Freeze incoming main lead pipe (irregular shape)

[NJD1977]

Hi

I have a problem with an internal stop-tap which has seized open (tried penetrating oil / spanner etc - the spindle will move but only a little bit back and forth). There is no evidence of an external stop tap in the pavement although I have called United Utilities to do a trace and locate in the next few days, but they have said even if they locate where it might be, it is highly unlikely they will excavate and expose as they no longer deem it a requirement / obligation for them to have external stop taps.

The internal stop tap has 15mm copper wiped into the existing lead pipe. Where the wipes are the lead pipe is irregular in diameter ranging from 22mm to ~30mm. If I use a 28mm freeze kit on this and straddle over the lead wipes (from 22mm below the wipe to 15mm copper above the wrap) is this likely to be successful? Also is there any problems in principle with freezing so close to the elbow. I have attached a photo which speaks a thousand words.

Also - I presume electric hired freeze machines are not suitable for lead? They all just refer to copper/steel.

Many thanks for any views / help.

 

[NJD1977]

Alternatively, am I best to hire an electric pipe freezer which has small contact clamps and try to freeze the short section of vertical copper before the elbow? The clamps are around 50mm long and it looks like I could just about get a clamp onto this section before the elbow. They are about £50/day but at least once they are frozen there's no rush to get the new stop tap fitted.

 

[glasgowplumber]

If you're not a plumber I'd stay clear of that to be honest. Get somebody in

 

[tolly]

Have you tried loosening the packing gland nut off first, its the nut nearest to the round spindle. Loosen it off with a spanner, then get two pair of grips, use one to hold the body of the stopcock and the other around the handle of the stopcock to turn and give you some leverage.

 

[tolly]

That existing stopcock doesn't look in the worst condition

 

[NJD1977]

That existing stopcock doesn't look in the worst condition

No it's not, it's only around 10yrs old and was working fine on and off all last week (as we were replacing a bathroom and regularly turning on/off), then it suddenly jammed open on Monday. It's really strange why it would suddenly jam, I can only think a thread has caught and misaligned in the spindle............if this is even possible.

 

[NJD1977]

Have you tried loosening the packing gland nut off first, its the nut nearest to the round spindle. Loosen it off with a spanner, then get two pair of grips, use one to hold the body of the stopcock and the other around the handle of the stopcock to turn and give you some leverage.

No I haven't tried this yet as I didn't want to cause the gland to leak and not be able to fix it or isolate the water from the road. I am due to go on holiday for a week tomorrow and last thing I need is a leaking pipe immediately before I go. Am I likely to cause leaks by loosening the gland nut?

 

[NJD1977]

If you're not a plumber I'd stay clear of that to be honest. Get somebody in

I wasn't going to do it myself, my Father in law is a time served plumber with 40yrs experience so he was going to do it, but he's not done much pipe freezing in the past, and not on mains pressure lead before..............so I'm asking for him really as he's not very internet savvy!

 

[brum]

hi there if it was me doing it I would remove earth strap and freeze pipe just there.Make sure there is no water movement ie no taps open etc as moving water will not freeze.have dust sheets and towels spread around pipe with new stoptap and tools to hand be quick and fit the tap on downstream side first making sure tap is closed after fitting (I would fit tap with tap open in case of thawing and imm shut upon fitting-less resistance) towels are for worse case scenario when you will end up doing job live and get wet.Hope this helps don't forget to refit earth strap/
use of a temp continuity bond is advisable .

 

[Paulplumb]

You are trying to turn it the right way?

I would be surprised I couldn't get that tap to move. Maybe you're being a bit too gentle?

 

[NJD1977]

You are trying to turn it the right way?

I would be surprised I couldn't get that tap to move. Maybe you're being a bit too gentle?

Yeah turning clockwise, it only moves freely around a 1/10th of a turn before jamming tight. Father in law also put a spanner on it for extra leverage and tried to put as much force as he dared on it, but it wouldn't budge.

It doesn't sound like a traditional seizing issue (i.e. threads all bound together from corrosion / residue etc.) as it was working fine all weekend so it sounds more like some physical problem / blockage in the spindle threads. Is it even possible for a stop tap to cross thread? That's all I can think of really.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I'd be wary about freezing that to be honest....

 

[lame plumber]

lead and freezing equals big leak in my books, dont even go there esp mains pressure

 

[NJD1977]

lead and freezing equals big leak in my books, dont even go there esp mains pressure

Thanks for the response. What would be the course of action then? If I can't turn water off either inside or outside that's a situation that already gives me sleepless nights.

If I tell UU that I've had advice not to attempt to freeze the supply will they then be obligated to do something about the outside stop tap?

 

[T & H Plumbing]

stay clear and get a Plumber who knows what there doing, working on Mains pressure pipe is risky if you dont get the freeze right you going to be very wet

 

[PlumbBobBob]

what about when they fit a water meter? they would have to find it then

 

[SimonG]

Just do it live. Speed fit pipe cutter and a lead lock with a pipe and valve on that's open and a hose on to outside. Chances are you will get wet so you might as well plan to get wet and get it over with.

 

[townfanjon]

going back to your first post NJD, WTF, I cant believe united utilities / water board wont sort this for you. I regularly get them to find stoptaps, change them etc etc
Perhaps the clue is, united utiities , rather than the water board, but I am guessing or perhaps this is just a sign of the 'times'

 

[NJD1977]

going back to your first post NJD, WTF, I cant believe united utilities / water board wont sort this for you. I regularly get them to find stoptaps, change them etc etc
Perhaps the clue is, united utiities , rather than the water board, but I am guessing or perhaps this is just a sign of the 'times'

They said they don't even put them in on new builds anymore which I find hard to believe. If they find the location tomorrow my Father in Law said he will dig it out but I'm fairly sure he isn't allowed to do this!! He said he's done it before on plenty of jobs where stoptaps have been tarmaced over. I'm also not sure how accurately they can find the stop tap, I understand tracing the line as perfectly feasible but finding the stop trap location if its buried sounds like a stretch.

 

[anz]

Have you tried the bottom stoptap?

 

[brum]

:reddevil:ID Chappy hi there its only water whats the worst case flood..... keeps dust down lol brum (not the rusty old car but the rusty old geezer)

 

[tom609]

i have froze lead before not really had a problem

 

[stevetheplumber]

ive never had any problem freezing lead with the cans just follow the instructions there are two valves in that picture which are you tryiung to change? i assume the lower one is buggered and theyve wiped another one above

 

[WaterTight]

Looks to me like there is just enough copper to freeze straight after lead. But it's close to call so could be wrong.

I would never take that job in unless it was in my own house.

 

[NJD1977]

Have you tried the bottom stoptap?

Hi. The old lead stop tap beneath has had the handle and nearly all of the spindle cut off (presumably to fit the kitchen cupboards). I reckon they must have fitted the new wiped in stop tap then cut the handle off the old one. It's too short to even get mole grips on.

 

[NJD1977]

Looks to me like there is just enough copper to freeze straight after lead. But it's close to call so could be wrong.

I would never take that job in unless it was in my own house.

There is 50mm of copper between the lead pipe and the lip of the elbow fitting. If you include the elbow more like 60mm. I think this would accept an electric freeze clamp but with it being so close to both the elbow and the lead to copper wipe it puts doubt in my mind.

 

[NJD1977]

Loosened the gland nut tonight and sprayed liberally with wd40. Also put a heat gun on it, still no way of getting past the stuck point. The spindle moves freely within a short zone then just locks solid. I'm starting to think that perhaps the washer has split internally and is lodged against the valve casing inside stopping it rotating. If this is the case, how messy would it be to do a live swap of just the spindle and handle etc. The valve is a bs1010-2 so I presume if we buy a replacement tap, and just use the core, chances are it will be compatible. If we turn all other upstream traps etc on whilst we do it could we whip out the core of the old balls and screw in a new core without too much water loss?

 

[newcastle phill]

Is say if your gonna do a live swap. Have a plan B or a good insurance policy

Is there nowhere further downstream you could freeze and relocate the stop ?

 

[newcastle phill]

Further to that if your gonna do a live swap ensure that every tap is opened fully to relieve incoming pressure in the system

But if you do , and it will go toward the cost of repairs.......video it and stick it ln youtube and youve been framed

 

[Mike Jackson]

If United utilities don't come out and locate the stop tap call them and tell them that you have a leak and need to shut the water off but your internal stop tap has failed. They have a duty of care to prevent wastage of water.

 

[NJD1977]

UU have just sent a very helpful lady out. She put a Genny on the internal rising main and traced the exact line out to the pavement. Marked it up and raised a job order for Amey to come out and expose the stopcock and bring it back into usable condition. When I said that the person on the phone had advised this wouldn't happen she told me they have a mandate to do try to do everything they can to avoid costs and work but in this instance she agreed its risky to mess with the internal main with no way of shutting off at the pavement. It could take up to 2 weeks for them to do it but at least then its done. Feel a lot happier now and will just wait until the externals ate done before touching the internals. Thanks all for the advice.

 

[T & H Plumbing]

If United utilities don't come out and locate the stop tap call them and tell them that you have a leak and need to shut the water off but your internal stop tap has failed. They have a duty of care to prevent wastage of water.

They would if its on the outside boundry of the property, if its inside wont they tell him to contact a plumber?

 

[PhoenixServices]

They would if its on the outside boundry of the property, if its inside wont they tell him to contact a plumber?

I don't know about united utilities but Thames water come out all the time to stuff like this to help locate stop taps or put a new one in. United utilities should have a plan of where your outside stoptap should be.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i had one once where the inside stopcock was stuffed and i couldn't turn off the outside one because it was at an angle so couldn't get my key on it. the cust phoned southern water and it was sorted inside two hours with a brand new outside stopcock, i could then change the inside one.

 

[brum]

Hi this is my third post on this subject I done agency work back in 98 fitting water meters for severn trent they would rather you froze a pipe than done a trace maybe things have changed now ?This is how I have no probs freezing lead .