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Bull.

The amount of doctors required in this country both public and private could not be filled by British people alone.

Its not just about aptitude, intelligence and education either although these factors do play a part.
Being a doctor is a vocation, a calling it requires a person with a will to want to want to help others. Its not all about driving to work in a beemer its about cleaning puss and puke. Fingers up arses. Venereal diseases and dealing everyday for long hours with the great unwashed.

I certainly couldn't do it and im very greatful for those that can irrespective of where they were born.

Now that is just one profession but surely now it is apparent that migrant workers are not all'coming over here stealing our jobs' but taking up positions to take up the shortfall that our own nationals can't fill.


My mum works in A&E so does my aunty and my cousin they work hard actually they work very hard but even i know that no doctor will ever clean up sick ! They walk away from that ! And i dont think the doctors an nurses cpuldnt be filled by english people ! It could ! Why couldnt they do it ? Numbers ? Theres enough people in the uk !

If it was english people for english jobs then yes training would get restructered etc but i think its stupid to say no the english people cpuldnt do that job ! What jobs couldnt english people do ? And why ?
 
You seem to forget that 90% of the British unemployed form the feckless underclass and wouldn't work if you doubled wages.

Of course we have the numbers to fill positions but people don't have the aptitude, intelligence, education or the calling to fill many positions.

What do you think would happen to the quality of works in a specialist field such as medicine if training and employment were foisted upon individuals who didn't want to do it, didn't feel the calling and didn't have the passion.?

If we needed 100,000 doctors in the UK and we had 100,000 British candidates for those positions you seem to be advocating that those brits should get the job because they are British?

Why do you feel they would be the best candidates for the job??

Surely competition drives standards up while the 'bums on seats' policy is unregulated. Who do you think suffers as a result?
Everyone does as standards drop
 
No i see your point and i understand it ! But there are english people that are willing to work but there is no work ! The training and schools would change if they went to using english people it would have to !

I understand it will never happen but i think if we put some of the people that want to work thats another person paying tax not taking dole ! In america they will take an american before anybody else ! Same in aus !

I think your point about people being in the job that dont want the job is important ! But i believe thats happening alot ! And look at people in the army ! It used to be a respected job etc now its just full of people that dont wanna be there ! They do it because its all they can do
 
The aim of the scum that carried out this attack was to stir up racial hatred and judging by some of the posts on here and stuff I'm seeing on FB they've achieved their goal.

The way to beat these people is not to ban people of a certain religion/skin colour etc. from entering the country it is to try to live together without conflict and accept people for what they are.
 
Since this happend seen a few things on twitter about EDL i thought they where racist thigs. Ive now watched a few videos of them and there leader tommy robinson. There actually not thigs or racist atall ! There members pf all races within the edl ! Hes even made a speech at the EU meeting ! He speaks alot of truth to be honest and makes good points !
 
Unfortunately the bnp and the EDL do have extremist of their own. Recently an ex BNP and now EDL member was arrested for trying to insight hatred against 2 of my friends, setting up campaigns to say my friends faked their disabilities, were a drain on the economy and should have been put down at birth. Both my friends work and do a lot for charity. The EDL member wasnt even of british origin, she was Thai.
Neither will get my vote until they rid themselves of extremists like this.
 
[video=youtube;yRhq-yO1KN8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8[/video]

Enjoy the long weekend everyone.

Keefy
 
Unfortunately the bnp and the EDL do have extremist of their own. Recently an ex BNP and now EDL member was arrested for trying to insight hatred against 2 of my friends, setting up campaigns to say my friends faked their disabilities, were a drain on the economy and should have been put down at birth. Both my friends work and do a lot for charity. The EDL member wasnt even of british origin, she was Thai.
Neither will get my vote until they rid themselves of extremists like this.

I understand what your saying but before i just assumed the where neo natzi like where now i actually agree with what hes saying. There might be a few bad members i dont know but what he speaks is truth really !
 
Most people are stupid. Not Stupid Stupid. Not 'couldn't-trust-them-to-sit-the-right-way-round-on-a-toilet' stupid. But stupid. Nice, ordinary stupid people. Hardworking, honest stupid people. It's the only word left off those sentences:

'What I want to know is," barks a ruddy faced man in the audience of Question Time, "why should decent, ordinary, hardworking, taxpaying, [stupid] people like me have to pay to keep someone like this in [prison] [benefits] [ballet recitals]?"

Well, perhaps not stupid. That implies a lack of capacity. But they are uninformed and relatively uneducated. What else would they be? It doesn't mean they are bad people. Kids are stupid and we like them.

It's not a big problem either. The vast majority of ordinary life goes just fine if you are stupid. You can buy your food shopping, do your job, raise children, fall in love, have hobbies and feed the cat. That's not all you can do. You can travel the world and stand in awe at it's majesty, you can write a series of number one hits, you can carry out an act of such bravery and self-sacrifice as to make you a martyr for a worthy cause.

But I believe that the core issues around a subject like the one discussed in this thread fall slightly and often out of the skillset of nice ordinary people. It's not that they shouldn't have and voice their opinions - that's democracy (although it's worth noting the indisputable fact that democracy only becomes more effective the more informed the population) but rather than forming useful and reasoned views on political issues - which are complicated and often come down to decisions on morality and ethics (even more complicated) - requires a little more.....training.

You wouldn't know it too look at politicians but this stuff requires some expertise. A level of elitism. We've come to the odd position where people think that everyone has a valid opinion on political matters. Which is nonsense. Everyone is allowed an opinion (apart from the far fringes, the disenfranchised, the imprisoned etc) but that doesn't automatically make it valid. In fact you can usually tell the opinion least worth hearing by the way it begins with the line, "Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think..." Much like the worst rebuttals begin with, "Yes but that's just your opinion..." It's sort of an off-shoot of the culture around words like "respect" and "offense." The belief that simply having a view (religious, cultural, political) means it needs to be treated with respect. It doesn't. Often quite the opposite. And that if you don't like what you hear or what someone says back you can claim to have been offended. Like it gives you special rights to consideration. Which it doesn't. It's just a whine.

Your honest Joe no doubt has a fully functioning moral compass but that doesn't mean it will point the right way when a highly nuanced and complicated moral issue is on the table. Right now some people are no doubt thinking 'What is complicated about what to do with people who preach praise for the butchering of a British soldier on the streets of London?' Well if you can't see the balancing act that must necessarily exist between dealing with the odious and the dangerous and maintaing a civil society with equality before the law and freedom of speech above all else, then I think you've proved my point.

Just like you can guess the views of a woman in a burka or a screeching, rabid mullah, I'm afraid you can all too easily guess the views of the honest, ordinary, taxpaying, hardworking gent who starts off by saying they should be hanged. The more emotional, the more angry you are - the less you have to contribute to debates which require dispassionate and reasoned thought. Which they do.

In this thread, too much kudos is given to ordinaryjoe'ism. I think my point is that if these issues didn't effect everyone we would be quite content to leave them to be hussled out in the worlds of expertise and academia. But they directly effect us and so they become our job. They have to be our job. But many of us are just not qualified to do it. Even though we have to. I'd count myself as one of them, mostly. I don't know nearly enough. But I think I know just enough to know how little I know.

Even though he was talking about candiates running for president, Sam Harris said it quite well:

"Ask yourself: how has "elitism" become a bad word in American politics? There is simply no other walk of life in which extraordinary talent and rigorous training are denigrated. We want elite pilots to fly our planes, elite troops to undertake our most critical missions, elite athletes to represent us in competition and elite scientists to devote the most productive years of their lives to curing our diseases. And yet, when it comes time to vest people with even greater responsibilities, we consider it a virtue to shun any and all standards of excellence. When it comes to choosing the people whose thoughts and actions will decide the fates of millions, then we suddenly want someone just like us, someone fit to have a beer with, someone down-to-earth—in fact, almost anyone, provided that he or she doesn't seem too intelligent or well educated."

So what skills might be missing from the purview of nice ordinary people tackling issues such as this. Well for a start I would suggest a thorough familiarity with and understanding of the immutable and all-trumping right to protected free speech. Nothing gets in the way of this. You hear me? Nothing. No matter how unpleasant someone's views. I would genuinely prefer to live in a country where a lunatic preacher can freely praise acts of heinous brutality and be allowed to stay and afforded the same benefits as everyone else than one where a special, partially-elected bunch of oligarchs can determine - without consultation - whose views can or cannot be heard. It's frustrating how this - the ultimate right - is so often not given the respect it deserves in these discussions. Every generation has a pressing and urgent need to expell a certain class of people, to silence a certain minority, to obtain a perceived modicom of safety in exchange for giving away - just a little - but of their freedom to think, to choose, to listen.

Hitchens said it far better in 7 minutes then I ever could:

Christopher Hitchens -- Free Speech Part 1 - YouTube

I think everyone's view is not equally valid. If you look at the EDL and think they should be given a shot if they weed off a few of the more extreme elements, you are wrong. Objectively wrong. Demonstrably wrong. And should go away and read a book.

It is a fact that the more educated people become the more liberal they become. Conversely, the least well educated will often have the most reactionary, defensive, aggressive views. The ultimate question is why this fact, which stares us all in the face, doesn't get through to people. If you ask Vicky Pollard why she is wearing a tracksuit and fat she might be well aware the answer is because her impoverished background grew in her a propensity for naff clothes and a penchant for fried chips. But ask her why she thinks paedo's should be publically castrated and she'll tell you it's because it's the right thing to do. I'm up for closing this gap. It's ok that people who got less lucky with their educational opportunities have less informed opinions. But it's not ok that they don't know this.

Until they learn this they should be hung, castrated and then deported.

I've forgotten what I was talking about.
 
Oh I just love being called stupid! The current system Doesn't work! Most of us have had enough if this 5hit. And while I agree with most of what you say it seem just another excuse for our leaders to keep up there inactivity.
 
what you forgot to mention was that we live in a country that allows lunatic muslim preachers to praise acts of violence but won't allow the majority of the population who happen to be christian the same chance to voice their opinions without being hauled before the courts on a racism charge
When you dare to voice an opinion about these crimes the racism card is always pulled out when its nothing to do with race it's religion the cause of so many deaths just because some lunatics believes there actually is a god!

just my uneducated opinion for what it's worth
 
Oh I just love being called stupid! The current system Doesn't work! Most of us have had enough if this 5hit. And while I agree with most of what you say it seem just another excuse for our leaders to keep up there inactivity.


I barely read any of the thread and don't remember who posted what so certainly wasn't making any targeted responses. I'm far too interested in my own voice to do that. I also don't fully agree with what I've written, I just enjoy being contentious whilst plausibly well argued. But anyway..

Isn't the current system just a slightly more representational and accountable version of that which we have had for hundreds and hundreds of years? I agree it doesn't work for us. It's not designed to. It's designed to work for the interests of the few. But it would be a sad end to this chapter of history if what finally toppled the oppressive systems of old was Tommy Robinson and his baseball cap of intolerance.

what you forgot to mention was that we live in a country that allows lunatic muslim preachers to praise acts of violence but won't allow the majority of the population who happen to be christian the same chance to voice their opinions without being hauled before the courts on a racism charge
When you dare to voice an opinion about these crimes the racism card is always pulled out when its nothing to do with race it's religion the cause of so many deaths just because some lunatics believes there actually is a god!

just my uneducated opinion for what it's worth

I agree with that. Not sure where I implied otherwise. Although if there is a bias towards the rights of the muslims to be loud and obnoxious it might have been born of their being a minority. The rights to expression of minorities are generally to be offered more protection than those of the majority. Although this can backfire as it turns out they aint half loud.
 
Alot of this is down to consecutive govt inactivity human right carp we cant even put hook hands on a plane to jordan which is a complete joke .
We have thousands of mad mullahs on our streets preaching hate declaring war on us death to the infidel etc etc etc this should not be allowed , the govt need to grow a set and round up any one who has flashed up on mi5's radar and ship them out i dont think anyone with half a brain would object to that .
Islam tho also needs to adapt and do more to recognise that alot of the worlds population see's it as a backward religion and to a point aggresive and evil and you cant just blame bad press on that , only yesterday four people killed in southern thailand by islamists !!
 
Have you seen the other stuff around this ? More to it than just that !

Have you noticed also how the edl will upload a video you can watch it and there isnt anything racist on it atall but then it gets removed ? From all sites ! One of there videos was the most viewed video on youtube last night ! Then got removed !

No I haven't noticed, nor have I seen it reported anywhere.
 
No I haven't noticed, nor have I seen it reported anywhere.

That's due to freedom of speech being denied and censorship taking over.
 
Honestly ive watched some of the stuff and i agree with their points ! But the police etc want them to shut them up ! Like today he was showing a load of interviews he did at their protest he made somthing like 5 interviews with the tob news crews and non of them have made a story because there was no violence ! Nothing went wrong ! The police spokesman said about 1.5-2k people showed up ! There was 7k there ! All marching !

After he was interviewed on the tv the night of the killing dvid cameron said the edl needs to grow up ! But yet he had the leader tommy robinson speaking at the E.U meeting ?

Theres alot going on for the edl and everybodys trying to shut it up ! He got arrested for taking the poppies off the muslims that where burning them then got put in prison for a month ! He was told he wasnt allowed to have emails, phonecalls or meetings involving or to do with the EDL ! Thats not freedom of speech !!!!

He was also gettin interviewed alongside a cheif of police and he said to the cheif of police on blah blah date did you have to give a group of 3 jews an police escort because of fear they would get attacked by muslims for wearing there skull caps ! The policeman agreed but then went to argue againest him !
 
Honestly ive watched some of the stuff and i agree with their points ! But the police etc want them to shut them up ! Like today he was showing a load of interviews he did at their protest he made somthing like 5 interviews with the tob news crews and non of them have made a story because there was no violence ! Nothing went wrong ! The police spokesman said about 1.5-2k people showed up ! There was 7k there ! All marching !

After he was interviewed on the tv the night of the killing dvid cameron said the edl needs to grow up ! But yet he had the leader tommy robinson speaking at the E.U meeting ?

Theres alot going on for the edl and everybodys trying to shut it up ! He got arrested for taking the poppies off the muslims that where burning them then got put in prison for a month ! He was told he wasnt allowed to have emails, phonecalls or meetings involving or to do with the EDL ! Thats not freedom of speech !!!!

He was also gettin interviewed alongside a cheif of police and he said to the cheif of police on blah blah date did you have to give a group of 3 jews an police escort because of fear they would get attacked by muslims for wearing there skull caps ! The policeman agreed but then went to argue againest him !

Please tell me what be EDL has going for it?
 
Its amusing to see the EDL using the death of a man to showboat themselves by being violent, ignorant thugs and smashing up a pub. #irony
 
The edl started off as a movement against islam nothing violent as such but demo's etc problem being is that local thugs and footy hooligans have attached themselves to it and now use them as a channel to be a bunch of racist dirkheads
 
The EDL was founded by the Luton Town football hooligans. The majority will have convictions for football related violence etc, including the leader Tommy Robinson, which isn't his real name but the name of one of the top boys from the Luton Town MIG's football hooligan firm. Although I do agree with certain aspects of what they say, on the whole they are laughable as a political group. They really need to ditch he hangers on who are only there to cause trouble to get any kind of political recognition.
 
Ive only been watching the edl stuff since the killing ill be honest and yer i do agree with what they say but tet do make good point about the likes of freedom of speech ! Yesterday they had a protest and they say 7 thousand turned up and from the videos id agree but yet the police are saying 1.5k ? And the papers all saying about 1k ? Whys that ? Why aint they showing that side ? The man made 5 interviews to news crews not one was posted ! Why ?

Because they wanted the interviews incase it turned into a riot then showed te videos and blamed the EDL ! Im not the edl supporter although i dp sound like im singing praises here but they are speaking some truth ! Go watch some of the videos and tell me you dont agree with some if not all of what there saying !
 
Its something that the news crews dont want to show imho big groups of people chanting anti muslim and patriotic songs doesnt really go well with govt spin and its easy to tar them as racists which they arnt.
 
is it better than a religion against life???

i havent got time for any of it edl anti muslims whatever as to busy chasing money ,stressing over work and why hoovers are crap these days
 
There was a great politician once who said the streets would run red with blood if they kept letting so many ethnic minorities in
Guess he was right
Enoch Powell rip
 
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