Info for people considering fast tracking

[GQuigley67]

anyone thinking of paying thousands of pounds for a fast track course should read this article first

[DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/News/Are-fast-track-plumbing-courses-just-money-down-the-drain/"]Are fast-track plumbing courses just money down the drain? - CIPHE[/DLMURL]

short part of article:

Some companies offering fast-track courses claim there is a nationwide shortage of plumbers. "The country is in dire need of qualified plumbers," says Train4TradeSkills on its website, quoting a former trainee who "never takes home less than £1,200 per week". New Career Skills, another private training company, says in its latest brochure: "The massive plumbing shortage provides an opportunity for those who want a lucrative, secure and fulfilling career."
The reality can be very different. Ivor Bates, who runs a London plumbing firm, Bates Heating and Plumbing, says he is contacted three or four times each week by people who have completed a fast-track course and are desperate for work experience to achieve the industry-standard NVQ level 2.
"Around 10% of these guys offer to work for nothing and say they have rung endless plumbing companies and will do anything to get a foot in the door," he says. "One bloke saw my van outside Asda and ran into the supermarket after me and offered to pay me to take him on. But I would never take someone from one of these short courses because they have not got experience of working on-site and I would not be confident sending them into customers' homes."

 

[Blackcatgas]

Like all the best cons, it relies on peoples greed, promises of 50k a year etc,people will become blinkerd, even when confronted with the truth people will still do these courses.

 

[GQuigley67]

thought its a good article to have on here though, as it is from CIPHE who are a governing body

 

[pauls]

one bloke takes home a minimum os £1,200 a week i wish they way things are at the moment im lucky to get that a month lol

 

[GQuigley67]

maybe i wrote the title wrong think it should be "info for people considering fast tracking" if one of the mods can change it or something ?

 

[fuzzy]

ive been saying it for ages on here. i am worried they will ruin the plumbing industry with their lies and then leave. leaving us to pick up the pieces

 

[Bartdude]

I had 2 letters asking for a job this week.

 

[Puddle]

maybe i wrote the title wrong think it should be "info for people considering fast tracking" if one of the mods can change it or something ?

no problem,was that one suger or two 😛🙂

Good article, must admit, I must be a skin flint coz if I was going to shell out over £7000 or just over a couple of weeks wages 🙂, I would really research and investigate what I was getting into and what I would be getting out of it

I always say to people, think about the hobby you have, look how long it took to be good at it and that is something you are probably really interesting in, remember the books you read on it in the beginning and the hours you listened to others with experience ,then think how long it took you to put it all into practice, to learn the little tricks and mistakes you still made, mistakes you have to make, to learn, you soon realise you can not learn any profession in such a short period

Slowly the puddles become smaller but until they do you need an experienced person by your side showing you the best way to mop up

£7000 is a lot of money but it can not mop up a lot

imho

 

[GQuigley67]

here's another bit of info

[DLMURL="http://www.unitetheunion.org/sectors/construction/industry_news/fast_track_plumber_training_-_.aspx"]Fast Track Plumber Training - Beware[/DLMURL]

now I've came across these 2 pages with only about an hour or so of research, why don't these people do the same ?

 

[fuzzy]

"organisations advertising themselves, quite legally, as City & Guilds registered, but they are not registered to deliver the specific plumbing qualification so the learner cannot be certified"

my point when people come on here saying "i have a city and guilds" a city and guids what?

 

[fuzzy]

and that latest one is 5 years old!

 

[Barry98]

for most of the ones i know this is how they end up within a few year

JOB LOT Plumbing Mixed Tools/Parts/Taps ETC on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 14:03:31 GMT)

 

[fuzzy]

lol, loks like another who has given up and wrote off their 7/8k

 

[Bartdude]

for most of the ones i know this is how they end up within a few year

JOB LOT Plumbing Mixed Tools/Parts/Taps ETC on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 14:03:31 GMT)

They don't look like they've seen much action!

 

[Gray0689]

They don't look like they've seen much action!

Few decent items in that lot to

 

[plumbster3456]

ive been saying it for ages on here. i am worried they will ruin the plumbing industry with their lies and then leave. leaving us to pick up the pieces

bye the things i hear on here I think this has already happened down south I bet its actually homeowners who are doing these courses as they are terrified that they are going to get another cowboy dong work in there homes lol.

 

[Dannypipe]

What bothers me, is that they sell finance to these people, telling them they'll be earning so much, that they'll probably pay it off early.

I met a bloke who was about 40 years old, and had borrowed nearly 13K (yes 13,000) to go from nothing to Gas Safe Registered.

He fell at the first hurdle when he didn't read the small print, and realised it was down to him to find someone to sign of his portfolios, his NVQ 2, his NVQ 3 and his gas portfolio.

He was in the merchants begging people to let him tag along for free. He bent my ear for half hour and I realised nice as he was, he'd slow me down too much, and when he finally did have the experience, he'd leave and pitch up as my competitor. So I along with everyone else I saw declined.

What's he up to now I wonder? My guess is he went back to his old job, and licked his wounds. Must still be making his payments.

The funny thing to me is, we're just plumbers, not premier league footballers. There's no glamour in our work. The money can be ok, but its not epic by any means.

People believe everything they read in the papers. So frankly if they're foolish enough to listen to the speil, and not see through it, then they have themselves to blame, at least partly.

 

[plumbster3456]

lol 13 grand to go to college then? no apprenticeship nothing at all except a seat in a classroom come on guys surely there isnt people crazy enough to do this.
plumbing is no gold mine if you want this become a banker,, some plumbers earn good money but these are the ones that are very good and this you wont be bye doing one of these courses.
I think it is actually a con why is the government or trading standards not investigating these colleges who do this to people ?

 

[fuzzy]

met someone the other day who had spent 10k and had his 6129 level 2 and 3. he was doing the same, desperate for a placement to get his nvq;s. How do these people continue to fall for the rubbish they are told? they fall for the promise of money, heres to another one dropping out with 10k less than he started with

 

[Bartdude]

The funny thing to me is, we're just plumbers, not premier league footballers. There's no glamour in our work. The money can be ok, but its not epic by any means.

Exactly.It can be a good living,but we all know how hard you have to work for it.

My brother-in-law runs a computer games company,and he's the one earning top money,not me!

 

[Resolute]

When I went to college to complete my 6129 I knew I had to complete my portfolio to get my NVQ as I'd researched it. However the college didn't mention it and no one else on the course realised until I said. They all thought that the course they were on would leave them qualified.

 

[fuzzy]

i remeber one lad coming talking to me who had been to college and was going mad that he was on a 6129 and he had been promised the nvq. when he showed me the induction material it clearly stated 6129 only, nothing was mentioned about the nvq

people see and hear what they want to see and hear

 

[Resolute]

people see and hear what they want to see and hear

Too true!

 

[Hutchey]

why are there so many negative comments?
Does learning this from a young age at college or Uni etc mean its better than distance learning?

I'm a Project Manager and was laid off last year when BSF was axed. Next to nothing since. No money equals no projects equals no jobs.
Back in the good days the money was great but with up to 6hrs travelling per day it takes its toll.
Now i'm not saying its rosey here or there but if a late 30's guy like me wants to retrain whilst trying to pay bills, what other choices do we have?
Too old for college, too old for apprenticeships (if there are any of these left).
So the only avenue is something like this.
For me it's about quality of life, less of a commute and frankly i've had enough of projects inefficiencies, wasting money, failed deliveries, changing politics etc that cause so much aggro each day.
I suspect plumbing also has its down sides but id like to be the one to find out.
I'd like to work for someone. I've been self employed for years and it has good and bad points.

I'm only part of my way through one of these courses and i'm finding it flexible to allow me to try to find soem work to pay the bills whilst i learn.
I've been very fortunate that a plumber allowed me to help him with a load of new pipe work installation.
He showed me the very basics and allowed me to solder, bend, install radiators, help drain the system and also threw some questions at me on some topics.

So come on folk, its not our fault we chose this path, maybe we think the grass is greener but let us try to find out.
For one i'd be losing masses financially but then its not as important for me now as my priorities have changed.

no offence to anyone, just my thoughts at this early stage.

 

[GQuigley67]

when i was at college, there were about 3 40+ guys in my class. They managed to get apprenticeships, and I know alot of other people that did also. My point when posting this was these courses are making it out that we earn millions when we dont, and pointing out that to an employer you are not in any way attractive unless you have NVQ level 2 at least in england or SVQ level 3 in scotland, then its all about experience the more experience you have the more chance you have of getting a job.

The point is these courses are promising lies, and false hope. I accept that there are a minority who go on to become sucsesful but most give up and cut their loses and go back to their old jobs

 

[smartallick]

why are there so many negative comments?
Does learning this from a young age at college or Uni etc mean its better than distance learning?

I'm a Project Manager and was laid off last year when BSF was axed. Next to nothing since. No money equals no projects equals no jobs.
Back in the good days the money was great but with up to 6hrs travelling per day it takes its toll.
Now i'm not saying its rosey here or there but if a late 30's guy like me wants to retrain whilst trying to pay bills, what other choices do we have?
Too old for college, too old for apprenticeships (if there are any of these left).
So the only avenue is something like this.
For me it's about quality of life, less of a commute and frankly i've had enough of projects inefficiencies, wasting money, failed deliveries, changing politics etc that cause so much aggro each day.
I suspect plumbing also has its down sides but id like to be the one to find out.
I'd like to work for someone. I've been self employed for years and it has good and bad points.

I'm only part of my way through one of these courses and i'm finding it flexible to allow me to try to find soem work to pay the bills whilst i learn.
I've been very fortunate that a plumber allowed me to help him with a load of new pipe work installation.
He showed me the very basics and allowed me to solder, bend, install radiators, help drain the system and also threw some questions at me on some topics.

So come on folk, its not our fault we chose this path, maybe we think the grass is greener but let us try to find out.
For one i'd be losing masses financially but then its not as important for me now as my priorities have changed.

no offence to anyone, just my thoughts at this early stage.

Hi Hutchey,

I'm new to this myself. I am thinking about starting the new 6189 course and also have a plumber willing to help me through it with the onsite visits from the NVQ assessors. As you have experienced the courses would you advise this route being 35 and wanting to change jobs into plumbing. Nice to see someone not been so negative about it all.

 

[fuzzy]

you are confusing negative with realistic. I can be as positive as you like many sales people i mean centre advisors will be positive. Just pay them the money and they will be very positive, i garantee it

 

[GQuigley67]

were not being negative we are being realistic, the amount of people i know with experience that arent working the now is unreal, if they cant get a job then how do you expect to get one with your 6129 or whatever its called ?

 

[Hutchey]

there's mass unemployment accross the board. Some builders, electricians and plumbers i know have weeks of work stacked up - other have very little if any.
All i want is the chance to at least try something different. Either way right now i have nothing to lose as no work is no work!
Nowhere is taking on apprentices and colleges told me i was too old so what can you do.
I'm not sure if i'd recommend it or not as not being on this long at all. Only 9 modules in and on the Water Regs bit now.
Right now, for me this feels like the good thing to do.

 

[Hutchey]

the nvq bit is worth checking up on though. not just the 61?? bit.

 

[GQuigley67]

the NVQ is essential if you want to be classed as a plumber, you wont be recognised as one without it, i.e CSCS cards CIPHE membership etc

 

[Gavin]

It's amazing people are still forking out big ££££ for courses that leave them high and dry. It's down to you to research the career you are looking into. How thick do you have to be to go into something where it costs you a fortune to be not qualified and there is barely a lick of work about?

The eyes see only what the mind wants. The suckers who are lured into parting with cash for these courses deserve everything they get.

 

[Hutchey]

i think that's a very narrow minded view Gavin
If you were looking at getting into my line of work, you'd be looking at retraining and having to beg for work, pay extortionate amounts for some courses (some are cheapish), spending ages trawling through manuals and doing practicals (in some cases too)

with this type of attitude no wonder this country gets a bad reputation with its workforce.

 

[johnmcginty]

I can't believe it took them cihpe that long to put this info on their website, even last year if you went on it it said itself there were a shortage of plumbers...crazy... I mean I did fasttrack back in the day and I only pull in £1100 a week ...never mind this crazy £1200 a week nonesense 😉

 

[tamz]

I think i have posted this link before but here it is again
http://www.snijib.org/documents/PolicyPaperNo1FAstTrackTraining300909final.pdf

and another quote
TRAINING SCHOOLS ROBBING STUDENTS
Industry unites against ‘rogue trainers’

Training schools which offer qualifications and then fail to deliver are costing students thousands of pounds, says the Plumbing and Heating Industry Alliance (PHIA). The Alliance, which represents some 20-trade bodies with over 30,000 members in the UK, is campaigning to put an end to what it calls ‘rogue trainers’. PHIA chairman, Chris Sneath says, “There’s a crazy situation where anyone can set themselves up as a training school and claim to teach someone to be a qualified plumber in as little as four weeks. Needless to say, these get rich quick merchants charge a fortune - I’ve heard of as much as £5000 - but the would-be plumbers parting with their money end up with virtually nothing, certainly not the means to start a legitimate career in our industry. It’s nothing short of daylight robbery.”

The industry’s accepted qualification for a plumber is National or Scottish Vocational Qualification (NVQ or SVQ) at Level 3. Typically this takes a minimum of two to three years training on the job, combined with study at a recognised training provider – such as college of further education. Chris Sneath again: “The entire plumbing and heating industry recognises the NVQ at level 3, a completed formal apprenticeship or appropriate experience over many years as the minimum for a legitimate plumber. Un-regulated trainers will often turn out cowboy plumbers, with all the risks to public health that entails. But sad to say, the government doesn’t want to know. I’ve personally spoken to government representatives but their attitude is to claim they don’t want to interfere in what they call ‘free market practice”.

The Plumbing & Heating Industry Alliance is asking the media to support its campaign by refusing advertising from these rogue trainers. “We often see adverts for them contained in newspaper career supplements,” says Chris Sneath. “We do realise that it’s not always easy to instantly recognise the good from the bad but we at the Alliance are very happy to offer advice.” The PHIA hopes that its campaign will help to eradicate what has become a problem across the country, with countless thousands of pounds being lost by innocent people seeking a career in our industry.

The Plumbing & Heating Industry Alliance includes:

• The Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (IPHE)
• The Heating and Ventilating Contractors Association (HVCA)
• The Association of Plumbing and Heating Contractors (APHC)
• SummitSkills (The Sector Skills Council for the Industry)
• The Worshipful Company of Plumbers
• The Scottish and Northern Ireland Plumbing Employers Federation (SNIPEF)
• The Joint Industry Board for Plumbing and Mechanical
  Engineering Services in England and Wales
• British Plumbing Employers Council Training Ltd (BPEC)
• The Institute of Domestic Heating and Environmental Engineers (IDHE)
• National Association of Plumbing Teachers (NAPT)
• The Bathroom Manufacturers Association (BMA)

You may think these people and organisations just like to shout at the moon and would like the industry to be a closed shop but that is not the case.

I think Puddle put it across excellently in his analogy

I always say to people, think about the hobby you have, look how long it took to be good at it and that is something you are probably really interesting in, remember the books you read on it in the beginning and the hours you listened to others with experience ,then think how long it took you to put it all into practice, to learn the little tricks and mistakes you still made, mistakes you have to make, to learn, you soon realise you can not learn any profession in such a short period

Slowly the puddles become smaller but until they do you need an experienced person by your side showing you the best way to mop up

£7000 is a lot of money but it can not mop up a lot

imho

Anyone thinking of doing one of these courses should think hard and realistically before spending their cash on what may turn out to be an expensive lesson in life.

 

[GQuigley67]

great post tamz, looks like you need to be a member to read the second one though ..

 

[fuzzy]

When I went to college to complete my 6129 I knew I had to complete my portfolio to get my NVQ as I'd researched it. However the college didn't mention it and no one else on the course realised until I said. They all thought that the course they were on would leave them qualified.

when i point out the facts about courses i get called negative. thats the reaction you get from many newbies as its not what they want to hear. when they get half way through and it dawns on them its all the centres fault!😕

 

[GQuigley67]

i discussed it at the college today, one of the ACS assessors says they get guys coming in with level 2s asking to do their ACS, not realising you need level 3 and a gas foundation course

 

[Dannypipe]

As said people want to hear what the want to hear. Who wants to hear it'll take you four years to get properly qualified. I wouldn't want anyone doing work in my house unless they has 4 years training and workplace experience. I wouldn't want someone to service my boiler unless they had a few more years than that.

Not being funny, but who likes the idea of a junior doctor checking you out, or a novice mechanic changing your brakes...same goes with most things.

You don't realise how green some of the newly qualified guys are until you employ one. I mean no offense, we all have to start somewhere.

 

[fuzzy]

i discussed it at the college today, one of the ACS assessors says they get guys coming in with level 2s asking to do their ACS, not realising you need level 3 and a gas foundation course

you dont need level 3? level 3 tech cert or nvq do you mean? nvq3 has acs in anyway. tc3 is no better than tc or nothing as your a cat3. nvq2 is cat 2

 

[tamz]

looks like you need to be a member to read the second one though ..

So you do Gerry. Never noticed as i must have been still logged in.

 

[GQuigley67]

SVQ level 3 is the minimum required in scotland thats what i mean fuzz and that requires an apprenticeship, to be able to do the ACS u need that. You get gas foundation courses for people who didnt do it at college but want to do later in life. This is what one of the lecturers told me today i was at the college for a vaillant day course

 

[fuzzy]

SVQ level 3 is the minimum required in scotland thats what i mean fuzz and that requires an apprenticeship, to be able to do the ACS u need that. You get gas foundation courses for people who didnt do it at college but want to do later in life. This is what one of the lecturers told me today i was at the college for a vaillant day course

you dont need any quals to do the ACS, where ever you are

 

[GQuigley67]

i dont know thats what he said, just told the guys they cant do it unless they have level 3 and do a gas foundation course which is right if you ask me

 

[fuzzy]

i dont know thats what he said, just told the guys they cant do it unless they have level 3 and do a gas foundation course which is right if you ask me

wasnt saying it was right or wrong. just saying that you dont need any quals to sit your acs, they are misleading you

 

[GQuigley67]

i know you werent saying if it was right or wrong, i was just saying he's quite right turning down these guys that turn up with not enough qualifications.

 

[fuzzy]

i know you werent saying if it was right or wrong, i was just saying he's quite right turning down these guys that turn up with not enough qualifications.

he has no right to refuse if they meet the criteria, you dont need any quals to do your acs

 

[Ivor Bates]

And here I am, originally it was an article done for the Guardian newspaper who asked me for an interview as they had seen some of my replies on Gumtree's forums to guy's looking to fastrackinto the plumbing industry. The main gripe I have about this fast track system is this myth on earnings but it's always displayed as potential earnings. But like most things you read what you want to read and that is is £40k+. Even in London you will struggle to earn figures like that, certain plumbing companies in London have done the industry little or no favours at all, but it is all part of their self publicity and gullible people take on board what they say. You may well earn £1200 one week, but the following you might only earn £400 and the following £700 and the following £1500 at that rate you'll be on just over £45k pa but then if you have 2,3,6, or 9 weeks of no work then your £45k has just blown away into fantasy land.... As for the amount of calls I get now from both fast track and old school plumbers anywhere between 5-10 per day with the eqivilent in emails... so go figure it out

anyone thinking of paying thousands of pounds for a fast track course should read this article first

[DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/News/Are-fast-track-plumbing-courses-just-money-down-the-drain/"]Are fast-track plumbing courses just money down the drain? - CIPHE[/DLMURL]

short part of article:

Some companies offering fast-track courses claim there is a nationwide shortage of plumbers. "The country is in dire need of qualified plumbers," says Train4TradeSkills on its website, quoting a former trainee who "never takes home less than £1,200 per week". New Career Skills, another private training company, says in its latest brochure: "The massive plumbing shortage provides an opportunity for those who want a lucrative, secure and fulfilling career."
The reality can be very different. Ivor Bates, who runs a London plumbing firm, Bates Heating and Plumbing, says he is contacted three or four times each week by people who have completed a fast-track course and are desperate for work experience to achieve the industry-standard NVQ level 2.
"Around 10% of these guys offer to work for nothing and say they have rung endless plumbing companies and will do anything to get a foot in the door," he says. "One bloke saw my van outside Asda and ran into the supermarket after me and offered to pay me to take him on. But I would never take someone from one of these short courses because they have not got experience of working on-site and I would not be confident sending them into customers' homes."

 

[fuzzy]

5-10 people applying for non exisitant plumbing positions is an insight into how much work is out there!!

 

[electric ellie]

i am fully qualed electrician, but out of work - i am looking into these sorts of courses but only because i have work ex lined up - surely that is ok?

 

[Ivor Bates]

Look this courses are great if you want to plumb your own bathroom suite in, but apart from that not a lot..

 

[BikerBen]

Bit of an expensive way to learn how to plumb in a bathroom suite 😉

I think I could do that already with my basic albeit limited practical knowledge 🙂

When I contacted one of these companies out of curiosity I found that they were like vultures and wouldnt leave me alone! They kept ringing me up to see if I was ready to sign up but gave ropey answers when I asked searching questions = a scam.

 

[curlycan]

I'd just like to say thankyou for putting this thread on. I have a person from train4tradeskills coming to give me information about their courses tomorrow as I was interested in training as a plumber to go along side my tiling work due to the fact I'm always getting asked if I do plumbing. After reading this thread I will certainly not be taking the course as I don't have 7 grand to waste. And respect for all you apprenticeship served plumbers the way to go would be a proper 4 year course if you want to do it properly.

 

[leelister6]

I'd just like to say thankyou for putting this thread on. I have a person from train4tradeskills coming to give me information about their courses tomorrow as I was interested in training as a plumber to go along side my tiling work due to the fact I'm always getting asked if I do plumbing. After reading this thread I will certainly not be taking the course as I don't have 7 grand to waste. And respect for all you apprenticeship served plumbers the way to go would be a proper 4 year course if you want to do it properly.

Your best bet is to get in touch with local plumbers and see if you can get tiling work via them and you can then pass their number on when you're asked about a plumber and vice versa. I've fitted quite a few bathrooms by doing this and got tilers a load of work too

 

[fuzzy]

I'd just like to say thankyou for putting this thread on. I have a person from train4tradeskills coming to give me information about their courses tomorrow as I was interested in training as a plumber to go along side my tiling work due to the fact I'm always getting asked if I do plumbing. After reading this thread I will certainly not be taking the course as I don't have 7 grand to waste. And respect for all you apprenticeship served plumbers the way to go would be a proper 4 year course if you want to do it properly.

try a local college, maybe ask about this course

[DLMURL="http://www.cityandguilds.com/56819.html?search_term=2000"]Certificate/Diploma in Access to Building Services Engineering | Construction and Building[/DLMURL]

 

[bikeman01]

met someone the other day who had spent 10k and had his 6129 level 2 and 3. he was doing the same, desperate for a placement to get his nvq;s. How do these people continue to fall for the rubbish they are told? they fall for the promise of money, heres to another one dropping out with 10k less than he started with

You probably started out as an apprentice and went on to self employment and are now master of your own destiny.

We followed a differemt career route, one where we worked for someone else who eventually decided they had no furter use for us.

So lets get something straight - we're not seduced by easy work for big money - we're normal guys who are being hit by redundancies and need to change careers in mid life - self empoyment may be our only option.

Yes I know the thread is a momnth or 2 old but I had a point to make.

 

[fuzzy]

You probably started out as an apprentice and went on to self employment and are now master of your own destiny.

We followed a differemt career route, one where we worked for someone else who eventually decided they had no furter use for us.

So lets get something straight - we're not seduced by easy work for big money - we're normal guys who are being hit by redundancies and need to change careers in mid life - self empoyment may be our only option.

Yes I know the thread is a momnth or 2 old but I had a point to make.

and you think paying 10k for a small chance of a career plus no nvq is a wise choice? Lets get one thing straight, being in a difficult position is one thing, paying 10k for a course with little chance of employment should only be done if you know the risks and have done the homework. Im telling you as it is, it may not be nice to hear but these are the facts.

i hope it works out for him all the same

 

[bikeman01]

Of course no one should hand over £10k without knowing what they are getting for it but not all are fools some are just desperate.

Having said that there does seem to be an underlying resentment in the trade that anyone should be able to fast track entry yet there is also a reluctance on their part to take on trainees (young and old) - bit of a catch22.

One day work will pickup, you will have retired and we'll have a skills shortage again.

 

[fuzzy]

Of course no one should hand over £10k without knowing what they are getting for it but not all are fools some are just desperate.

Having said that there does seem to be an underlying resentment in the trade that anyone should be able to fast track entry yet there is also a reluctance on their part to take on trainees (young and old) - bit of a catch22.

One day work will pickup, you will have retired and we'll have a skills shortage again.

Or desperate fools? getting a 10k debt wont help anybodies situation.

I have heard that some centres let newbies believe that the feedback from qualified tradesmen is negative because they dont want them entering the trade and becoming competition. In my experience this is not the case, they are however fiercely protective of the trade and why shouldnt they be?
All tradesmen should be training and assessed to the same standards, therefore ensuring the same quality and a level playing field. The trade qualifications are there to protect the industry, they ensure we all meet the correct standards and for good reason. Poor quals and short cuts will lead to poorly trained tradesmen, a lowering of credibility for the industry which will affect all tradesmen and clients in the future.

Companies will take on apprentices when they need to, the supply and demand system provides trainees to the industry when they are needed, so there are highs and lows but these follow the industry trends, its self regulating, so dont worry about being short of skilled trades in the future. It happened about 8 years ago and the industry trained 1,000s of people, hence now we have plenty, any shortage will quickly be remedied.

Nobody owes anyone a living

 

[Barry98]

work to live not live to work

 

[dontknowitall]

Start with a large fortune and you end up with a small fortune ...

Mind you, if it works, it's a good £10k well spent. My course cost around £5k and OFTEC another £2k but best £7k I've spent.

 

[fuzzy]

it can be a good investment, but the guy i spoke to hadnt had one days work since qualifying in tech certs. he had bought a van and tools etc, he was so proud to tell me about all these new gleaming tools, i felt sorry or him

 

[bikeman01]

It happened about 8 years ago and the industry trained 1,000s of people, hence now we have plenty...

mmm I remember the govt claims of a shortage of plumbers prompted massive marketing of plumbing courses by training centres and the promise of unrealistic earnings. Result a massive uptake in training, a surplus of trained plumbers with no experience and the skills shortage negated by an influx of foreign workers.

At no time during all this did the industry train up 1000s.

 

[fuzzy]

mmm I remember the govt claims of a shortage of plumbers prompted massive marketing of plumbing courses by training centres and the promise of unrealistic earnings. Result a massive uptake in training, a surplus of trained plumbers with no experience and the skills shortage negated by an influx of foreign workers.

At no time during all this did the industry train up 1000s.

the government cannot be responsible for centres promising unrealistic earnings. If i recall correctly it was mainly the press who made those claims.
I have never come across many foreign workers at all, however many people tell me they are there taking the jobs off newly qualified plumbers, i have not seen this, in fact i cannot think of one foreign plumber i have come across in merseyside
"At no time during all this did industry train up 1,000s" I'm sorry my friend but around 8,000 have completed the full NVQs during this period. Where did you base this claim from if i may ask

 

[tamz]

mmm I remember the govt claims of a shortage of plumbers prompted massive marketing of plumbing courses by training centres and the promise of unrealistic earnings. Result a massive uptake in training, a surplus of trained plumbers with no experience and the skills shortage negated by an influx of foreign workers.

At no time during all this did the industry train up 1000s.

The industry has always trained up new tradesmen to suit demand and i can assure you at the start of the 000's they trained up numbers to suit the demand.

The cries of shortages of plumbers was from the press and a few government ministers who wouldn't know a plumber if he kicked him and were hyped out of all proportion.

You want a plumber in the next hour and yes you have very few to choose from and you may not get one but, if you want one for tomorrow or the next day you can choose from nearly anyone you like. We do not spend our days sitting by the phone hoping it rings to do an emergency job. Most work is planned work. Saying that there are now 1000's of plumbers doing just that, sitting waiting on the phone to ring as the trade is over subscribed and there is comparitively very little work to be done.

Yes things will turn around once more and there will be more work, but it won't be for a good few years and will never get to the crazy heights of the past decade. Rates are also being driven down to a point where jobs are being offered at not much above minimum wage and work is being done at prices less than those charged 20 years ago. It takes a very long time for rates to recover. If there is a shortage of plumbers in a few years it will be because of the numbers of tradesmen leaving the trade to make a half decent wage elsewhere.

Fuzzy

The sites (any that are still going) are full of foreign workers. Not so many around this way doing jobbing plumbing.

 

[Ivor Bates]

I think you'll find that it was certain plumbing companies in London that were advertising for labour, who stated in their adverts that you could earn up to £50k pa. This was mainly the rip off merchants that worked on a 60/40 percentage. So an average job like changeing a 15/50 pump would cost anything upto £4-£500 however the bubble soon burst because once papers like the Sun and Evening Standard started writing about what plumbers can earn, everyone wants a slice of the action. The reallity is that very few plumbers were ever earning these kind of figures unless of course they were working 16+ hours a day. Some of my mates that were doing this all ended up getting divorced and losing everything simply because they gave up their family / social lives just to earn another tenner....

 

[fuzzy]

i haven't come across many tamz but im guessing they are in the major city's more

 

[bikeman01]

"At no time during all this did industry train up 1,000s" I'm sorry my friend but around 8,000 have completed the full NVQs during this period. Where did you base this claim from if i may ask

I accept that this is just a layman's view but I base it on taking an interest in the local job market and never ever seeing any vacancies over the intervening period since a shortage was publicised. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

And yes I do blame the government. Maybe not for the unrealistic wage claims but for their misinterpretation of statistics. They did the same with HIPs and when faced with the backlash of thousands of trainees who'd forked out £7000 they decided to extend it's remit to rental properties just to give these people work.

There is a lack of joined up thinkingin uk government regardless of who is in power.

 

[fuzzy]

my local college had 60 apprentices in 2004

the gov have made mistakes, but i think its unfair to blame this one on them. They put a lot of money into education, mid 2000s all adult courses for trades were free, obviously that couldnt continue

 

[GQuigley67]

not so long ago i done my apprenticeship, probably around the time the shortage was announced, and there were alot of plumbes at my college, aswell as all the other collegs in the city. So yes there are still apprenticeships, and you can only become a recognised plumber in scotland with an SVQ3 which is a 4 year apprenticeship, lvl 2 doesnt exist up here really...

I had about 3 guys in my class who were 40+ some others were 25, 28 etc while the majority of us were teenagers.

 

[fuzzy]

the gov have done their bit, not saying they are perfect obviously not but the last labour gov were good on education

some people feel hard done too now they struggle to convert their tc 6129's, i understand that and feel sorry for them but they should have done their home work better, not do it then blame plumbers who are struggling to make a living for not letting them in, it aint like that

 

[tamz]

What i find hard to comprehend is people who claim to have done their reasearch, spent X amount of thousands and cry they have no recognised qualification with no chance of a job. If they had really done their research they would find you don't need any qualifications to trade as a plumber. They could have bought a couple of books a half decent van and a good set of tools for the same cash. They still wouldn't be employable but could go do their own thing and make just as much of a mess up of things than if they had been "trained".
Theory training is nothing without practical experience and you learn that fastest by your mistakes. Wreck the odd house now and again and you'll remember what not to do :lol:

 

[GQuigley67]

lol true, after a few expensive public liability claims and feeling like a prat when asked to fix things you dont have a clue about

 

[fuzzy]

well said tamz, they appear to have researched and listened to the bits they wanted to hear, then blame lumbers for being obstructive.

with the new quals you dont even get a tech cert, you get to know your working towards!! so you dont even get any qual without a job, give it 12 months there will be some desperate people wanting jobs to justify all that money for no qual

 

[tamz]

When signing up to these courses it is a case of it is easy to believe someone when they tell you what you want to hear.

Later, it can be hard to listen to what you don't want to hear, by which time, the reality starts to sink in, which makes it painfull listening.

 

[bikeman01]

What i find hard to comprehend is people who claim to have done their reasearch, spent X amount of thousands and cry they have no recognised qualification with no chance of a job. If they had really done their research they would find you don't need any qualifications to trade as a plumber. They could have bought a couple of books a half decent van and a good set of tools for the same cash. They still wouldn't be employable but could go do their own thing and make just as much of a mess up of things than if they had been "trained".
Theory training is nothing without practical experience and you learn that fastest by your mistakes. Wreck the odd house now and again and you'll remember what not to do :lol:

So whats the problem then? Anyone whos done a course and has a bit of diy nounce can use what they've learnt and get on with it.

The only prob seems to be getting their portfolio for gas safe.

I guess once working in the industry for themselves they'll get experience and then through the contacts they make perhaps get that required portfolio.

I don't think these courses are a waste of money, they might be a bit expensive but accept that they just provide some theory and a bit of coursework to get you started. Go in with your eyes open and dont expect that a 4 week course + £7k to = new career.

Lets hope more people read these threads and attend these courses knowing what they are getting. Of course if they are being missold then there needs to be some wrist slapping.

I knew none of this yesterday but I think my eyes are now fully open.

 

[leelister6]

You also have to remember that a good reputation is extremely difficult to build and so very easy to lose! The first time a new business cocks a relatively simple job up through lack of experience, word spreads like wildfire and you may as well hang up yer pipeslice! You need to have the sense to know when to walk away from a job that is beyond you and not "Have a go, whats the worst that could happen!"

 

[bikeman01]

maybe, although 'Rogue Traders' suggests that some just have to change their company name to keep getting away with it.

I'm already self-employed so I know the value of a happy customer.

 

[fuzzy]

So whats the problem then? Anyone whos done a course and has a bit of diy nounce can use what they've learnt and get on with it. This is a very simplistic view, i dont think anyone with 'a bit of nounce' can do gas, as i previously said based on my experience those with a little knowledge are more dangerous. Plumbing is not just bathrooms, something else people need to realise

The only prob seems to be getting their portfolio for gas safe. The only prob? what about the plumbing nvq? what about a workplace recorder?

I guess once working in the industry for themselves they'll get experience and then through the contacts they make perhaps get that required portfolio. You need to be working with a gas safe registered engineer who is willing to sign to say you have done at least 140 days work on gas supervised by him/her, thats presuming you have go the nvq/s, without them its 240 days

I don't think these courses are a waste of money, they might be a bit expensive but accept that they just provide some theory and a bit of coursework to get you started. Go in with your eyes open and dont expect that a 4 week course + £7k to = new career. depends what the course is,, the 6129 has a poor reputation, however i maintain it is a very good course, better than people give it credit for, however its reputation is poor so for potential earnings afterwards it probably is a waste of money

Lets hope more people read these threads and attend these courses knowing what they are getting. Of course if they are being missold then there needs to be some wrist slapping. 'wrist slapping' bit late by then im afraid, 7k out of pocket and no career

I knew none of this yesterday but I think my eyes are now fully open.​Im glad to hear it, i hope people do this research sooner in future

 

[fuzzy]

maybe, although 'Rogue Traders' suggests that some just have to change their company name to keep getting away with it.

I'm already self-employed so I know the value of a happy customer.

Not a business plan i would recommend, do a bad job, change name, and so on. You wonder why these courses have a bad name?

 

[bikeman01]

So whats the problem then? Anyone whos done a course and has a bit of diy nounce can use what they've learnt and get on with it. This is a very simplistic view, i dont think anyone with 'a bit of nounce' can do gas, as i previously said based on my experience those with a little knowledge are more dangerous. Plumbing is not just bathrooms, something else people need to realise

The only prob seems to be getting their portfolio for gas safe. The only prob? what about the plumbing nvq? what about a workplace recorder?

I guess once working in the industry for themselves they'll get experience and then through the contacts they make perhaps get that required portfolio. You need to be working with a gas safe registered engineer who is willing to sign to say you have done at least 140 days work on gas supervised by him/her, thats presuming you have go the nvq/s, without them its 240 days

I don't think these courses are a waste of money, they might be a bit expensive but accept that they just provide some theory and a bit of coursework to get you started. Go in with your eyes open and dont expect that a 4 week course + £7k to = new career. depends what the course is,, the 6129 has a poor reputation, however i maintain it is a very good course, better than people give it credit for, however its reputation is poor so for potential earnings afterwards it probably is a waste of money

Lets hope more people read these threads and attend these courses knowing what they are getting. Of course if they are being missold then there needs to be some wrist slapping. 'wrist slapping' bit late by then im afraid, 7k out of pocket and no career

I knew none of this yesterday but I think my eyes are now fully open.​Im glad to hear it, i hope people do this research sooner in future

I think you misinterpreted my post. I was advocating a stepped approach to a new career:
1. a bit of theory/practical training as a foot into plumbing,
2. self employment within your skillset (plumbling bathrooms etc) - stop there and be a plumber or
3. as you make contacts do the gas trainning and work towards your gas portfolio with your new found friends in the trade assessing you,
4. finally gas safe registered, get more demanding work.

So if thats not a practical approach for someone who cant get a traineee position what is?

The 6129 may have a poor reputation but surely it's just a part of the bigger training picture and just needs to be followed on by other moree specialised traing and poractical experience.

Secondly, it's not surprising that some get conned. The path to entry is frankly confusing. A multitude of training courses, many leading to unrecognised qualifications, the promotion of a lie that 6129 is all you need, forum members more intent on slagging off formal training as 'fast tracking and worthless' without accepting that formal training is a necessary part for new entrants and gas safe themselves who dont make it clear what they require. Slapping the wrist of companies who missell their training courses will prevent them from making unrealistic claims and conning others.

 

[fuzzy]

I think you misinterpreted my post. I was advocating a stepped approach to a new career:
1. a bit of theory/practical training as a foot into plumbing,
2. self employment within your skillset (plumbling bathrooms etc) - stop there and be a plumber or
3. as you make contacts do the gas trainning and work towards your gas portfolio with your new found friends in the trade assessing you,
4. finally gas safe registered, get more demanding work.

So if thats not a practical approach for someone who cant get a traineee position what is? That is a more realistic approach than you seemed to suggest before. I'm sure if followed it could lead to a competent engineer, however, several of the stages are very difficult and you should be aware of that. You have missed out the NVQ bits and you say 'gas port folio' not all places ask for a port folio, its a list of jobs that you have done and wrote down ie 'fitted boiler', 'fitted pipework' and then signed by a gas safe registered engineer who supervised all the work whilst it took place

The 6129 may have a poor reputation but surely it's just a part of the bigger training picture and just needs to be followed on by other moree specialised traing and poractical experience. No more specialied training needed to be a qualified plumber, just need to prove you can apply skills learnt on 6129 in a real working environment to obtain 6089

Secondly, it's not surprising that some get conned. The path to entry is frankly confusing. A multitude of training courses, many leading to unrecognised qualifications, the promotion of a lie that 6129 is all you need, forum members more intent on slagging off formal training as 'fast tracking and worthless' without accepting that formal training is a necessary part for new entrants and gas safe themselves who dont make it clear what they require. Slapping the wrist of companies who missell their training courses will prevent them from making unrealistic claims and conning others. The pathway is not confusing, in fact its very simple, some places may be at an advantage making you thing its confusing. if the courses are miss sold or people are being bluffed then that is not the fault of the system but of the people doing the bluffing. Do you really think wrist slapping will stop them?

 

[fuzzy]

Quote "forum members more intent on slagging off formal training as 'fast tracking and worthless' without accepting that formal training is a necessary part for new entrants"


There in lies the real problem, you think all responses are simply 'slagging off' I think this is very ignorant of the facts. Every qualified engineer recognises that formal training is a necessary part for new entrants, all apprentices do this, every time served engineer has gone through this process. Not all formal training is fast track, not all is worthless. Some are fast track and some are worthless, it depends what the formal training is.

People often say "what is more important, training/courses or experience"

Well, its both, an apprenticeship has the correct balance of training and experiences, one without the other is not worthless but limited, people need both elements to be deemed competent.

Not sure were you have your facts from previously but i feel you will benefit from some independent advice and guidance

 

[fuzzy]

I accept that this is just a layman's view but I base it on taking an interest in the local job market and never ever seeing any vacancies over the intervening period since a shortage was publicised. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

never saw any vacancies for what, plumbers or plumbing apprentices?

 

[Jim1]

Fast Track Training is not the greatest, but it is a starting point for people with the right mind set, it has never been or will ever make someone a professional plumber. It is a starting point of a very long learning curve that never stops because the trade will just keep evolving. People need to research what it is they actually want before parting with silly amounts of money, research costs nothing!!

 

[longers]

Exactly how I feel and the same position I find myself in!

 

[fuzzy]

what position is that longers

 

[longers]

I was commenting on someones message about training to become a plumber the best way you can/available to you. But my post is pages away from his comment, woops! I cant afford to go to college full time and have to work and train. I am going from being a company director to an apprentice. So I am aware of my limitations and I am honest enough to know when a job is beyond my skills. But I believe in making my own path and this is what I am doing

 

[fuzzy]

i wish you luck, if you know all the facts and have made an informed judgement i wish you all the best. I just hope you dont turn into one of those who start looking for excuses if you struggle

 

[longers]

I saw good feedback and bad about the schemes. It suits me although I am nervous about the jump in career and salary. I asked when I signed up about apprentice schemes and how the quick route compares and was kind of fobbed off. I knew that when I was at Taymech/Taylor Woodrow the apprentices did about 4 years and went to college. I understand 5 weeks practical wont get me the same understanding as them but I understand it from the engineers side so I kind of think that helps me a bit and I might not be as green as others doing the courses. But looking forward to finding out and I hope people start spending money on bathooms and new heating systems!! Thanks for you encouragement!

 

[Mheppolette]

I'm thinking of doing a gas engineer course and I was wondering what peoples opinion on this is? Im planning on going with a company called Access Training Academy, what are the chance of me getting a job after completing the course and being on the gas safe register?
Thanks

 

[Trotter31]

First thing to realise with the t4ts course is, upon completion of the 5 weeks practical, you will only be qualified to the level of Plumbers Mate.
You will need to do Site Training, (about 3 weeks, I believe) before becoming qualified to NVQ Level 2.
Site Training costs extra in most cases.
Something to look into before taking the plunge.

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Thinking of being a plumber or gas installer - read this Are dangerous plumbing and gas qualifications putting the public at risk? - Installer OnlineInstaller Online

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thinking of being a plumber or gas installer - read this Are dangerous plumbing and gas qualifications putting the public at risk? - Installer OnlineInstaller Online

Yes they are, as the people coming out arnt experienced