Very bad leak from upstairs Bathrooms - Urgent Need for Help & Advice

[Pgeddon]

Hi all,

This may be a slightly lengthy one, but i'm having a seriously rough time with a bad leak in the ceiling of the downstairs bathroom. Coming from the upstairs master bathroom shower, en-suite shower, and en-suite sinks. It started with us noticing damp patches on the wall a couple days back. But now for lack of a better phrase, it's p*ssing water through when using the showers or en-suite sinks. (note: bathroom sinks and toilets are fine, see floorplan layout later on)

I'm posting on here because I had a home emergency person from the insurance here this morning to try and find & isolate the leak. He tried to find the problem by a large hole in the ceiling in the downstairs bathroom for access, but didn't see a single pipe and in the end wasn't able to locate the source of the problem. See the video below.

He didn't find any pipes but did notice that there was a slit in one of the chipboard pieces (38 secs in the above video) and when he put a screwdriver through, that shown that there was another noticeably sized space above the chipboard.

It's worth mentioning that this property was formerly a bungalow and was extended to a 2 story by a non contactable owner of the past. The reason I mention this is because each of the rooms in the upstairs does have a step up into them, (including the en-suite), and based on the advice I was given earlier; these rooms may have essentially a double layered cavity between the ground floor ceiling and upstairs floor. Pictures of step up and en-suite below



The home emergency person's assumption was, although irregular, because of this extra step up and no evidence of pipework below the chipboard/above ceiling, he said it's very likely the pipes and the problem are in the layer between the chipboard and the en-suite floor.....Does that sound correct/possible?...

Based off of that guidance the next strategy is to start taking up the oak floor in the en-suite which is a shame. So to try and minimise how many pieces have to come up, i'm trying to figure out a 'best guess' as to where the problem could be.

Fortunately I do have a floorplan of the upstairs and downstairs and have attached them below (purple X marks where the chipboard was the most sodden, which interestingly puts the X almost directly in the middle of the en-suite above it.

Red is the toilets and soilpipes.
Green is the sinks, showers
Blue is the sinks and showers waste pipes as far as the eye can see.

Worth mentioning again at this point that, the problem is coming from Master Bathroom shower, Ensuite shower, and En suite sinks (both toilets fine, sinks in master bathroom fine)

What i'm finding very odd as shown on the layout above and in the video beneath the en-suite shower below Is - the sinks and shower seem to all run into the stud wall. So i'm really at a loss as to how they all connect now....

I am sorry for the lengthy post, I am stressing a bit, but I guess my questions are :-

:- Could it be possible and a sensible guess that; the en-suite shower runs into the wall to the south of it and joins onto the pipe coming from the master bathroom shower then they both run under the oak floor to the purple X to connect to the two sinks, then they all run north to the soil pipe? or is that silly?

:- Is it completely ridiculous to assume there's plumbing pipes beneath the oak floor but above the chipboard and no point ripping it up? If so, then where else could these pipes be located?

Lastly If any of you have any thoughts or have come across anything like this before i'd really appreciate your feedback and input on it. As you'll see on the video below (just from running the shower for 1min!) it really is quite bad and I do appreciate any help and guidance you can offer at this stage.

thanks and hope to hear from you,

P

 

[Ben-gee]

Anything is possible.

One is only guessing where pipes go unless you can see them. A good start is to start measuring off from a fixed point (eg window) to ascertain whether you have any unusually thick walls- these may contain extra voids for pipe runs.
Methodically map out walls and any visible pipes to build up a picture -don’t assume ‘oh that’s directly above that’ , there are quite often hidden spaces particularly in older properties that have been altered.

When you’ve got a good idea of what’s what it is time to start opening up inspection holes in wall/floors/ceilings.

Start with whichever will be easiest to repair and is likely to show something new, based on what you now know about the layout.

Alternatively buy/hire an endoscope, surprisingly cheap nowadays, however bear in mind that to affect any repair will require access so holes will have to be made at some point (no need to butcher it quite like that ceiling, dismantle rather than destroy).

Stop using the leaky items?!

 

[Aquarius]

In that second video where it’s concentrated more on the timber, which appears to be black not wet, it’s very wet at the front. If it’s only whilst the shower is in use, I’d start there, with the trap and any silicone seal joints.

 

[snowhead]

If the Oak floor is dry I wouldn't start lifting that yet, it may be possible to find the problem without it.

I'll guess it's probably a push fit waste joint that's come out of a fitting, didn't have enough or any clips on. It doesn't look like there's any support on the waste under the shower.

Where the water is running through the floor is not always where the leak is, it's just a weak point with the join.

But as it's soaked it's probably the easiest place to pull the chipboard down or cut a hole in it enough to look above or to stick a camera phone through the hole.

Somewhere below there must be a 110mm soil pipe from the ensuite WC that has the shower /basin waste joined into, or rather not at the moment.

 

[gmartine]

Got to be the shower trap or surround thats at fault hasnt it, why else would the the water look like its pooled underneath it only and run away from that spot ? Video 2

OP, get a bucket of water and see. Stick a tray underneath the trap to catch any leaks.

 

[Pgeddon]

It's not just the shower that's causing the problem, it's both showers and the his and hers sinks in the en-suite too. You can see a very small drip from under the shower but wouldn't justify or marry up to this volume of water.

i've uploaded another video after a bit more investigating below. Thanks for the advice for ripping a bit of the upper layer sodden chipboard down. Where it was at it's wettest a bit was ripped down, and have found the 40mm(?) pipe. video below.

As you can see it's frustratingly very close to the load bearing wall to the left making access to it rather difficult from below. But interestingly, I updated it's position on the floorplan below and it appears to be right in in line with the vertical soil pipe (red circle) and must assume it runs straight to it?

Updated position upstairs.

So I guess I now have a smaller surface area to locate it from above in ripping up the oak floor and floorboards beneath it...

The bit thats still confusing me however is - this leak also happens when using either of the sinks in the en-suite. So that must mean the problem must be after the point that they connect to the 40mm shower waste pipe right?...In which case the problem must be between the X and the vertical soil pipe (red circle) right?....or no? as weirdly it doesnt seem as damp up there, so far it seems damper south of the X


thanks for all your help and responses so far.


P

 

[Pgeddon]

Update, good news and bad news.

Good :- The offending section of pipe was found and has been replaced by a new piece. We're not sure how yet but it was completely broken in half. In the picture below you'll see, but that hasn't been cut. it was literally like that in the cavity.

At a bit of a loss as to how it got like that, but it has been replaced now.

Bad News :- Both the insurance surveyor and my plumber were out this morning to get upto date with what was going on. Their opinion is that the chipboard is so wet that leaving it in will cause alot of issues. So unfortunately that's oak floor up, top layer of chipboard up, 3x4's between the two layers of chipboard up. rip out and replace the lower layer of chipboard atop the joists, and then put everything back and make good.....

Going to be a a big job in the end, but at least we found it, and at least we're covered.

Thanks for all your help!

P

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

What a story......thank God it’s sorted....Had water pour through the garage ceiling, although this was identified very quickly, as I had recently changed a sink ‘pop up waste’ in the shower room.....in doing so the waste pipe became disconnected from a push fit elbow under the floorboard.....had to cut a hole in the garage ceiling to access it, wasn’t easy easy, but while that was being replaced , the other end of the soil pipe at the other end of the garage ceiling pulled out of another push fit into the soil pipe.....had to cut another hole in the garage ceiling, all fixed now......I suppose if I had paid my local plumber £50 to fit the new click clack waste this wouldn’t ( presumably ) have happened.....a lesson learnt, don’t tug on pipes that go into concealed spaces.....be gentle.....

just thinking I should have written down the routes of water & waste pipes & cables, when I had an extension built, always so difficult to remember years later.....so many ‘ buried in walls, run over ceiling spaces etc. My builder was not a tidy man 🤯

 

[Pgeddon]

Yeah, I must say having the floor plan was incredibly helpful, it was like a treasure map, but instead of gold at the end, it could've cost me loads of money instead.... haha.

May have more positive news, as the builders who've inspected so far can see only the bottom layer of the two layers of chipboard are soaking...they've not took all the ceiling down yet to see properly but hoping that is the case as it would mean we can just prop the upper layer up with some accros, cut the mouldy bottom layer away as it is not structural. In that scenario hopefully, it means we dont have to be p*ssing about ripping up the oak floor above.

All in all feeling better about it, compared to last Monday atleast!

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Yeah, I must say having the floor plan was incredibly helpful, it was like a treasure map, but instead of gold at the end, it could've cost me loads of money instead.*** haha.

May have more positive news, as the builders who've inspected so far can see only the bottom layer of the two layers of chipboard are soaking...they've not took all the ceiling down yet to see properly but hoping that is the case as it would mean we can just prop the upper layer up with some accros, cut the mouldy bottom layer away as it is not structural. In that scenario hopefully, it means we dont have to be p*ssing about ripping up the oak floor above.

All in all feeling better about it, compared to last Monday atleast!

Good news indeed, I do feel your pain, along with my other story, a few years ago, water poured through the ceiling in a ground floor extension room during torrential rain. I had buckets and bowls all over the floor, on top of a sheet of tarpaulin. The ceiling didn’t get damaged apart from yellow water stains ( from the insulation ).
I phoned a local flat roofing ‘ specialist, who on the very next day completely repaired the flat roof, looked very professional, plus guaranteed for life 👍. A year later, again during heavy rain, water started pouring out of the light fitting, had filled up the large chrome ceiling rose and was splashing on the wooden floor......same routine tarpaulin & buckets and bowls, phoned the flat roofing company, they came round immediately and said they couldn’t see how it could get through the flat roof...but investigated and found a horizontal crack along the rendered wall a few inches above the roof. The following day, they ran a strip of bitumen all along the wall, bonding it with the roof felt with hot tar. He only charged me for the materials £10.....which I thought extremely fair, as the fault had nothing to do with the flat roof. That was several years ago and been perfect ever since, but every time I walk into the room during rain, I expect to see 💧💦💧 pouring from the ceiling, think those images will never go away......

take care and keep safe 🙏

 

[Pgeddon]

Glad you got it sorted, it does take a while to get over the PTSD of it, had many property problems over the years but never one quite like this! I think next time i'll just build a house from scratch so I know where everything is!!

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Glad you got it sorted, it does take a while to get over the PTSD of it, had many property problems over the years but never one quite like this! I think next time i'll just build a house from scratch so I know where everything is!!

excellent idea.....my Builder was a nightmare, found light switches under the floorboards being used as junction boxes....🤯

 

[WC1]

just thinking I should have written down the routes of water & waste pipes & cables, when I had an extension built, always so difficult to remember years later.***.so many ‘ buried in walls, run over ceiling spaces etc. My builder was not a tidy man 🤯

Good idea. Whenever I am doing work or more particularly having work done by others a few pictures of pipes and wires before second fix is invaluable.