Woolwich killing

[R1CKY]

The fact that this human in question took someone else's life, in this case undeniably. He now has no rights, under the same principle as locking him up and throwing away the key. Unfortunately the police didn't do a goo job at shooting him (they always intend to shoot to kill according to the chap on the radio this afternoon)

I'm not saying kill every criminal that goes through our courts, but there are exceptional cases like this where the evidence cannot be argued. Sorry but you sound like one of all to many do gooders who are putting this country to shame with fictional equality. If only everyone played by the same rules it might work, but whilst there re nut jobs like this walking the streets, human rights go out the window.

I'm by no means "one of all too many do-gooders". Murder is murder, whether carried out by a criminal or by the government. I can understand why people would like the death sentence, but IMO it is too good for the criminals. Most extremists are willing to die for their beliefs anyway. The thought of a human being, like you and I, having the right to kill another human (even though those that performed this horrific murder don't deserve that title) is quite a horrid thought in my mind.

As Ray said, I'd have had no issue with the Police shooting them dead to protect themselves and public. The same way as I'd use any force possible to protect myself and my family from an attacker.

 

[tamz]

Prison for them should be something like solitary confinement in a stinking darkened hole. Eat shyt and sleep until they are carried out in a box.
Something like the solitary in the film Papillon and that would still be too good for them but unfortunately even murdering *******s still have "human rights" no matter how much they don't deserve any.

 

[Ray Stafford]

All well and good liberal speil,could you front the young lads family and tell them that.

Right now, no I wouldn't, because it would be insensitive to a grieving family. In a couple of years time, when the pain has dulled a bit, yes I would be prepared to.

But we shouldn't have laws that are framed entirely to assuage the grief of those affected by a hideous crime, however much we may feel for them.

And I wouldn't consider myself a liberal either - most of my political views would put me very much on the "right" of the political spectrum. I just don't happen to agree with the death penalty.

 

[michael c]

australian gov't have my admiration..

the bnp party have now gained 1%

dont be too quick to vote bnp either Redsaw as many of their members believe those with disabilities should be put down at birth so as not to be a drain on the economy.

 

[R1CKY]

Well said Ray.

I'm going to leave my views on this subject here, there is rarely a good outcome to these discussions. I have respect for everyone's views and opinions and I don't wish to fall out with people because of our differing views.

 

[cr0ft]

My argument is purely financial to be honest. I think that even if the official figure of £40k ish a year to keep someone in prison is to be believed, our most dangerous murderers may spend 40 years in prison. That's £1.6m plus the trial costs they cost the state!

 

[michael c]

the problem with the death penalty is it introduces the prospect of well im going to die anyway so why not take a few people out with me. It gives way to produce alot more Raul Moats. By the way I do believe in the principal of the death penalty for people like these but the reality of it isn't simply black and white.

 

[Dotty]

I'm with you on this one Ricky.

I'm not squeamish, and if the armed police had shot these people dead, I wouldn't have turned a hair, and I don't give a monkeys if a householder kills a burglar they discover in their house.

But there is a difference between police (or an armed householder) killing in self defence or defence of others, and the state coldly and calculatingly killing someone, even lowlife scum like this.

I like to think that I am better than these people, my friends and neighbours are better than them, and the society I live in is better than them. If the price of proving that is that we spend money keeping them alive in jail, then thats a price I am prepared to pay.

I also remember several cases where supposed criminals were found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" of what would be capital crimes, and subsequently turned out to be innocent. As you correctly point out, you can release someone from prison, but you can't un-execute them.

This is the same as my thoughts. I want to be able to agree to the death penalty but I can't. The judicial process is fallible. There is always that tiny percentage that are imprisoned because the case was flawed or a witness lied.

I'll always remember the case of Derek Bentley.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Even ignoring the moral and logical question of killing people for killing people, where one killing is more righteous than the other even though both killings are justified with exactly the same argument, DNA evidence is anything but 100% reliable or 'indisputable'.

How DNA evidence creates victims of chance - science-in-society - 18 August 2010 - New Scientist

And this is before you get into the realm of the possibility of dishonest law enforcement. Two cases instantly spring to mind: Birmingham Six and Hillsborough.

 

[cr0ft]

But trials in this country are still decided by juries for 1. Whilst you've pointed to one website online that claims DNA evidence is less than adequate it is undoubtedly nearly 100% reliable. That said, the CPS doesn't bring trials on the basis of DNA evidence alone, so there would be multiple evidence chains in order to convict someone of murder.

To my mind when someone takes a life, they give up all of their human rights at the point they kill someone, so to me it's perfectly moral to kill them as punishment.

You are talking about a few cases in the millions of cases that are heard around the world. I don't understand why a tiny minority of cases should be used as an argument to determine how the vast majority of cases are treated.

I think we are going to have to agree that we have radicaly different opinions on the subject

 

[Ray Stafford]

I think we are going to have to agree that we have radicaly different opinions on the subject

I can agree with that!

 

[Nostrum]

I see your points and understand where your coming from. I find it quite interesting that a key factor in the discussion seems to come down to the difference between calculated murder and impulse killing. I don't agree myself, but as already said the conversation could go on for days.

Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye lid seeing this guy hanging from a tree with a noose around his neck, and i'm not one for fighting and violence. I get angry at the fact someone is selfish enough to take another's life without a thought for them or the family and friends they leave behind, and don't even get me started on rape and child abuse.

As said, the majority of cases aren't clear cut, so it would only be on very rare occasions like this where i would agree with the death sentence on overwhelming evidence.

 

[Nostrum]

Yeah, lets change the subject. I vote for boobs and chuff.

 

[AWheating]

tbh id rather they spend the 40k a year helping the homeless or researching cancer or paying for an extra social worker for the protection of kids.

the police marksmen should have put a bullet in there skulls and be done with it and they should have been give a medal for it too.

 

[on31ll]

Im for death penelty in certain circumstances ! These men did it ! They said they did it and they where caught red handed i wouldnt want to unkill them ! Id want them dead wouldnt even want to bury/cremate them in a coffin! They dont deserve it !

Its time to get radical terrorists out ! Burning poppys is a no ko i think you should be arrested for that ! Spitting at soldiers or police i think you should be areested for that to ! Weather your english or not ! But slaughtering a young soldier as hes walking the street ? You should have your life taken from them !

Apart from all the racial hatred and all the other racism i think its time for the noce muslims, the nice jews, the nice catholics to take control and stop the radicals from being in there church or mosque etc ! But no it will never happen !

 

[on31ll]

tbh id rather they spend the 40k a year helping the homeless or researching cancer or paying for an extra social worker for the protection of kids.

I agree totally ! Id rather pay that 40k to that soldiers two kids ! All prisoners should be treated like they are treated in tent coty in america ! The dont reoffend there !

 

[on31ll]

About Tent City Jail in Arizona | About Tent City

 

[Rickster123]

I'd hang them. Hang them all. Killed someone? Hang 'em! Robbed someone? Hang 'em! Cheated the tax man? Hang 'em! I'd use the now empty prisons for hospitals and schools. Over crowding would be a thing of the past and I gaurentee a drop in crime rates. Job done.

 

[on31ll]

I'd hang them. Hang them all. Killed someone? Hang 'em! Robbed someone? Hang 'em! Cheated the tax man? Hang 'em! I'd use the now empty prisons for hospitals and schools. Over crowding would be a thing of the past and I gaurentee a drop in crime rates. Job done.

Use some prisons for the homeless !

 

[Nostrum]

You have to make sure the bodies didn't end up in you lasagne though

 

[kay-jay]

I'd hang them. Hang them all. Killed someone? Hang 'em! Robbed someone? Hang 'em! Cheated the tax man? Hang 'em! I'd use the now empty prisons for hospitals and schools. Over crowding would be a thing of the past and I gaurentee a drop in crime rates. Job done.

I like this.....apart from the taxman bit

I think you meant to say 'hang the taxman'

 

[AWheating]

the tesco terrorist burger!

 

[AWheating]

i wonder what the rest of the world thinks when they see that we cant even remove that hook handed mother funkster from our shores. We must look like complete idiots putting it mildly.

 

[Masood]

I'd hang them. Hang them all. Killed someone? Hang 'em! Robbed someone? Hang 'em! Cheated the tax man? Hang 'em! I'd use the now empty prisons for hospitals and schools. Over crowding would be a thing of the past and I gaurentee a drop in crime rates. Job done.

Yeah but then the population would fall, and there'd be skills shortage and fast-trackers would be chasing you down the street shouting "Gizza job mate?!"

 

[Rickster123]

I like this.....apart from the taxman bit

I think you meant to say 'hang the taxman'

the only people I hate more than the tax man are the people who cheat tax. And people who don't pay tax. These are normally the people who moan about the emergency services and the nhs. We all have to pay our way that's just how it is.

 

[Nostrum]

the only people I hate more than the tax man are the people who cheat tax. And people who don't pay tax. These are normally the people who moan about the emergency services and the nhs. We all have to pay our way that's just how it is.

Or getting paid cash for copper and not declaring it.. Sorry, you'll have to hang me. I got given a 5
fiver tip of a lovely little old lady and didn't let the tax man take his quid.

 

[Nostrum]

Damn keyboards got to many crumbs in it, can't even edit my mistakes in 'ere

 

[AWheating]

the only people I hate more than the tax man are the people who cheat tax. And people who don't pay tax. These are normally the people who moan about the emergency services and the nhs. We all have to pay our way that's just how it is.

the most common tax dodgers are large corps/ companies. The govenrment will spend more money chasing a plumber for that 20% of that 20 quid you charged that oap down the road for a new outside tap than the millions these large companies should have coughed up. easier to squash the little guy im affraid.

 

[Leo21]

the only people I hate more than the tax man are the people who cheat tax. And people who don't pay tax. These are normally the people who moan about the emergency services and the nhs. We all have to pay our way that's just how it is.

Yes but not all of us don't pay in!
Did you see skint? That girl with five kids £400 a week, rent paid for. Never worked a day in her life. If I get I'll or run out if work I wouldn't get any where near that, and ive paid loads of tax.

 

[dancinplumba]

You know cannot kill them they will be martyrs to the cause, infact they are now because of the publicity and mobile media

 

[on31ll]

Skills shortage ? Every job in this country i think cpuld be done by an english person ! In aus they only take skilled people and skills they need !

Say alot of doctors are indian etc why cant they go back to india and be adoctor there ? If everyone did it would it not help to boost india ? Ok theyll take a pay cut but the price of living there is nothing !

 

[Rickster123]

the most common tax dodgers are large corps/ companies. The govenrment will spend more money chasing a plumber for that 20% of that 20 quid you charged that oap down the road for a new outside tap than the millions these large companies should have coughed up. easier to squash the little guy im affraid.

im talking about the guys who pay no tax. The people who claim the benefits and do the work to. It's not just the big firms. Is too easy to point the finger at them and them alone. But yes, I'd hang them too!

 

[hammers4spanner]

Reading these comments I realise just how liberal I am. Theses events where shocking but let's not confuse 2 nut jobs with 60 million odd Muslims. I like to think we live in a free(ish) country where anybody can air there views regardless of who it offends! Imagine loving in North Korea for example!

I have a wide range of friends Muslim black chinesse gay I'd hate it if they had to suffer for prejudice brought on by two people terrible actions.

Hitler lost the war the facists where defeated lads lets keep it that way.

This is not two nut jobs tho is it !!!

All over africa ,asia and south america beheadings ,drive buy shootings,kidnappings and car bombs are a very regular occurance .What happened in woolwich is happening on mass everyday in these countries now its on our own doorstep everyone is in shock horror. We get sheltered from what really happens outside of our little bubble so as horrific as it is its nothing new .
Having met many muslims most are normall people going about everyday lives but to say its to nut jobs couldn't be further from the truth . Their is a river of evil in this religion and imho muslims themselves dont do enough to eradicate this .

 

[kay-jay]

Skills shortage ? Every job in this country i think cpuld be done by an english person ! In aus they only take skilled people and skills they need !

Say alot of doctors are indian etc why cant they go back to india and be adoctor there ? If everyone did it would it not help to boost india ? Ok theyll take a pay cut but the price of living there is nothing !

Bull.

The amount of doctors required in this country both public and private could not be filled by British people alone.

Its not just about aptitude, intelligence and education either although these factors do play a part.
Being a doctor is a vocation, a calling it requires a person with a will to want to want to help others. Its not all about driving to work in a beemer its about cleaning puss and puke. Fingers up arses. Venereal diseases and dealing everyday for long hours with the great unwashed.

I certainly couldn't do it and im very greatful for those that can irrespective of where they were born.

Now that is just one profession but surely now it is apparent that migrant workers are not all'coming over here stealing our jobs' but taking up positions to take up the shortfall that our own nationals can't fill.

 

[Leo21]

I agree with most of that. But a lot of immigrants are doing the low paid jobs at a million miles an hour. A lot live in run down rentals with eight or more sharing. We should have left working conditions like that years ago.
The big boys use labour like this to keep the rates down and they know we won't do it, and why should we? We're going backwards not forwards, the rich get richer. And all those years of fighting for our working rights have been for nowt.