Oil boiler locking out due to air in oil pipe

[Best]

Wonder has anyone experienced this? An oil boiler I have just been to is locking out because of air in oil pump. The oil tank is 11 metres from boiler house, but the tank base is about 18" ( 450mm ) below level of boiler base. The tank has only enough oil to come to level of boiler base.
No tiger loop is fitted. I tried a new Danfoss pump & hose, but no different. No leaks are visible, but oil pipe is buried.
When I bleed pump, burner fires for a few min, then air enters it again. Is this possible without a leak near burner?
Newborn baby in house.

 

[chers]

Yeah have seen this a few times. Everything will work ok until the oil level in the tank reaches the same level as the burner as the oil supply is just working on gravity.As the oil cant flow uphill and the tanks is 11m away and 18" below the burner.
If you put a tiger loop on then problem will be sorted.

 

[Best]

Yeah have seen this a few times. Everything will work ok until the oil level in the tank reaches the same level as the burner as the oil supply is just working on gravity.As the oil cant flow uphill and the tanks is 11m away and 18" below the burner.
If you put a tiger loop on then problem will be sorted.

Thanks for reply. I have been considering fitting a tiger loop, which should have been fitted anyhow, but just wondering if the oil pipe has a leak in it, near the boiler. This is a " new " build about 12 years old, so the oil tank level must have been at that level & lower many times before, which makes me suspect a leak somewhere.
The oil pipe is bare 10mm copper which is corroded badly where it comes through boiler house cement floor, - it is typical poor work.
I am going to first try a temp plastic oil pipe on top of ground to prove if pipe was problem. I have seen jobs going for years, where the tank is much lower, & as long as people don't run out of oil & get air in line, it keeps going.

Will let you know outcome.

 

[Best]

Got it sorted an hour ago! It was what I suspected - a leak at the high point of the oil line near the boiler. It was the oil filter rubber seal letting in air. Filter bowl was very tight, & O ring wasn't too bad condition, but I changed complete filter.
Lesson to look out for, but hard to find as the oil level in tank at moment is below that level.
Have advised customer that tigerloop needed.

 

[Nostrum]

The oil pump is usually capable of lifting oil approx 1mtr, although technically it should have a tiger loop, there are lots around here that haven't and have run with no issues for years. You can't create air so like you found out, it had to come from somewhere!

Glad you got it sorted, air leaks are a chore sometimes aren't they, the pump will pull air through everytime, even when theres no head of pressure to show an oil leak as a clue!

 

[Best]

The oil pump is usually capable of lifting oil approx 1mtr, although technically it should have a tiger loop, there are lots around here that haven't and have run with no issues for years. You can't create air so like you found out, it had to come from somewhere!

Glad you got it sorted, air leaks are a chore sometimes aren't they, the pump will pull air through everytime, even when theres no head of pressure to show an oil leak as a clue!

Thanks sambotc, I knew the pumps were capable of lifting 3 or 4 feet no bother, & have seen some lifting higher, but I always keep tank base at oil pump level or more.
I tend to fit Tigerloops now, even if tank is high, as they make the boiler more efficient, as micro bubbles in oil are removed, so no nozzle drip & oil is slightly preheated due to friction of oil pump. Also, obviously, the tank can be in a lower more hidden level.
That oil filter had me puzzled, yet I knew air could be getting in there, but where do you start, - bar replacing everything? I refitted the old oil pump as it is ok, & saves the people money.

 

[Nostrum]

Good service, a lot of people would have fobbed the oil pump off as faulty even though it was fine, honesty's the best policy as they say and you'll no doubt use it up soon enough anyway. I see your in N.Ireland so oil must be your main trade? I've got family in Portstewart as it happens, all oil there as far as I can make out, do they have mains gas in Belfast and similar?

 

[Best]

Good service, a lot of people would have fobbed the oil pump off as faulty even though it was fine, honesty's the best policy as they say and you'll no doubt use it up soon enough anyway. I see your in N.Ireland so oil must be your main trade? I've got family in Portstewart as it happens, all oil there as far as I can make out, do they have mains gas in Belfast and similar?

Sometimes I wonder if honesty is best, as some people don't value it! :smile:
I didn't want to leave the new pump on as it is only a 5min job to redo, & only fair I do it properly. I only had it on test, to prove it wasnt the pump. They will need the cost of a t.loop later.
Yes, oil is still a big porportion of heating in N.Ireland but natural mains gas is in Belfast & just about any large housing area, but not obviously in a lot of country areas. Probably, like rest of UK, we have an over supply of gas qualified guys now here, so has got competitive.
Still a lot oil work, but every type of person is trying to do oil boiler servicing.
Portstewart & that region is a lovely place & I hope you have visited there?

 

[Nostrum]

Yeah been there throughout my life at various stages. It seems a bit over developed now, lots of new build and some areas look a bit run down with the recession, which from what I hear affected N Ireland a lot worse than England. Bigger boom, bigger bust I suppose which is a shame. Half finished developments and derelict buldings etc. Years ago I used to spend my summer holidays there with my cousins and it was a lot different.

Same here for the gas, seems like everyone wants to be a gas engineer, gas safe numbers running toward 600,000 now, my last personal Gas safe number was 204,000 odd and that was only 6 years ago so the uptake is unreal. We cover Devon and Cornwall for oil installs and service which is a slight advantage, but a lot of service work isn't cost effective to do because of travelling distance/time etc. I think renewable energy is the way i'm heading now which is more electrically based so change in direction again!

 

[Best]

There has been a lot of development here in N.Ireland, for many years, but I don't think there are much derelict half finished developments here, that I know. The half finished housing developments that are shown on tv, are in the Irish Republic, which seems in big problems. N.Ireland is small enough to have advantages in this recession. Pity the housing prices went from very reasonable, to very high, here & now they are back to sensible levels. The site work has become rare, but wont affect me. There's good customers out there always, but I think renewables are the way to go. Travelling long distances to small jobs is a big time loss, you would be better having local jobs at lower pay.

 

[WHPES]

Your best way if you can't find the leak is to use a pressure test pump.

A common source of the leaks is the old wheel head fire valve. Also be careful not to use oversize pipe. The pipe in the OPs situation should be no greater than 8mm diameter (see OFTEC manual for specifics)

 

[Nostrum]

Best; When I was over there last (sept 2011) there was still a few houses that had been bought up and falling to bits, looked like they were in for demolition but then when it all went bad they just sat there and rotted. Don't get me wrong its still a lovely place, just a shame to see place like that get creamed by developers then abandoned to some degree once the money was no longer there. Its got a nice charm to it.

One side of my family have all grown up from there, my dad grew up there and we have family roots from a very long time ago when it was a little fishing village.

WHPES Yep standard issue now 8mm, I've got a Bahco 10mm pipe slice which is ideal for cutting the coating off the pipe or you can actually cut the copper as well as long as the coating is on. We always use flared fitting as well, nothing else. Far fewer problems with micro leaks and air being drawn in, although I think its the quality of the compression fitting which cause the problems rather than the compression concept itself. A lot of my oil work was fitting external Heatslaves and Camrays for a company who seemed to have a bit of a liking for them, can't say I like Worcester at all, gas or oil, but then I never have done.

 

[WHPES]

Grant is my preferred boiler at the moment.

To everyone - ALWAYS use the pipe inserts for soft copper fuel lines! If you don't and the pipe gets knocked, it leaks really easily. Its easier for air to get in under suction than oil to get out under pressure.

Getting baffles for Camrays is a nightmare as Camray were taken over by Boulter taken over by Worcester. Worcester don't seem to want to know about Camray stuff. I get a;; Camray stuff made up by a local guy now.

 

[Nostrum]

^ Or use flared fittings :90:

we had serious issues with grant after service so we stopped using them for ages. They are definitely a better product, although the condense on some vortex models isn't very well thought out, left hand exit only if I remember and i'm not overly keen on the oil route when you've got a 2 pipe system, but that's maybe being picky!

 

[Best]

Your best way if you can't find the leak is to use a pressure test pump.

A common source of the leaks is the old wheel head fire valve. Also be careful not to use oversize pipe. The pipe in the OPs situation should be no greater than 8mm diameter (see OFTEC manual for specifics)

Thought that about the pipe size. I didn't do the work I hasten to add, - it is about 12 year old house & is on the face of it, a nice place, but to put an oil tank so low & bare copper oil line, with only oil filter on highest part - at boiler, it's a shame.
I will probably be fitting tiger loop, as people have agreed, but the oil line will cause a lot work.
I am careful not to do more than the minimum compression joints on soft copper oil lines. Agree they need inserts.
The plastic oil lines may be worth using, but they are not to be inside a building or near an oil boiler, as fire hazard, - just should be fitted ( sleeved, IMO ) from oil tank to remote fire valve outside building/boiler house.

 

[Nostrum]

Plastics for underground use only. Like you say fire risk

EDIT: see here >>>>>>>> http://www.oftec.org/documents/EG_dom_oil_feed_pipes_aw.pdf

 

[Best]

^ Or use flared fittings :90:

we had serious issues with grant after service so we stopped using them for ages. They are definitely a better product, although the condense on some vortex models isn't very well thought out, left hand exit only if I remember and i'm not overly keen on the oil route when you've got a 2 pipe system, but that's maybe being picky!

Grant make a well made shell generally. Their older boilers have been going for years.
I like the Vortex, 50/90 & upwards, but the plume seems very heavy & the burner is very tight to base, so oil hoses routes are a problem. Pity the Riello oil pumps are not better quality.

 

[Best]

Best; ?........ Don't get me wrong its still a lovely place, just a shame to see place like that get creamed by developers then abandoned to some degree once the money was no longer there. Its got a nice charm to it.

...... can't say I like Worcester at all, gas or oil, but then I never have done.

Not offended sambotc, just that when you describe derelict houses, it conjures an image that doesn't match most of the real place. Lol! :smile:

Worcester Bosch have sold std eff. boilers in NI, for the NI market for a lot years, ( as well as their other UK boilers ) & they have proved very reliable. They used Electro Oil burners which have been great.

 

[WHPES]

I don't find any more problems with Riello pumps than with Danfoss ones.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i fitted a worcester camray he late last year WHPES are these different to the camrays your talking about regards spares?

 

[Best]

I don't find any more problems with Riello pumps than with Danfoss ones.

There's a lot of oil boilers over here, & probably most have Riello burners. The Riello oil pumps have been breaking down a lot, to the extent that most engineers only fit Sterling burners if replacing one.
The Danfoss pumps surprise me if they don't last well over 10 years. The Riellos are unpredictable for reliability I feel.
I replaced a lot of them just over a year old & oil was clean & no water in it.

 

[chers]

Good to here you have it sussed.
Was,nt just a tiger loop required then.I havent had one take in air like that without an oil leek being aparent so good to know for the future.
Everydays a school day.

 

[Best]

Thanks chers, I thought it must be taking in air at high point of oil pipe, but everything looked ok, & I had renewed the oil hose. Just takes a micro leak to do it.
Wasted my time, but lucky I found it. Oil filter O ring must be a bit tired but wasn't cracked.
It still could do with the tigerloop fitted later, as you said.

 

[Nostrum]

There's a lot of oil boilers over here, & probably most have Riello burners. The Riello oil pumps have been breaking down a lot, to the extent that most engineers only fit Sterling burners if replacing one.
The Danfoss pumps surprise me if they don't last well over 10 years. The Riellos are unpredictable for reliability I feel.
I replaced a lot of them just over a year old & oil was clean & no water in it.

Can't say i've seen a difference between the 2 either to be fair, but i'm not discounting it from being the truth.

I think fuel additives may play a part in failure, I remember hearing the bio fuels and mixtures were causing premature failure due to viscosity being different to what the pumps were manufactured for under test conditions, maybe that was referencing the riello pump.