Toilet pan doesn't clear....

[Hughieboy]

I have a problem with a downstairs toilet not clearing solid waste. It's an old type Royal Doulton low level type with a bottom exit into the drain. It has a full flushing syphon type cistern.

Suspecting a blockage it has been removed and pressure washed through and is clear. The underfloor drain pipe it connects to is plastic 5" (?) which goes off under the garage door and out towards the road, obviously at a pretty shallow angle.

The flush operates properly and it doesn't back up but it mostly won't clear solid waste of any quantity, nearly always needing a bucket of water thrown down it to shift the offending article! The only thing that has changed in the last 5 years or so is that the neighbours had an ensuite bathroom fitted and the waste pipe from it was brought across in front of the house on our shared drive and joined to the main shared waste pipe by where the manhole/junction is, not sure if it's relevant.

can anyone suggest what the problem may be?

Many Thanks.

 

[Best]

When you say " low type" do you mean a low level cistern or a close coupled?
Just wondering is it a syphonic type with an Airex

 

[Hughieboy]

It's low level, ie cistern on the wall and connecting pipe to the pan. Proper 'old school' toilet...

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Does the bowl fill when flushed?

 

[Hughieboy]

No, it behaves perfectly normally.... Just doesn't shift the logs!

 

[turnpin]

Is the cistern emptying fully when flushed?....regards Turnpin:smile5:

 

[Best]

And is there enough water in the cistern?
Also got to consider if anything could be lodged in the flush pipe to pan area.

 

[Hughieboy]

Cistern doing what it should, plenty of flush, brand new syphon. Really strange. The u bend does look fairly tight but that's the way it's made so I guess it ought to work! Is it just about force of flush or is there something else it might be?

 

[Pcplumb]

Is there any freshener type things on or around the pan?

 

[Best]

When was the new syphon fitted to the cistern? The syphon would need to allow the amount of water through it that the old pan is designed to need to flush.
Got to be sure the flush pipe to pan isn't blocked partially as I earlier said

 

[turnpin]

As Best suggested old pan's were designed to need 9 ltr's of water to clear pan most new syphons designed with water saving in mind ..OK if combined with modern pan....if you can clear the pan with a bucket of water I don't think you have enough water in the cistern what make is the replacement syphon....regards Turnpin:smile5:

 

[stani]

Has the flush pipe to pan connection been pushed too far into the pan partially blocking the full flush

 

[Hughieboy]

Ah, didn't know about the siphon thing. It is one I bought from my merchant, standar traditional looking siphon in the original cistern flushing a full 9 litres. I t all appears to be working as you'd expect however I can't vouch for how much power it produces. Like I said, it's a (probably) 1970's low level Royal Doulton pan and cistern set up that I removed, cleaned up and then fitted with a new flush pipe and siphon. I didn't realise you could push the pipe too far in so I could remove it and cut a bit off the end (don't want to move the pan really, new bathroom/tiles etc). I could also change the siphon if there is a recommendation for some having more oomph than others? The one I took out was a big old red thing with a knackered diaphragm!

 

[REDSAW]

syphonic!!!!?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

you could have just changed the diaphragm

 

[Hughieboy]

With my limited knowledge of bogs I thought I was doing the right thing putting a whole new unit in..... Just found a site selling new ones, £45! Not sure what the difference is apart from the colour... Is there a 'best' and 'worst' brand wise for siphons?

 

[Best]

I would also have said just change the syphon washer. Those old round syphons were the best and the fact that they are round means they kept their shape.

 

[REDSAW]

I would also have said just change the syphon washer. Those old round syphons were the best and the fact that they are round means they kept their shape.

where u get that info from?

 

[Best]

where u get that info from?

I didn't get that info directly from the OP, but I thought it almost certain the original would be the round syphon. They nearly all were on old cisterns. Then he later said it had been a big old red syphon, which a lot of round type were.
Am I spelling syphon wrong? I think it can be spelt in two ways.

Edit, - just checked and seems I am correct. Syphon is a variant of the word Siphon. Both spellings are right. Syphon is also a noun and therefore a correct spelling for a cistern Syphon.
I thought maybe I had been spelling it wrong. :smile:

 

[Radioman]

If you can clear the pan with a bucket of water, eg 10 litres, then you have either a flow issue from the siphon or you may need to check the air admittance to the soil stack is not blocked. To allow the toilet to flush air has to get into the waste pipe else a vacuum is created. Was your neighbours new connection to the sewer signed off by building controls? It's a notifiable job when you make new connections to the sewage system.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Have you fitted the cistern high enough to get a good flow , older style cisterns needed to be a certain height from floor

 

[WaterTight]

You didn't say it flushed properly with a bucket, just that a bucket was needed to finish the job. What happens if you pour a bucket down it wthout cistern flushing first and do so at roughly the same rate as normal flushing rather than slinging it down there?

If it clears then it sounds like the problem is prior to the pan, if not then it could be the pan and/or after the pan

 

[Hughieboy]

Ok, thanks for all the replies.... To clarify...

1. You do need to sling the water down, normal pouring rate is not that successful.
2. The pan is clear and so was the pipe in the floor as far as I could tell.
3. The actual vent pipe which serves the main drainage, ie the kitchen and upstairs bathroom is further along the house. There is a manhole in between which is cemented over with a patio slab, however this was also clear a couple of years ago. There is also a manhole in the garage floor which is on the main run out and we used to have problems with it stinking. It has a carpet over it now so I have no idea if it still stinks!

From what you are all saying, should I be thinking that maybe it's more of a flow problem than a flush problem, ie the waste isn't able to draw away effectively? How can I check if the vent stack is doing its job?

 

[stevetheplumber]

my advice would be retrieve the old syphon and get a washer for it or make one from a suitable thickness of rubish sack

 

[Hughieboy]

my advice would be retrieve the old syphon and get a washer for it or make one from a suitable thickness of rubish sack

That's long gone unfortunately..... as the problem was pre existing I slung it out...

 

[WaterTight]

Or wouldn't a drop valve be worth a go? Surely a Fluidmaster has to be able to empty a cistern with as much oomph?

 

[Hughieboy]

Or wouldn't a drop valve be worth a go? Surely a Fluidmaster has to be able to empty a cistern with as much oomph?

I think I'll try that idea... Got to be the simplest thing to try first, thanks!

 

[stevetheplumber]

good call watertight