Non Gas Safe & Boilers

[jaydebruyne]

I just want to confirm,

As I'm not gas safe as yet, I'm not allowed to even open a boiler am I?

Unsupervised, I'm sure I'm not.

 

[newcastle phill]

No cant open.
Cant hang.
Cant pipe up.

 

[jaydebruyne]

No cant open.
Cant hang.
Cant pipe up.

Thanks for confirming..

 

[diamondgas]

Give this a read it outlines who can legally undertake work on a gas appliance and what you can do
http://www.User PlumbersForums.net ...F/Who can legally work on a gas appliance.pdf

 

[jaydebruyne]

Give this a read it outlines who can legally undertake work on a gas appliance and what you can do
http://www.User PlumbersForums.net ...F/Who can legally work on a gas appliance.pdf

Ah ok, so I can remove the cover to replace say a pump or diverter valve - I just can't work on any part where gas is involved.

Cheers diamondgas

 

[diamondgas]

You have to be competent! AND know that the case is not an integral part of the flue and case seal....! But otherwise yeh! if in doubt contact the manufacturer! Personally I believe only qualified gas safe personnel should be charging customers for this kind of work though!

 

[jaydebruyne]

You have to be competent! But otherwise if in doubt contact the manufacturer! Personally I believe only qualified gas safe personnel should be charging customers for this kind of work though!

I don't plan on working on boilers any time soon - I just wanted clarification

 

[diamondgas]

I don't plan on working on boilers any time soon - I just wanted clarification

Fist time I've actually seen this public bulletin from Gas Safe .. It's a bit scary to be honest.

 

[Aquazone]

You need to be aware of the casing of the boiler. Some are integral to the front cover (like a Worcester Junior) and you wouldn't be able to change anything on these.
Others like an old Worcester CDI the front case is decorative, and the combustion case is behind this.

To be honest, unless your 100% sure of the case, then leave well alone

 

[newcastle phill]

Also being mindful of tb12 and tb14.

Scenario.
What if you pull the decorative cover off and its immediately obvious theres a combustion or poc issue or signs of distress identifiable through appearance.

You would not be competent to take appropriate action and possibly be liable if you left that way.

Its a grey area and best left alone imho

 

[jaydebruyne]

Also being mindful of tb12 and tb14.

Scenario.
What if you pull the decorative cover off and its immediately obvious theres a combustion or poc issue.
Identifiable through appearance.

You would not be competent to take appropriate action and possibly be liable if you left that way.

Its a grey area and best left alone imho

Agreed. Like I said, I'll not be working on them anytime soon. I wouldn't be that stupid to think I'm competent enough to do so. As with anything I do, if I have any doubts, I don't touch it.

 

[kris]

Wee story at my work today,,,,I was fitting a new combi today and the customer had bought the honeywell evo home (700notes he paid , wicked bit of kit ) with stats for every rad, firstly he tried to tell me that id wired the reciever wrong ( which i hadnt ) worked perfectly, then he said to me i was thinking of fitting the boiler myself but decided at last minute to give you a call, he tells me this just 20 mins ago, mental , i felt like throwing my pipeslice at him, lol,,, folks must think that boiler fitting is easy and can be done by anyone,
last week i had to rough in pipes for a kitchen and the customer is a guy i went to school with, hes on the rigs , he saw me cutting a piece of 15mm and he said - is that all you have to do to be a plumber ,
IMHO - really boil your head lol

 

[jaydebruyne]

Wee story at my work today,,,,I was fitting a new combi today and the customer had bought the honeywell evo home (700notes he paid , wicked bit of kit ) with stats for every rad, firstly he tried to tell me that id wired the reciever wrong ( which i hadnt ) worked perfectly, then he said to me i was thinking of fitting the boiler myself but decided at last minute to give you a call, he tells me this just 20 mins ago, mental , i felt like throwing my pipeslice at him, lol,,, folks must think that boiler fitting is easy and can be done by anyone,
last week i had to rough in pipes for a kitchen and the customer is a guy i went to school with, hes on the rigs , he saw me cutting a piece of 15mm and he said - is that all you have to do to be a plumber ,
IMHO - really boil your head lol

Should have stripped it back down and told him to do it himself!

I've not done much in the way of boiler installs - condense pipe runs, flue assembly, flue hole drilling and piping up the PRV discharge pipe - but I know how bloody hard it can be just by looking at the engineer I work with!

 

[kris]

At least your going about it the right way Jay, keep up what your doing and b4 long youl be a boiler man lol

 

[jaydebruyne]

At least your going about it the right way Jay, keep up what your doing and b4 long youl be a boiler man lol

Cheers Kris As frustrating as it is at times I do really enjoy it

 

[mooey]

No cant open.
Cant hang.
Cant pipe up.

Disagree with you on this one a sparks can open the case to wire it.so they don t have to be gas safe.Joe bloggs can buy a boiler from b and q and hang it pipe it and even do the flue in a court of law as long as you don t connect it to the gas thats fine no one could legally do anything to you you could say its art you could run the gas upto the meter you could say water going to go through it long as you don t interfere with the gas you ll have no problems.100 of people do this every day than get a gas safe bod to do the last bits and sign it off 100s of gas safe firms get plumbers to fit boilers I ve done my fair share before I was gas safe and get the registered guys to sign it off

But if in doubt about anything than don t

 

[Dotty]

Disagree with you on this one a sparks can open the case to wire it.so they don t have to be gas safe.Joe bloggs can buy a boiler from b and q and hang it pipe it and even do the flue in a court of law as long as you don t connect it to the gas thats fine no one could legally do anything to you you could say its art you could run the gas upto the meter you could say water going to go through it long as you don t interfere with the gas you ll have no problems.100 of people do this every day than get a gas safe bod to do the last bits and sign it off 100s of gas safe firms get plumbers to fit boilers I ve done my fair share before I was gas safe and get the registered guys to sign it off

But if in doubt about anything than don t

You are perfectly at liberty to disagree. However you are 100% wrong.

TB014 will explain why.

 

[anz]

Disagree with you on this one a sparks can open the case to wire it.so they don t have to be gas safe.Joe bloggs can buy a boiler from b and q and hang it pipe it and even do the flue in a court of law as long as you don t connect it to the gas thats fine no one could legally do anything to you you could say its art you could run the gas upto the meter you could say water going to go through it long as you don t interfere with the gas you ll have no problems.100 of people do this every day than get a gas safe bod to do the last bits and sign it off 100s of gas safe firms get plumbers to fit boilers I ve done my fair share before I was gas safe and get the registered guys to sign it off

But if in doubt about anything than don t

It dosn't mean that because people do it, or turn a blind eye to it that its fine.

 

[Ermintrude]

Fist time I've actually seen this public bulletin from Gas Safe .. It's a bit scary to be honest.

It's a joke. 26(9) any one? Gas appliance = whole appliance. Work = anything other than not walking past it?

 

[jaydebruyne]

Main reason for the question was to safeguard me really (& the custard of course) - just incase my firm sent me to a job which meant opening a boiler (not saying they would do that), I just wanted to know what to say to the custard.. Other than 'yeah I have no idea what the problem is luv' ... And now I know

 

[Dotty]

Fist time I've actually seen this public bulletin from Gas Safe .. It's a bit scary to be honest.

It's a joke. 26(9) any one? Gas appliance = whole appliance. Work = anything other than not walking past it?

So many people throw that document at me.

Don't give a flying fiddlers what it says. GSIUR and 26(9) in particular is what I go by. That's a statutory document, the gas safe pamphlet ain't. Just muddies the water afaic.

 

[AWheating]

Disagree with you on this one a sparks can open the case to wire it.so they don t have to be gas safe.Joe bloggs can buy a boiler from b and q and hang it pipe it and even do the flue in a court of law as long as you don t connect it to the gas thats fine no one could legally do anything to you you could say its art you could run the gas upto the meter you could say water going to go through it long as you don t interfere with the gas you ll have no problems.100 of people do this every day than get a gas safe bod to do the last bits and sign it off 100s of gas safe firms get plumbers to fit boilers I ve done my fair share before I was gas safe and get the registered guys to sign it off

But if in doubt about anything than don t

An electrician can not open a boiler if its case forms part of the combustion seals. Ive lost count the number of cases ive seen not fitted back on correctly by electricians, maybe this needs addressing by the competent persons scheme's for sparkys. extract fans and open flues should be addressed aswell.

No sensible gas safe engineer would knowingly connect the gas and sign off a boiler fitted my a non competent person. Thoses that do are complete idiots and hopefully will get found out and removed from the gas safe register and more.

If your signing to say you have installed said appliance you are responsible for the screws holding the appliance on the wall and all other aspects of the installation. The only safe way to do this would be to uninstall the appliance and visually check the entire gas installation, i would charge more to do this than install the boiler in the first place.

All because you have seen "plumbers" fit boilers and an engineer sign them off does not make it correct, those companies that do this are breaking the law and doing the industry a dis-service.

 

[newcastle phill]

You are perfectly at liberty to disagree. However you are 100% wrong.

TB014 will explain why.

Exactly as per my post 10

 

[stevetheplumber]

all boilers should come with a wiring center that is accessable without opening the boiler i like a multiway plug that clips up underneath can save a lot of time when fault finding as well

 

[tamz]

A good point on a GW :smile:

 

[mooey]

An electrician can not open a boiler if its case forms part of the combustion seals. Ive lost count the number of cases ive seen not fitted back on correctly by electricians, maybe this needs addressing by the competent persons scheme's for sparkys. extract fans and open flues should be addressed aswell.

No sensible gas safe engineer would knowingly connect the gas and sign off a boiler fitted my a non competent person. Thoses that do are complete idiots and hopefully will get found out and removed from the gas safe register and more.

If your signing to say you have installed said appliance you are responsible for the screws holding the appliance on the wall and all other aspects of the installation. The only safe way to do this would be to uninstall the appliance and visually check the entire gas installation, i would charge more to do this than install the boiler in the first place.

All because you have seen "plumbers" fit boilers and an engineer sign them off does not make it correct, those companies that do this are breaking the law and doing the industry a dis-service.

Most of the boilers I ve come across domestic vallient ect there cases don t form part of the seal so in the main most spakys won t have to have a gse holding there hand while they take the case off.As for non gse fitting boilers in an ideal world everyone eould stick to the rules.the companys I know that operate like this have worked for the likes of taylor wimpey bovis and crest homes they are multi million pound firms that have done price work for over 30years for them.do you think they give a toss about the rules we don t live in a ideal world when cash is invovled.i know plenty of gas safe guys that are more than happy to sign off other "plumbers work" I personally see no harm in it at the end of the day who ever signs it off will take the responsibility for any outcome that happens.gas safe don t give dam all thry care about is screwing the people that give them there lively hood over.

 

[solutions]

Most of the boilers I ve come across domestic vallient ect there cases don t form part of the seal so in the main most spakys won t have to have a gse holding there hand while they take the case off.As for non gse fitting boilers in an ideal world everyone eould stick to the rules.the companys I know that operate like this have worked for the likes of taylor wimpey bovis and crest homes they are multi million pound firms that have done price work for over 30years for them.do you think they give a toss about the rules we don t live in a ideal world when cash is invovled.i know plenty of gas safe guys that are more than happy to sign off other "plumbers work" I personally see no harm in it at the end of the day who ever signs it off will take the responsibility for any outcome that happens.gas safe don t give dam all thry care about is screwing the people that give them there lively hood over.

Domestic Vaillant's outer case does form the room seal, it is the seal to the air box that ensures the boiler burns air drawn in through the flue and in the event of a burner door failure (not entirely unheard of) is the only thing holding back products of combustion from entering the home.
Mooey are you gsr?

 

[EPH]

Is mooey saying Vaillant boiler cases dont form part of the room seal? Pretty sure most of them and Worcesters up to 10 years old do. Frightening post.

 

[solutions]

Is mooey saying Vaillant boiler cases dont form part of the room seal? Pretty sure most of them and Worcesters up to 10 years old do. Frightening post.

Scary..... my thoughts exactly. No one competent to take a case off a boiler would say that about the case doors on those boilers.

 

[Dotty]

all boilers should come with a wiring center that is accessable without opening the boiler i like a multiway plug that clips up underneath can save a lot of time when fault finding as well

With you 100% there brother.

 

[EPH]

Scary..... my thoughts exactly. No one competent to take a case off a boiler would say that about the case doors on those boilers.

You can only assume that if people can't physically see the burner and flames then it's ok to take the case off.

 

[PlumbersMate]

Is there a list anywhere or such like where I can find the boilers that have cases forming part of the seal? Or is it just refer to MI's each time?

 

[Dotty]

You can only assume that if people can't physically see the burner and flames then it's ok to take the case off.

Not the case at all, take WB as an example.....

 

[EPH]

Not the case at all, take WB as an example.....

I take it you mean pre Greenstar?

 

[mooey]

Domestic Vaillant's outer case does form the room seal, it is the seal to the air box that ensures the boiler burns air drawn in through the flue and in the event of a burner door failure (not entirely unheard of) is the only thing holding back products of combustion from entering the home.
Mooey are you gsr?

Nope not at the moment.but have been in the past corgi