Hep2o pipe inserts?

[Cainan]

Now I have always and will always continue to use the hep2o pipe inserts on every single fittings, however a tiler who dabbles in the odd bit of plumbing now and again said he has NEVER used one when he has been using hep2o fittings but does use them for compression fittings. Now surely you need to use them on hep fittings aswell not just when you are crimping the pipework? I wouldn't feel safe in my house if he had been there that's for sure.

anyone know if maybe you don't need to? Or will get a few angry phone calls eventually?

 

[oz-plumber]

It depends on the Manufacturers Instructions.

If they deem them necessary, then you have to use them.
If you don't and there is a problem, you will be informed by the manufacturer that you haven't installed their pipe correctly.

Angry phone calls will probably be the least of your worries then.

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Always use them! They make sure the pipe doesn't distort under heat and release the gripper and off blows the fitting.
They also cover the end of the pipe, kind of like shamfearing (spelt wrong I know) to protect the 'o' ring.

 

[Howsie]

Ask him is he wears a seat belt and if he makes his children wear them.

 

[Cainan]

Yea I knew all this but glad to see other people think he's as stupid as I am, now I know they are a bit of a rip off and them 50 in a bag don't last long but better than having a flooded house.

 

[Howsie]

Exactly.

 

[Killy Bing]

Had a chat with the speedfit reps about this.

they awkwardly said that without the liners and under continuous heat with no "relaxation" time the pipe can oval slightly with a liner and leak, without one it just pulls off

its also linked to why you cant use plastic with secondary returns

 

[townfanjon]

a tiler who dabbles in the odd bit of plumbing now and again

OMFG
use them every time !!!!!
I dont use a lot of plastic, and I will only put speedfit fittings on speedfit pipe. Only hep on hep etc etc.

 

[Cainan]

Yea I don't use hep on speed fit the insert goes in to easy I use compression as I don't carry speed fit with me as I hate it.

 

[scorps]

Had a chat with the speedfit reps about this.

they awkwardly said that without the liners and under continuous heat with no "relaxation" time the pipe can oval slightly with a liner and leak, without one it just pulls off

its also linked to why you cant use plastic with secondary returns

Well I've never heard that :cry_smile:worked on massive new builds all with Hep secondary returns.I won't sleep now

 

[Koogatubac]

I dont use 'inserts' however this is my tactic i use when tackling all makes of plastic pipe:

- unravel the meter coil
- find the end and snip it with my rothenberger cutters
- snip Snip SNip SNIp SNIP!!!!
- get wrapped in the plastic
- walk around the house wrapped in plastic pipe and chase the customer
- grab my blow lamp
- BURN THAT PLASTIC DOWN TO THE GROUND
- employ a priest
- perform the exorcism
- defeat the plastic demon
- now i just use copper since i know soldered joints are more reliable

BOOOOOOOOMMM!!!!!

 

[Killy Bing]

Well I've never heard that :cry_smile:worked on massive new builds all with Hep secondary returns.I won't sleep now

I think it was polyplumb that had the biggest issue and caused the blanket ban

page 51

http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/wcssto...Res/std.lang.all/ti/on/Hep2o_Installation.pdf

 

[Cainan]

Just takes twice or more as long, but yes I too prefer copper but sometimes .......... Oh plastics great, well hep2o is hate speed fitspeed fit

 

[scorps]

I think it was polyplumb that had the biggest issue and caused the blanket ban

page 51

http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/wcssto...Res/std.lang.all/ti/on/Hep2o_Installation.pdf

Cheers KB.I won't be doing that again

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I dont use 'inserts' however this is my tactic i use when tackling all makes of plastic pipe:

- unravel the meter coil
- find the end and snip it with my rothenberger cutters
- snip Snip SNip SNIp SNIP!!!!
- get wrapped in the plastic
- walk around the house wrapped in plastic pipe and chase the customer
- grab my blow lamp
- BURN THAT PLASTIC DOWN TO THE GROUND
- employ a priest
- perform the exorcism
- defeat the plastic demon
- now i just use copper since i know soldered joints are more reliable

BOOOOOOOOMMM!!!!!

Does this get you any strange looks?

 

[Koogatubac]

This keeps me alive, my days of working are always like this lately

 

[Dannypipe]

Secondary returns in plastic used to be allowed. I priced up a job last year (maybe year before) and fortunately I was fitted UFH at the time, and read the gumf.

I saw no secondary returns allowed in plastic. Phoned rep, and technical it was something to do with the heat and chlorine if I remember correctly. (Havent' read KB's link).

So I priced it in copper, and used a coil of (soft) 15mm where it was a thread job. It worked a treat. I was careful not to kink it, or form any airlocks.

 

[Best]

The tiler is obviously an idiot & shouldn't be touching anything to do with plumbing.
Those inserts are critical to give a tapered end to the pipes or else the sharp straight cut on pipe will catch on the O ring & perhaps damage it. Also the inserts keep the pipe round. Other than these points, I think inserts can be left out on cold pipework, but why would you do without them?
That all said, I avoid plastic pipes & fittings unless I have to join up to them. Recently I had to work at fairly new pipework supplying a power shower unit in an attic all dome by a plumber. All was in plastic - mix of Hepworth, Speedfit & Polypipe pipe & fittings & no doubt inserts! There is no reason for doing this, so the plumber is incompetent IMO.

 

[Ermintrude]

You cannot use plastic on a secondary return due to the fact that it does not kill Legionella pneumophila . Where as copper and brass do on contact. Theory is that if water is sitting in return ( pump off) and you cycle cool 38c water where bacteria has multiplied, you then re circulate that 25% at top of cylinder, if water from plastic pipe bit hasn't been hot enough for long enough..... Some one is going to be ill.

 

[Best]

You cannot use plastic on a secondary return due to the fact that it does not kill Legionella pneumophila . Where as copper and brass do on contact. Theory is that if water is sitting in return ( pump off) and you cycle cool 38c water where bacteria has multiplied, you then re circulate that 25% at top of cylinder, if water from plastic pipe bit hasn't been hot enough for long enough..... Some one is going to be ill.

Now I hate plastic even more! :smile:
Just another thing to add to the list.

 

[gassafe]

That hep guide talks about 'continuous hot water loop' in non domestic situations... A secondary hot water loop would have a timer plus return stat if done correctly so I don't think a secondary hot water in a domestic house would count as continuous loop, unlike a hotel ot water type system??

There must be plenty of hep or plastic secondary returns out there...

Not sure about the legionella thing or we would not be able to use plastic on ot water systems would we?

 

[Killy Bing]

That hep guide talks about 'continuous hot water loop' in non domestic situations... A secondary hot water loop would have a timer plus return stat if done correctly so I don't think a secondary hot water in a domestic house would count as continuous loop, unlike a hotel ot water type system??

There must be plenty of hep or plastic secondary returns out there...

Not sure about the legionella thing or we would not be able to use plastic on ot water systems would we?

The timer is irrelevant apparently as it can be set to 24 hours.

this is why i like the plumbing shows like phex, you can fire away questions at them.
if they fail miserably then they give you freebies.
or ravenheat who bought me a few pints...

 

[gassafe]

The timer is irrelevant apparently as it can be set to 24 hours.

this is why i like the plumbing shows like phex, you can fire away questions at them.
if they fail miserably then they give you freebies.
or ravenheat who bought me a few pints...

Custards can run ther central heating 24 hours, but the hep will not go oval, distort and pull apart because it has not managed to have a relax cooling cycle...?

 

[gassafe]

Found this on the hep site, the continuous loop refers to hotels & care homes etc.... But they still say its not suitable for domestic properties...

A continuously operated re-circulating system is a water-replenished circulating system which is maintained at a constant high temperature to provide a constant source of hot water. Continuously operated re-circulating systems are used to distribute constant hot water to wards or rooms that may be distant from the heat source or hot water storage vessel. Locations where continuously operated re-circulating systems installations are used include, but are not limited to, residential care homes, hospitals and hotels. Continuously operated re-circulating systems are very different from conventional hot water supply and central heating systems found in domestic properties, for which our products have been tested to, under either BS 7291 Class S or WRAS approval standards, and for this reason Polyplumb, Polyfit or Polysure should not be used on any continuously operated re-circulating systems. Some secondary hot water circulation systems are used intermittently, controlled by time and/ or temperature thermostats. This application is also unsuitable for products manufactured to BS 7291. - See more at: Continuously Operated Re-Circulating Systems | Knowledge Centre | Plumbing & Heating

 

[Dannypipe]

So are you saying if there is a timer on the pump it's ok? Fair enough. Not what I was told by their tech help but I guess it figures.

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's got nowt to do with the suitability of the products for the application. It's all about the approval of the products. Products for use in secondary hot water circulation systems need to be tested and approved separately from products used in a normal hot water system. The cost of testing and approval isn't worth it for the limited market.

 

[Ermintrude]

Slightly different to the advice given by bpec and building control. And I believe wras
[DLMURL]http://www.eurofins.co.uk/news-archive/legionella-expert-calls-for-greater-vigilance.aspx[/DLMURL]

http://www.ukcopperboard.co.uk/literature/pdfs/Installation-Tips/Legionella-and-copper-plumbing.pdf

 

[acecharly]

I was told on a job a long time ago you had to put 18bar of pressure in to speedfit to open the joints up when comissioning it never checked if this was rite just got out the rothenburger and did as i was told. I definately wouldnt do that without inserts. Only time i dont use them is when im putting a speedfit fitting onto copper as its obviously stiff enough.

 

[Ermintrude]

18bar? Speed fit only rated 1 bar at 90c?

5 bar at. 25c

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Christ, I'd hate to be in that house with 18 bar in the speedfit :lol:

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I'd hate to have to pump it up by hand, must have arms like the Incredible Hulk!!

 

[acecharly]

Ah i apologise, 2 bar for 10 minutes and 10 bar for 10 minutes.

http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Technical-Support/Installing-Pipework.aspx

section... system testing

 

[scorps]

Hep2o defiantly told us to pump up to 18 bar, and leave for 20 minutes,they came on site giving us training on how to fit this new fangled stuff.This was about 15 years ago,I know the test procedures have changed since,but it was defiantly 18 bar.And yes it was hard to pump up by hand but it saved on Gym fee's:stooge_moe:

 

[Koogatubac]

18 bar is crazy... Far too much to test.

I have pumped a town house by hand and once i hit 3 bar my shoulders, arms, hands and even everything started turning green! It would send me running around the site shouting 'PLUMBER SMASH!!!' As i grabbed all that plastic!! And then once again, defeated that plastic demon while the priest was beside me reading extracts from the holy bible!

PLUMBER SMASH!!!!!!

 

[stratplus]

Test hep and polyfit every day on sites to 18 bar with a rothenberger pressure tester........pricework........£20!!