you don't have to test with air no one can force you just don't but your desire to prove the rgi wrong does you no credit he is probably talking about gas pipes which he would test with air your thread seems to change then to water which again can be air tested you then move on to oxygen which you cant use because it would create a potential bomb
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View the thread, titled "Pressure Test" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
K
Kimou
Ok, I must've mixed something up then. Maybe he was referring to that and I got lost somewhere and confused the two.
T
tamz
There is a very real danger of injury or even god forbid, death in testing with air at higher pressures.
That is why a risk assessment and method statement should be prepared and strictly adhered to including setting up exclusion zones.
If these steps were not taken and documented and something were to happen then yes you would be liable.
That is why a risk assessment and method statement should be prepared and strictly adhered to including setting up exclusion zones.
If these steps were not taken and documented and something were to happen then yes you would be liable.
K
Kimou
Billy bob- the rgi told me about his practise of putting a compressor on to test for leak before he filled with water. My desire is not to prove him wrong, moreover, to educate him. I clearly believed he was unknowingly creating a huge danger for himself and others around. The potential could even be kids living next door. What would you do if you honestly believed someone was putting themselves in a life threatening situation and never realised?
would you consider yourself trying to be a knowitall or genuinely helping that person?
Which is why I'm taking the time and suffering abuse to try and get some advice from people much more informed and experienced than I am.
it does seem that if I never mentioned that he was RGI I doubt I'd have such a hard time. Not all gas installers know everything.
would you consider yourself trying to be a knowitall or genuinely helping that person?
Which is why I'm taking the time and suffering abuse to try and get some advice from people much more informed and experienced than I am.
it does seem that if I never mentioned that he was RGI I doubt I'd have such a hard time. Not all gas installers know everything.
K
Kimou
Tamz- Again, thanks. Your input is appreciated. He was talking about 8bar on dry and still insists its ok. Even Gas safe didn't correct him. I only have his say so that they said that, but if its true, then that's worrying.
K
Kimou
Very true. Nice analogy.
K
Kimou
Tamz- is there any document that states this. If it is a code of practice surely something is available? I really want to change this guy's way of testing. I'd hate for something bad to happen.
K
Kimou
that's the problem when you don't regulate our industry properly and force companies to cut corners. It's bad times ahead and will probably get worse.
K
Kimou
Yeah. Not always 8bar but any pressure. In his mind it's not a consideration. 8 was just an example of roughly what he does.
K
Kimou
No not gas. Pipes for rads and water runs.
T
tamz
Testing at 8 bar could be very dangerous. If anything were to happen it would be his rse in a sling. No one including him, should be nearer than 3m to any pipe under test at 8 bar
Here is an excerpt from a certain book on how to test with air (i've taken some parts not relevant out). The same risks apply to any pipe tho.
PROCEDURES – PNEUMATIC STRENGTH TESTING
A thorough survey of the pipework section, to detect any major integrity defect, shall be carried out before testing, including inspection of certificates, NDT, etc.
Note: This survey may entail checking the accuracy of any plans, any other information provided and the mechanical integrity of installations.
As far as is reasonably practicable, joints should be exposed during the strength test and indications of leakage sought using leak detection fluid (LDF), but only after the pressure has been reduced to MOP for the section.
It shall be ensured that all pipework and components have been designed, installed and anchored to withstand STP.
A risk analysis shall be carried out to confirm that the risk involved is acceptable. If it is not, then hydrostatic testing shall be carried out.
Before testing, the following actions shall be taken:
• ensure all isolation valves are plugged securely or blanked off and the valves are in the open position to ensure the valve body is tested
• where necessary, remove any component that is not to be included in the test (see clause 4.4.1). Install spool pieces or blanks
• ensure there is a means of pressurising the system either with dry compressed air or nitrogen (above freezing point if expanded from bottled nitrogen)
• incorporate (in the connection of the pressurisation medium to the section) suitably adjusted regulators and a full flow safety valve(s) to prevent pressurisation above STP.
An exclusion zone, in accordance with Table 2, shall be set up around the area of any pipework section for which STP exceeds 1 bar. The minimum distance for persons to be from the pipework is based on STP and the volume of the section being tested. Personnel shall not be within this distance of the section while pressurising and during the stabilization and test periods.
Note: In general, this will mean that the pressurisation equipment and test instruments are also outside this area, the latter being piped into the area in small bore pipework. The distances detailed in Table 2 are based on the centre-line of the pipework and extend both sides.
A final inspection of the pipework section shall be carried out to ensure that it is ready for the test (it shall be ensured that any exclusion zone is clear of all personnel - see Table 2).
If STP exceeds 2 bar, a check for general integrity, for example for open ends, shall be carried out at a pressure of 350 mbar.
The pipework section shall be pressurised slowly. If STP exceeds 2 bar then, after reaching 2 bar, the section pressure shall be increased in 10% stages up to STP leaving a short period between each increase in pressure.
Following a satisfactory test the pressure in the pipework section shall be vented and pipework left in a safe condition. Any exclusion zone then can be re-opened for all site personnel.
The strength test shall be documented and included in any site Health and Safety File. Results should be recorded on a formal certificate, a copy of which should be given to the owner/operator of the pipework tested.
STP and MOP shall be recorded clearly and be available for reference by any party subsequently working on the installation.
Here is an excerpt from a certain book on how to test with air (i've taken some parts not relevant out). The same risks apply to any pipe tho.
PROCEDURES – PNEUMATIC STRENGTH TESTING
A thorough survey of the pipework section, to detect any major integrity defect, shall be carried out before testing, including inspection of certificates, NDT, etc.
Note: This survey may entail checking the accuracy of any plans, any other information provided and the mechanical integrity of installations.
As far as is reasonably practicable, joints should be exposed during the strength test and indications of leakage sought using leak detection fluid (LDF), but only after the pressure has been reduced to MOP for the section.
It shall be ensured that all pipework and components have been designed, installed and anchored to withstand STP.
A risk analysis shall be carried out to confirm that the risk involved is acceptable. If it is not, then hydrostatic testing shall be carried out.
Before testing, the following actions shall be taken:
• ensure all isolation valves are plugged securely or blanked off and the valves are in the open position to ensure the valve body is tested
• where necessary, remove any component that is not to be included in the test (see clause 4.4.1). Install spool pieces or blanks
• ensure there is a means of pressurising the system either with dry compressed air or nitrogen (above freezing point if expanded from bottled nitrogen)
• incorporate (in the connection of the pressurisation medium to the section) suitably adjusted regulators and a full flow safety valve(s) to prevent pressurisation above STP.
An exclusion zone, in accordance with Table 2, shall be set up around the area of any pipework section for which STP exceeds 1 bar. The minimum distance for persons to be from the pipework is based on STP and the volume of the section being tested. Personnel shall not be within this distance of the section while pressurising and during the stabilization and test periods.
Note: In general, this will mean that the pressurisation equipment and test instruments are also outside this area, the latter being piped into the area in small bore pipework. The distances detailed in Table 2 are based on the centre-line of the pipework and extend both sides.
A final inspection of the pipework section shall be carried out to ensure that it is ready for the test (it shall be ensured that any exclusion zone is clear of all personnel - see Table 2).
If STP exceeds 2 bar, a check for general integrity, for example for open ends, shall be carried out at a pressure of 350 mbar.
The pipework section shall be pressurised slowly. If STP exceeds 2 bar then, after reaching 2 bar, the section pressure shall be increased in 10% stages up to STP leaving a short period between each increase in pressure.
Following a satisfactory test the pressure in the pipework section shall be vented and pipework left in a safe condition. Any exclusion zone then can be re-opened for all site personnel.
The strength test shall be documented and included in any site Health and Safety File. Results should be recorded on a formal certificate, a copy of which should be given to the owner/operator of the pipework tested.
STP and MOP shall be recorded clearly and be available for reference by any party subsequently working on the installation.
K
Kimou
On all other issues he's spot on and knows his stuff. It's probably more common than people think that people aren't aware of this danger. I mean, testing a system for leak without risk of flooding. What could be better than that?
The only pipework to be tested with high pressure compressed air in my view should compressed air lines. Therefore testing of any other pipelines using this method and injury or fatality occurring would mean the party performing this activity would face the full force of the law. Whatever method statements or risk assessments he or she put in place.
I would agree completely you should avoid compressing air too much in a domestic situation as it has too much stored energy which it can release instantly I think you still want to be right no matter how this thread twists and turns he now pressurises to 8 bar whatever next
T
tamz
Have a read of this which also points to further documents for guidance
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/gs4.pdf
K
Kimou
Tamz- That's perfect. I'm gonna print it out and give it to him. If you ever run for prime minister, you got my vote.
K
Kimou
Of course I want to be right. Who wants to be wrong? I was taught this so I know it to be true. You're judging my motives incorrectly, though that judgement may be by your own standards.
G
Gray0689
Lol I must of left a lot of exploding houses in my time lol
I pressure test new builds in air in winter and water in summer for obvious reasons
Copper and air exploding lol what about the air around all copper pipework lol
T
tamz
10% tax rate under 50k 75% over 150k
Bankers shot on sight until they clean up their act
No council tax or infact any other tax for pensioners
Benefits stopped and soup kitchens for those on the buroo for more than a year
Free beer and whisky for anyone over 6ft if they are working
I don't think i would get many votes :lol:
K
Kimou
Brilliant. Cheers Tamz. Thanks for the help everyone. That's all I need. Hopefully we can put this to bed now and no hard feelings. It's been interesting.
K
Kimou
Where do I make my mark? Sounds about right to me.
O
on31ll
When we test pipework its 5 bar that was stated we had to test to before testing with water on the last job ! I know that sprinkler lads pressure test to 15 bar on everyjob before filling with water !
i,d love to be there when you rush up to him and squeal im right lok ive got a piece of paper to prove it could you take a photo
O
on31ll
Thats with no exclusion zone with a fully operational site !
read the piece of paper first the risk posed will be the volume x the pressure you need to understand the risk to manage it
V
Veggie Dave
Have I missed something in this thread? :confused5:
Because it would appear that someone needs to have a chat with City and Guilds if pressure testing pipework is so dangerous as to not be worth doing - especially as it's a specific requirement in their exams if the pupil wants to pass.
A direct quote from the C&G exam requirements: Work to be capped where appropriate and pressure tested to 3 bar for three minutes.
Better have a chat with WRAS, too, as the Water Regulations specifically demand the system is tested at '1.5 times the maximum operating pressure for the installation' Water Regulations Guide (Section 4: Guidance clauses G12.1 – 12.3)
Because it would appear that someone needs to have a chat with City and Guilds if pressure testing pipework is so dangerous as to not be worth doing - especially as it's a specific requirement in their exams if the pupil wants to pass.
A direct quote from the C&G exam requirements: Work to be capped where appropriate and pressure tested to 3 bar for three minutes.
Better have a chat with WRAS, too, as the Water Regulations specifically demand the system is tested at '1.5 times the maximum operating pressure for the installation' Water Regulations Guide (Section 4: Guidance clauses G12.1 – 12.3)
Doesn't make it right, if god forbid an accident did happen then the poo would truly hit the fan.
V
vern
What a load of absolute ************* this thread is I only read it all in case Keefy had some more pics.......
Someone better get the British standards updated....IGE/UP/1......IGE/UP/1A.......Etc
Someone better get the British standards updated....IGE/UP/1......IGE/UP/1A.......Etc
you can make a risk assessment the guy will use a single phase compressor 3kw probably for a fixed amount of time to achieve a level of compression in a system of known volume so you know how much energy it contains and you know what the possible risk are eg children close by so you know how to manage the risk i would lower the pressure to 1/2 bar which would show leaks but in my view isn't a riskisn't a risk
O
on31ll
No it doesnt make it right in the way its carried out but alot of centres want air test first and a in house cert for that ! They have surveyors and lawyers and that to check all that out first hand and then tell us they want it !
O
on31ll
I could write an risk assesment for going on this forum ! Its a joke !
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