Flood

[Royal]

I am a self employed Bench Joiner with limited plumbing skills. I helped a collegue plumb in a bathroom, the collegue knows I am not a qualified plumber. One of the connectors failed (plactic pipe) flooding the property and resulted in a claim being made against the collegue (£10,000). I was working as casual labour. Now the collegue want me to contribute to the £10,000. As he is the contractor am I to blame?

 

[SimonG]

That's what public liability insurance is for. Don't leave home without it.

I take it that your 'colleague' isn't a plumber either?

 

[clarky101]

Got insurance.... Might need to make a claim...

 

[Rickster123]

I'd change my mobile number and move! This thread is a perfect example to newbees on the need for insurance.

 

[Royal]

The collegue happens to be my Brother. He is a carpenter. He should have Public L Insurance, but I have read that the insurance might not cover plastic.

 

[Rickster123]

Then get your brother to phone them and check the small print. Surely that's the first course of action?

 

[Royal]

Think he has. That is why he is expecting me to contribute

 

[clarky101]

Christ what did you & your brother do.....hammer nails into the pipe...

 

[Rickster123]

Think he has. That is why he is expecting me to contribute

Then I think you have two options. 1 is fall out with your brother and 2 is to contribute to the 10 grand. But you never really liked him anyway did you?!

 

[SimonG]

It's not so easy this plumbing lark is it?

Trying not to sound too smug, but you may find that your brother's insurance won't cover it. When you say a plastic connection failed did you use inserts in the pipe and pressure test the installation to the pressure recommended by the manufacturer?

 

[Royal]

As i said earlier. on of the connectors failed. What I need to know is who is at fault? the contactor or his employee (me)?

 

[clarky101]

Who fitted it....you ?

 

[Royal]

My thoughts excatly. Inserts were used through out but don't think a pressure test was done.

 

[Royal]

Me yes.

 

[Rickster123]

Bottom line is mate if he was the contractor then he is the one they will chase for money now. But it also comes down to decency and family loyalty.

 

[SimonG]

Ultimately contractor at fault. He should have had public liability and employers liability.

Can't he get in and put the damage right and bypass the insurance side. It'll be a lot cheaper.

It puts you in a difficult position though with it being your brother.

 

[clarky101]

Like your man AP said, help out as you fitted it or bale out....choices choices...

 

[on31ll]

would he pay if shoe was on the other foot ? do you think yourself you should pay ?

 

[Royal]

Dilema, the flood happened over X-mas 2011, client had to get an emergency plumber out on boxing day, must be a lot of damage for 10k

 

[on31ll]

if i built a staircase with my colleague and it fell apart and caused damage and i was contractor i dont think i would chase him for the money. because end of the day i know hes not a joiner neither am i

 

[clarky101]

So... Why now....is there more to this

 

[on31ll]

2011 and your hearing about it now ?

 

[on31ll]

and you can get to 10k before you know it !

 

[Royal]

Claim against him has been going one for a while.

 

[Ray Stafford]

The legal situation depends on exactly where the contract(s) exist, and their nature.

For example, I am assuming that your brother had a contract with the client, and therefore owed them a duty of care. This doesn't have to be a written document - a contract can be established verbally, or inferred from actions (like doing the work and accepting payment).

In terms of your contractual relationship with your brother, it depends on the terms that you were working on. If he was paying you a day rate of £xx to help with the job, then I don't think he has any legal claim on you. On the other hand, if you agreed to work for a share of the profit, then he may have a case that you were a party to the contract with the customer.

Legal arguments and family don't mix very well.

 

[clarky101]

if i built a staircase with my colleague and it fell apart and caused damage and i was contractor i dont think i would chase him for the money. because end of the day i know hes not a joiner neither am i

his brother not a plumber either, probable cash job......

 

[Royal]

We had done her kitchen a few months before and went back to refurbish the bathroom. all new stuff. My bro project managed the job. All on the books.

 

[Royal]

Thanks for your input. Now to decide wether to contribute or not. Maybe give him back the £80 per day over 5 days.

 

[on31ll]

end of the day he has no legal grip on you if you where being paid per day as ray has stated. i know it doesnt help know but if the insurence says no to plastic then cover your own back and dont use it. i have seen a few bathrooms completed by joiners and the quality has been good but you need to have some experiance or training on the plumbing even if it is basic. plastic pipe is easy to work with and isnt to hard to get right if you remeber the inserts but somehow it hasnt gone right for you.

 

[on31ll]

why doesnt his insurence cover plastic ?

 

[theanalyst]

Tell him to go bust..... Then start up again. They won't get anything then. Don't you watch cowboy builders?? lol
I would also be wanting independent expert reports verifying this £10,000 in damage. The customer could be pulling a fast one on the value.

 

[Rickster123]

why doesnt his insurence cover plastic ?

Because it was cheap and worthless insurance. Read the small print!

 

[plumber0808]

I bet it was speedfit on hep... Caaaaboooooom.
waaahhheeeyyy

 

[villa_tom]

What's happened to family loyalty?

if this happened with me and my brother we'd help each other. I don't understand this should I legally have to pay. Legally maybe not, but morally yes.

The bottom line is, you shouldn't do things your not qualified to do.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Wonder if they pushed onto old 3/4 without knowing

 

[mfgs]

I wouldn't want to be on a lifeboat with you. Cant believe you have come to an internet forum to try and make your mind up on a dispute with your own brother.

 

[kay-jay]

why doesnt his insurence cover plastic ?

He is a joiner. His insurance won't cover him for works outside his scope. This is why you specify a trade when taking out a pli policy.

Similarly my pli doesn't cover me for electrical works because i am not trading as or qualified as one.

 

[Destroyer2813]

I did think that Kay reading through this thread, mega screwed would be the term i"d use

 

[kay-jay]

I did think that Kay reading through this thread, mega screwed would be the term i"d use

Even if he was covered i doubt they would pay out under the circumstances.....it wasn't pressure tested in accordance with the mi's usually ten bar or so. This whacking great pressure forces the grab ring to bite and guarantees fittings won't fail. Or if they did the manufacturers warranty would be in force as it would then be installed correctly. Manufacturer can verify pressure testing has taken place or not by assessing the extent to which the ring has grabbed the pipe.



So yes royally screwed......

 

[Rickster123]

Even if he was covered i doubt they would pay out under the circumstances.....it wasn't pressure tested in accordance with the mi's usually ten bar or so. This whacking great pressure forces the grab ring to bite and guarantees fittings won't fail. Or if they did the manufacturers warranty would be in force as it would then be installed correctly. Manufacturer can verify pressure testing has taken place or not by assessing the extent to which the ring has grabbed the pipe.



So yes royally screwed......

I see what you did there at the end. You're wasted on this lot Kay jay!

 

[gassafe]

Why would his liability insurance pay? He is a carpenter doing plumbing! The insurers are not to be expected to cover your plumbing jobs on the side!

it would be the same as a plumber not gas qualified fitting a boiler that went bang! You don't have cover so will have to foot the bill yourself.

 

[lame plumber]

Funny but my insurance is for plumbing and heating, doesnt cover carpentry, but as I'm a clever little sod I included the option of property maintenance to cover all the odd jobs such as tiling, studding etc that I end up doing. Although I'm sorry to see you in this position, its no surprise and prehaps its a lesson to all those who like to dabble in areas they have no experience! Re: who's to blame, its both of you and youd better sort things out pronto as costs will only rise if you leave things to build up.

 

[peteheat]

Why did nobody answer the phone when the customer discovered the leak?

I have a mobile dedicated to my customers for after sales service and of course future business with them, when it rings day or night I know it's someone I did a job for so unlike the other phone it gets answered 24 / 7.

If you had been first on the scene you would know if it was a faulty fitting or your fault, either way your priority is to limit the damage to a minimum.

I would fix the problem, clean up and when the property is back to pre-damage condition let the blame game begin, looks to me like someone dropped the ball where customer communication is concerned.

Most carpenters I know have general contractors insurance, I have it linked to my my policy as specialist heating and plumbing contractor it doesn't cost much extra and covers a multitude.

From what I read here you were a day labourer doing a bit of plumbing, since it's your brother give him back the £400.00 everyone has to learn from this, next job he does he will make sure everyone has proper cover to protect him and the customer.

 

[lambchop]

Royal, your not a plumber and your brother is only too aware of this, so why employ someone who is not qualified and set up properly to do this work!? (obviously. trying to make as much money as poss from the client) Yes you made a mistake but you come under your brother insurance as you were a subby (always wise to have your own PLI). Its unlikely they will pay out in this scenario and who can blame them.


I feel for sorry for the client as he may not be aware that he wasnt employing professionally qualified people, if he was, well another case of cheap job & getting bitten in bum!

 

[Guest123]

Why did the plastic fitting blow off? Was it incorrectly installed or no insert. Please let us know as with this information you'll be helping other novice members on the forum to avoid the same mistakes.

Hope you get things sorted out.

 

[dancinplumba]

I bet it was speedfit on hep... Caaaaboooooom.
waaahhheeeyyy

?? Why should that make any difference ???

 

[oily-rag]

The plumber should have public liability and you were simply employed by him. If he does not have any insurance then he should not have been carrying out any work. This is a typical example of how minority of self-employed plumbers spoil it for the majority.

 

[clarky101]

His brother who took the job on is a chippy....

 

[Howsie]

I feel for the customer.

Don't do anything you're not comfortable with. If I were you, give him his cash back and leave it at that. I doubt his insurance will cover this, easy get out for them IMHO.