Upgrade

[Bostoneer]

My present system is, I am told, a gravity fed hot water with radiators fed from an Ideal Mexico boiler in the kitchen. It has a Grundfos pump beside it. There are two tanks in the attic - a water tank and a smaller heating header tank. There is a hot water cylinder in the attic as well. The cylinder has a top mounted Immersion heater element which has just been renewed.

The reason for the immersion heater renewal was that over the past week or so I have noticed that our hot water quantity dropped (one bath and that was it) and the other day - no hot water at all, just luke warm at the taps. The radiators seemed OK.
To get hot water I switched on the old immersion heater and it tripped the breaker. Called the Plumber.
He looked at the reason for no hot water and I see he changed a small valve located in the attic (I'm not quite sure what it does). He then with some difficulty changed the immersion heater which was blown.

Result - the radiators work as normal (but this was not at issue anyway), but still no hot water - now stone cold. I then used the immersion heater (new) and it gave us hot water, but not a lot.
Tried it again this morning and cold water only at the taps. Unable to get into attic these days and got a friend to look at the immersion heater and found the hot cylinder was stone cold and he also found and reset what appears to be the immersion heater trip (he took off the top cover).
Tried it again and it worked this - we got hot water.
My question is - Why did it trip? (it was on for 1 hour) and will it do it again? I certainly can't keep resetting it.

Can't get the plumber for some days owing to holidays etc. but he did say that the tanks in the atic were in a poor state - full of gunge, red clay etc and he was concerned that the feed pipes? could be also clogged up.

My friend also looked at the tanks today and said he could not believe how bad they were. The reason is that we are on a private Estate run water supply (around 300 houses in the area) and we've had lots and lots of trouble with broken main supplies, leaks and so on and we often have dirty brown water for some periods over the last few years. Looks to have clogged everything.

So - to my main question and because of this - would it be worth considering a full upgrade to a system without tanks at all. I understand Combi? systems or Torrent? do this.

We are a one level cottage, 11 radiators, 1 bathroom with bath and shower (booster pump on the shower), water pressure is not very high but will operate/fill the dishwasher usually. The Ideal Mexico is I remember one of the big ones - as the cottage (once two) is quite long and we needed the larger output.
To sort out and clean/flush tanks and pipes could be quite a messy job and the house is not long redecorated, so perhaps a complete modern rethink is in order, But what?

Any advice or comment would be very much appreciated. (in fairness I have not yet asked my Plumber this same question -as I've just thought about it today (I will ask him when I see him...)

PS - I also note that when the hot water setting is ON at the CH controller, the pump runs? Why should it do this if gravity fed? (or am I not understanding the system?)

 

[Simon F]

Hello and:welcome:

the best person to ask is your plumber, who has the benefit of seeing the complete set up.
all though you seem to have a reasonable grasp of some aspects of the system,
I think there is a bit of confusion as to what is meant by gravity fed

 

[Bostoneer]

Hello and:welcome:

the best person to ask is your plumber, who has the benefit of seeing the complete set up.
all though you seem to have a reasonable grasp of some aspects of the system,
I think there is a bit of confusion as to what is meant by gravity fed

Many thanks for your comment Simon F.
You are right there is quite a bit of confusion, but I'm sure I'll get there. The bit about the CH Grundfos pump running when Water Heating only is selected on the programmer does puzzle me however as I thought it was for radiator circulation only. Once the water was heated in the cylinder, then opening the tap would draw off the water from the cylinder and this would be gravity pressure - at whatever Bar the height from the tap was.
I concur my Plumber is the man to ask - but additional information is always useful and alternative thoughts very welcome.

 

[kay-jay]

Could be a fully pumped system. Is pump fitted before the motorized valves and cylinder?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bostoneer]

Could be a fully pumped system. Is pump fitted before the motorized valves and cylinder?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Ah you have me Kay-Jay.... All I know is the Grundfos is beside the boiler in the kitchen - so presumably the first thing in the system connected directly into the boiler.
Valves I know nothing of - except the Plumber did change the only one he found in the attic.
However no doubt when I see him he'll tell me all!

 

[kay-jay]

If you have 2 PIPES From boiler apart from the gas its fully pumped system with that pump location

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jtsplumbing]

If a gravity you will have 2 x pipes 22mm for heating and another 2 x pipes 28m or 32mm depending what was fitted !! private water supply can cause loads of problems, with plumbing systems, how did you heat your water B4,? did you use boiler or immersion ?? red sludge in tanks not a good sign could be corrosion taking place, if hot water tank is in loft , is the cold water storage tank and expansion tank above this ??

 

[Bostoneer]

If a gravity you will have 2 x pipes 22mm for heating and another 2 x pipes 28m or 32mm depending what was fitted !! private water supply can cause loads of problems, with plumbing systems, how did you heat your water B4,? did you use boiler or immersion ?? red sludge in tanks not a good sign could be corrosion taking place, if hot water tank is in loft , is the cold water storage tank and expansion tank above this ??

Unfortunately can't tell pipe size or location at the moment as unable to physically get to or see these. Though I seem to recall that the pipes from the boiler are really quite big - they are boxed in and behind kitchen units today. Normally we have Calor Gas boiler heated CH system (Ideal Mexico boiler in the kitchen) and in the attic, we have a hot cylinder and above that at the highest point we have a cold water tank plus a smaller header tank which I assume is to feed the radiators. These are both plastic, but the sludge is I am sure red clay and earth residue from the many mains bursts we've had over the years and this has simply started to block everything up.

We're getting hot water at the moment using the immersion heater (after my friend reset it), but the Calor Gas/boiler system is NOT heating the water at all now - just the radiators which thankfully are still working. As to pumped v un-pumped - all I can say is the the hot and cold water pressures are quite different. The hot from the tank is gravity from the loft I'm sure but the cold has a definitely higher flow rate. Note our shower has a booster pump fitted as I recall the mains flow we had years ago was not really good enough - it was too gentle a shower if you like. So I assume if a booster fitted, the system is unlikely to be pumped as such.

Hoping to see the plumber on Monday to try and resolve the gas/boiler NOT heating the water issue, so I'll ask him what alternatives there are to NOT having tanks in the attic etc. if applicable and whether feasible or indeed practical in our circumstances.

 

[jtsplumbing]

If boiler is working for heating then boiler not the problem ! quite a basic boiler, you may have air lock on gravity side or blockage in pipes to cylinder, you would benifit by the sounds from a good system clean even power flush, check that water from small tank is getting into system ! could be that water leval is to low to gravitate !

 

[jase158]

just my opinion but you need to weigh things up. get a plumber in and get 2 prices.

1. to flush system,replace cylinder (if needed) as may be clogged up with limescale, and replace bits as needed
2. to replace system for combi

hard to know without seeing.

Also thermostat is tripping as it is over heating. This may have been a problem before but not noticed because old thermostats didnt have a trip switch.

Most likely limescale in my opinion but may be something else.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Aside from all the other problems look at fitting a filter to your incoming cold main. It will eliminate all the muck before it gets into your system.

 

[Bostoneer]

Aside from all the other problems look at fitting a filter to your incoming cold main. It will eliminate all the muck before it gets into your system.

Thanks folks for your comments and good suggestions. Hope to see the plumber sometime tomorrow and myself I'm leaning towards the "clogging up" theory.
I'll be asking for a quote as suggested to clean/flush etc. the entire system to ensure the feed pipes and tanks are clean (may ask for new tanks as these are really awful) and have him assess the hot cylinder to make sure it is (a) filling fully, and (b) nor clogged up (note we have no lime scaling here in this area). If indeed it IS then I'll have it renewed.
Until I know the state of the hot cylinder I'll be unable to assess the immersion heater tripping business, though obviously this will not be a priority if I manage to get the gas/boiler to cylinder feed and tanks cleaned etc and working.

Been looking more into Combi systems, but fear that the water pressure and flow rates here may be too low to be an improvement, even though I would love to see the disappearance of tanks in the attic. I did a quick check on the flow rate of the cold mains at the kitchen tap and it's approximately 8.5 litres per minute, which I would guess is on the low side for Combi.

Thanks again for all your input - hopefully tomorrow or very soon I'll talk with the plumber and he'll hopefully investigate everything and come up with a plan, which I would think is very much along the lines of your suggestions.
I DO like the idea of a mud/particulate filter arrangement, though it would have to be sited at the rising mains - AND with easy access AND be able to be cleaned out. I have some concerns that this would possibly reduce the flow rate further (we used to have a metal/particulate and UV filter set on the drinking water but it did reduce the tap flow to unacceptable levels) but in any event I'll ask the plumber on that as well.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Think with the type of water supply that you have , I would stay away from combi boilers, you would be better off upgradeing to a fully pumped system !.

 

[Bostoneer]

Think with the type of water supply that you have , I would stay away from combi boilers, you would be better off upgradeing to a fully pumped system !.

Hi and thanks for your suggestion. I had the plumbers around this morning and they decided that I was not getting hot water because of the sludge build up in the little header tank in the attic. Either the outlets were blocked, or a blockage in the feed pipes to the cylinder or maybe the coil in the hot cylinder was blocked.
They drained down the system at the Grundfoss pump near the boiler, removed the header tank which was unbelievably clogged up, cleaned it thoroughly and changed a washer on the now cleaned ball-cock - then replaced the tank back into the attic.
Unscrewed the feed in and out pipes on the hot cylinder and confirmed no blockage there, then worked along the feed pipes. In the event they found the blockage at a pipe bend not far from the tank - this they cleaned out and not finding any other evidence they re-connected the system.
Fired up the boiler and switched ON the hot water and central heating. Feed-in pipes soon heated up as did the hot cylinder. GREAT NEWS - hot water working.
Radiators now of course were somewhat erratic, some heating, others not. Checked the attic again and found in the two different attics (we have two from the old cottages now joined) a pair (each) Air Cocks which were manual. One snapped as it was so old and weakened, but they sorted that and tweaked them all, did a bit of simple radiator bleeding to the get rid of all air blockages.
All radiators now working as normal - Hot water as required - BINGO!

It appears then we have a pumped CH system with a motorized valve in the attic plus a gravity feed hot water cylinder system.

My plumbers did not recommend a Main system of any kind as the water pressure here is not only low, it is also unreliable, so a header tank system at least gives us some on site water in the event of a main failure.
So today I have the system running as it should and I'm very happy with it - however I will have the plumbers in annually from now on to service/maintain the system instead of leaving it alone and out of sight, out of mind for more years than I care to remember.

As for alternative system ideas? - Well I'll hang on to this as is for a while yet and the moral of the tale for me is - Get it looked at every year - it makes sense and will be worth every penny.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Glad you have it sorted, what was their thoughts about cleaning the system ? Heav'y duty cleanser (Fernox F5) good rinse out then add inhibitor (Fernox F3).

 

[Bostoneer]

Glad you have it sorted, what was their thoughts about cleaning the system ? Heav'y duty cleanser (Fernox F5) good rinse out then add inhibitor (Fernox F3).

Well! This has been quite a day.
Thought the hot water was heating OK until I switched on the system at about 8.30 tonight. Wife decided to have a bath at about 10.30 and the water was only luke warm!
We checked the hot cylinder and it was barely warm at the top to the touch and was stone cold halfway down. The feed in and out from the boiler to the internal coil was stone cold too at the cylinder.
So obviously no hot water is getting from the boiler to the cylinder coil.
The radiator heating side is great - all radiators hot and as they should be. I can also hear and feel the Grundfoss pump at the boiler - so it's running.

I know they changed a motorized valve somewhere - perhaps it's not working as it should?

Very disappointed - and I'll be on the phone to them tomorrow I guess! (also nobody mentioned system cleaning).

LATEST ***
Called Plumber and he was out in about 30 minutes (pretty good I call that!) - Said was absolutely sure the cylinder was heating before he left the other day. Popped up into the attic and confirmed the tank and feed pipes stone cold - unscrewed the in-tank feed pipe and lots of air escaped. Did the same with the out-tank pipe and immediately the feeds started getting VERY hot, almost too hot to touch. We waited a few minutes and the cylinder itself started to rise in temperature.
He's pretty sure that was the problem and said ANY problems phone and he'll come ASAP. At that time he would also run a cleaning agent through the entire system which could only do good.

We were out for a few hours and on our return found we had lovely hot water from the tap again (very hot). We checked the cylinder in the attic and it was very much back to normal - very hot , feed pipes also and everything is as it should be.

Hot water problems now over and my congratulations to our Plumber - excellent service and his invoice when gets here it will be paid by return - with thanks!

Also many thanks to everyone who responded, commented and contributed - I appreciate each and every one one of you - Good job!