if you use that philosophy then what gives one human the right to imprison another for their entire life? The decision is made by the culprit as soon as they decide to carry out an act such as this, theyve only got themselves to blame. Your only entitled the same rights of the victim, an eye for an eye and all that.
Discuss Woolwich killing in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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if you use that philosophy then what gives one human the right to imprison another for their entire life? The decision is made by the culprit as soon as they decide to carry out an act such as this, theyve only got themselves to blame. Your only entitled the same rights of the victim, an eye for an eye and all that.
I agree masood , but bar a few uneducated or racist extremists ( as said before on both sides of the fence) most people will too.
I'd feel the same if it were a Brit murdering another human from different ethnic origin. In fact in this instance it would seem like the perpertrator had lived in the uk for some time (long enough to pick up the local accent) so I'm not assuming this man has come into the uk to practice this crime.
The point I was making above was that we are openly letting criminals through the borders with little power to stop them.
Youve got to want to kill first, then use a religious belief to excuse from the act.
I'd feel the same if it were a Brit murdering another human from different ethnic origin. In fact in this instance it would seem like the perpertrator had lived in the uk for some time (long enough to pick up the local accent) so I'm not assuming this man has come into the uk to practice this crime.
The point I was making above was that we are openly letting criminals through the borders with little power to stop them.
Youve got to want to kill first, then use a religious belief to excuse from the act.
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I'm disgusted with what my friends are posting to facebook, the photos and banners they are sharing.
I feel ashamed of my age group looking at it.
I feel ashamed of my age group looking at it.
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The animals responsible for this will end up in prison for many years, each costing the tax-payer around £40k per year. To me, with DNA forensics being able to 100% accurately prove someone was at the scene of a crime and/or holding the murder weapon etc there's no realistic argument against the death penalty imo.
This country is far far too soft.
This country is far far too soft.
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on31ll
Croft for prime minister ?
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Just set up a Facebook page to see how far my idea goes. https://www.************/pages/Bring-Back-The-Death-Penalty/196062600543264?ref=ts&fref=ts . If, like me, you believe the UK should bring back the death penalty for murder then please like the page and mention it to friends and family. If it does go viral then maybe we can petition government to bring it back 
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Veggie Dave
I'm just so glad there aren't any white christians going around killing people for religious reasons, political reasons or just for fun...
I believe those are the exact words one of the two nutjobs in Woolwich used, too.
I believe those are the exact words one of the two nutjobs in Woolwich used, too.
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Veggie Dave
[h=2]hy·poc·ri·sy[/h] [hi-pok-ruh-see] Show IPA
noun, plural hy·poc·ri·sies. 1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.
Origin:
1175–1225; Middle English ipocrisie < Old French < Late Latin hypocrisis < Greek hypókrisis play acting, equivalent to hypokrī́ ( nesthai ) to play a part, explain ( hypo- hypo- + krī́nein to distinguish, separate) + -sis -sis; h- (reintroduced in 16th century)
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Veggie Dave
Ah, I was right:
Woolwich attack: terrorist proclaimed 'an eye for an eye' after attack - Telegraph
Which brings us back to hypocrisy...
Woolwich attack: terrorist proclaimed 'an eye for an eye' after attack - Telegraph
Which brings us back to hypocrisy...
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R1CKY
Because imprisoning someone as a punishment and to protect innocent people from a dangerous person is on a whole different scale to killing someone. What gives one human being the right to kill another? Not to mention people being falsely accused of crimes, you can release someone from prison, but you can't un-kill someone. You do know the end of that saying? An eye for an eye and soon the world will be blind.
I'm quite happy for my tax to be spent keeping dangerous criminal behind bars.
You may want to have a read of this, seems it costs a considerable amount of money to kill someone too.
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R1CKY
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Ray Stafford
I'm with you on this one Ricky.
I'm not squeamish, and if the armed police had shot these people dead, I wouldn't have turned a hair, and I don't give a monkeys if a householder kills a burglar they discover in their house.
But there is a difference between police (or an armed householder) killing in self defence or defence of others, and the state coldly and calculatingly killing someone, even lowlife scum like this.
I like to think that I am better than these people, my friends and neighbours are better than them, and the society I live in is better than them. If the price of proving that is that we spend money keeping them alive in jail, then thats a price I am prepared to pay.
I also remember several cases where supposed criminals were found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" of what would be capital crimes, and subsequently turned out to be innocent. As you correctly point out, you can release someone from prison, but you can't un-execute them.
The fact that this human in question took someone else's life, in this case undeniably. He now has no rights, under the same principle as locking him up and throwing away the key. Unfortunately the police didn't do a goo job at shooting him (they always intend to shoot to kill according to the chap on the radio this afternoon)
I'm not saying kill every criminal that goes through our courts, but there are exceptional cases like this where the evidence cannot be argued. Sorry but you sound like one of all to many do gooders who are putting this country to shame with fictional equality. If only everyone played by the same rules it might work, but whilst there re nut jobs like this walking the streets, human rights go out the window.
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DNA evidence is undisputable, sorry. There would need to be the same trial to put someone in prison for murder as there would to hang them or whatever for murder. I don't quite understand the logic where someone who has no job and prospects can kill someone and end up in prison with a better life (in many cases) than the soldier that was killed will have.
When DNA evidence is 100% accurate why would you want to un-kill a murderer, am I missing the point?
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Hey Ray. Whilst I agree with you that there were people wrongly convincted prior to DNA forensic science being used in criminal cases, has there been a wrong conviction since that? I genuinly don't know so it's more of an ask than an argument!
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Ray Stafford
Hi Kieran
A quick google search of "is DNA evidence reliable" gives a lot of hits with various responses. Unfortunately, its hard to tell who has an axe to grind, and who doesn't. And even if is 100% (doubtful) then in most cases what the DNA evidence is proving is that an individual came into contact with the victim, or was present at the scene of the crime. Thats pretty strong evidence, but not the same as proving exactly what happened.
My objection to the death penalty is not solely about the possibility of miscarriages of justice, important though that is.
Its a moral point. Whilst I absolutely understand the desire for retribution, and if the victim was a friend or family member I am sure that I would feel it very strongly, I genuinely believe that we have to PROVE that our society is better than some of the scum that exist in it.
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sheff paul
All well and good liberal speil,could you front the young lads family and tell them that.
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R1CKY
I'm by no means "one of all too many do-gooders". Murder is murder, whether carried out by a criminal or by the government. I can understand why people would like the death sentence, but IMO it is too good for the criminals. Most extremists are willing to die for their beliefs anyway. The thought of a human being, like you and I, having the right to kill another human (even though those that performed this horrific murder don't deserve that title) is quite a horrid thought in my mind.
As Ray said, I'd have had no issue with the Police shooting them dead to protect themselves and public. The same way as I'd use any force possible to protect myself and my family from an attacker.
T
tamz
Prison for them should be something like solitary confinement in a stinking darkened hole. Eat shyt and sleep until they are carried out in a box.
Something like the solitary in the film Papillon and that would still be too good for them but unfortunately even murdering *******s still have "human rights" no matter how much they don't deserve any.
Something like the solitary in the film Papillon and that would still be too good for them but unfortunately even murdering *******s still have "human rights" no matter how much they don't deserve any.
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Ray Stafford
Right now, no I wouldn't, because it would be insensitive to a grieving family. In a couple of years time, when the pain has dulled a bit, yes I would be prepared to.
But we shouldn't have laws that are framed entirely to assuage the grief of those affected by a hideous crime, however much we may feel for them.
And I wouldn't consider myself a liberal either - most of my political views would put me very much on the "right" of the political spectrum. I just don't happen to agree with the death penalty.
dont be too quick to vote bnp either Redsaw as many of their members believe those with disabilities should be put down at birth so as not to be a drain on the economy.
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R1CKY
Well said Ray.
I'm going to leave my views on this subject here, there is rarely a good outcome to these discussions. I have respect for everyone's views and opinions and I don't wish to fall out with people because of our differing views.
I'm going to leave my views on this subject here, there is rarely a good outcome to these discussions. I have respect for everyone's views and opinions and I don't wish to fall out with people because of our differing views.
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My argument is purely financial to be honest. I think that even if the official figure of £40k ish a year to keep someone in prison is to be believed, our most dangerous murderers may spend 40 years in prison. That's £1.6m plus the trial costs they cost the state!
the problem with the death penalty is it introduces the prospect of well im going to die anyway so why not take a few people out with me. It gives way to produce alot more Raul Moats. By the way I do believe in the principal of the death penalty for people like these but the reality of it isn't simply black and white.
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Dotty
This is the same as my thoughts. I want to be able to agree to the death penalty but I can't. The judicial process is fallible. There is always that tiny percentage that are imprisoned because the case was flawed or a witness lied.
I'll always remember the case of Derek Bentley.
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Veggie Dave
Even ignoring the moral and logical question of killing people for killing people, where one killing is more righteous than the other even though both killings are justified with exactly the same argument, DNA evidence is anything but 100% reliable or 'indisputable'.
How DNA evidence creates victims of chance - science-in-society - 18 August 2010 - New Scientist
And this is before you get into the realm of the possibility of dishonest law enforcement. Two cases instantly spring to mind: Birmingham Six and Hillsborough.
How DNA evidence creates victims of chance - science-in-society - 18 August 2010 - New Scientist
And this is before you get into the realm of the possibility of dishonest law enforcement. Two cases instantly spring to mind: Birmingham Six and Hillsborough.
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But trials in this country are still decided by juries for 1. Whilst you've pointed to one website online that claims DNA evidence is less than adequate it is undoubtedly nearly 100% reliable. That said, the CPS doesn't bring trials on the basis of DNA evidence alone, so there would be multiple evidence chains in order to convict someone of murder.
To my mind when someone takes a life, they give up all of their human rights at the point they kill someone, so to me it's perfectly moral to kill them as punishment.
You are talking about a few cases in the millions of cases that are heard around the world. I don't understand why a tiny minority of cases should be used as an argument to determine how the vast majority of cases are treated.
I think we are going to have to agree that we have radicaly different opinions on the subject
To my mind when someone takes a life, they give up all of their human rights at the point they kill someone, so to me it's perfectly moral to kill them as punishment.
You are talking about a few cases in the millions of cases that are heard around the world. I don't understand why a tiny minority of cases should be used as an argument to determine how the vast majority of cases are treated.
I think we are going to have to agree that we have radicaly different opinions on the subject
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Ray Stafford
I think we are going to have to agree that we have radicaly different opinions on the subject
I can agree with that!
I see your points and understand where your coming from. I find it quite interesting that a key factor in the discussion seems to come down to the difference between calculated murder and impulse killing. I don't agree myself, but as already said the conversation could go on for days.
Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye lid seeing this guy hanging from a tree with a noose around his neck, and i'm not one for fighting and violence. I get angry at the fact someone is selfish enough to take another's life without a thought for them or the family and friends they leave behind, and don't even get me started on rape and child abuse.
As said, the majority of cases aren't clear cut, so it would only be on very rare occasions like this where i would agree with the death sentence on overwhelming evidence.
Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye lid seeing this guy hanging from a tree with a noose around his neck, and i'm not one for fighting and violence. I get angry at the fact someone is selfish enough to take another's life without a thought for them or the family and friends they leave behind, and don't even get me started on rape and child abuse.
As said, the majority of cases aren't clear cut, so it would only be on very rare occasions like this where i would agree with the death sentence on overwhelming evidence.
tbh id rather they spend the 40k a year helping the homeless or researching cancer or paying for an extra social worker for the protection of kids.
the police marksmen should have put a bullet in there skulls and be done with it and they should have been give a medal for it too.
the police marksmen should have put a bullet in there skulls and be done with it and they should have been give a medal for it too.
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on31ll
Im for death penelty in certain circumstances ! These men did it ! They said they did it and they where caught red handed i wouldnt want to unkill them ! Id want them dead wouldnt even want to bury/cremate them in a coffin! They dont deserve it !
Its time to get radical terrorists out ! Burning poppys is a no ko i think you should be arrested for that ! Spitting at soldiers or police i think you should be areested for that to ! Weather your english or not ! But slaughtering a young soldier as hes walking the street ? You should have your life taken from them !
Apart from all the racial hatred and all the other racism i think its time for the noce muslims, the nice jews, the nice catholics to take control and stop the radicals from being in there church or mosque etc ! But no it will never happen !
Its time to get radical terrorists out ! Burning poppys is a no ko i think you should be arrested for that ! Spitting at soldiers or police i think you should be areested for that to ! Weather your english or not ! But slaughtering a young soldier as hes walking the street ? You should have your life taken from them !
Apart from all the racial hatred and all the other racism i think its time for the noce muslims, the nice jews, the nice catholics to take control and stop the radicals from being in there church or mosque etc ! But no it will never happen !
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on31ll
I agree totally ! Id rather pay that 40k to that soldiers two kids ! All prisoners should be treated like they are treated in tent coty in america ! The dont reoffend there !
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Rickster123
I'd hang them. Hang them all. Killed someone? Hang 'em! Robbed someone? Hang 'em! Cheated the tax man? Hang 'em! I'd use the now empty prisons for hospitals and schools. Over crowding would be a thing of the past and I gaurentee a drop in crime rates. Job done.
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on31ll
Use some prisons for the homeless !
K
kay-jay
I like this.....apart from the taxman bit
I think you meant to say 'hang the taxman'
M
Masood
Yeah but then the population would fall, and there'd be skills shortage and fast-trackers would be chasing you down the street shouting "Gizza job mate?!"
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Rickster123
I like this.....apart from the taxman bit
I think you meant to say 'hang the taxman'
the only people I hate more than the tax man are the people who cheat tax. And people who don't pay tax. These are normally the people who moan about the emergency services and the nhs. We all have to pay our way that's just how it is.
Or getting paid cash for copper and not declaring it.. Sorry, you'll have to hang me. I got given a 5
fiver tip of a lovely little old lady and didn't let the tax man take his quid.
the most common tax dodgers are large corps/ companies. The govenrment will spend more money chasing a plumber for that 20% of that 20 quid you charged that oap down the road for a new outside tap than the millions these large companies should have coughed up. easier to squash the little guy im affraid.
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Yes but not all of us don't pay in!
Did you see skint? That girl with five kids £400 a week, rent paid for. Never worked a day in her life. If I get I'll or run out if work I wouldn't get any where near that, and ive paid loads of tax.
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You know cannot kill them they will be martyrs to the cause, infact they are now because of the publicity and mobile media
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