Cold Radiators

[lucolivia]

Hi
I hope you can help! We had a Vaillant EcoTec plus 630 installed just over two years ago. We've recently extended the house and added 5 new radiators, some small and some larger and the total is now 15 radiators. There are two that refuse to warm up and most of the others are warmer at the top than the bottom. Our plumber has apparently balanced the system but he's running out of ideas!
Can you help please?
Thanks 😉

 

[Derek Hardman]

Incorrect pipe sizing/extending pipework from other radiators rather than the main feed?

 

[kay-jay]

could be a number of things.

did the system work properly prior to the extension? if so then its probably an airlock or the way the new rads have been piped off the original circuit.

try shutting off all the rads that are working, this will make the circuit shorter and help push the heat to the problem rads.
try this first then report back

 

[happyflyer]

Need a drawing of the system and the diameters of the pipe work, was the plumber a push fit plastic man or a copper pipe man?

 

[lame plumber]

is he a qualified plumber or a jobbing builder?

 

[Richie_77]

do you have a micro bore system

 

[on31ll]

Need a drawing of the system and the diameters of the pipe work, was the plumber a push fit plastic man or a copper pipe man?

Same job can be done in either plastic or copper. And if your reffering to the skills of the plumber by the fact of if he uses plastic or copper then i think thats very silly ! I use copper all the time but sometimes there is a time for plastic ! Doesnt mean im any less of a plumber !

 

[happyflyer]

I wasn't getting at skills at all,l I was asking for other reasons, if the plumber had used plastic there is far more chance in the UK that the pipe sizes will be <= to
15 mm, if that was the case then the pressure drop would be much higher and index circuit may have shifted somewhat, therefore less chance of the correct amount of water being available for the new rads and even some of the old ones. I am new on this forum but certainly not new to plumbing, there appears to be a lot of none trade joining to ask questions about their problems. I asked for a drawing with pipe sizes, if I had that I could tell him what was wrong in 10 mins, I am still waiting. Until we get that drawing, we are all guessing, on the other hand IMO any plumber who walks away from a job he has done says he's balanced it and rads are not getting warm, well you make up your own mind, bet you wouldn't do that, I will make my mind up about the integrity of plumber when I have the drawings, that should take no more than 11 mins.

Hope this clear it up on31ll

 

[hammers4spanner]

Doubt you will get any drawings of serious note , i would think they have probably tee'd off from 15mm part circuit and not taken it back to where the 22mm is .That would be mny first thought however it could be anything imho .

 

[happyflyer]

Doubt you will get any drawings of serious note , i would think they have probably tee'd off from 15mm part circuit and not taken it back to where the 22mm is .That would be mny first thought however it could be anything imho .

hammers4spanner

You are probably right, but if people want help, half a story is worse than none at all and maybe this chap can't do a drawing of the pipework in which case he's goosed.
Adding 5 rads onto a 10 rad system you may need to go back as close to the boiler as possible.

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

Hi
I hope you can help! We had a Vaillant EcoTec plus 630 installed just over two years ago. We've recently extended the house and added 5 new radiators, some small and some larger and the total is now 15 radiators. There are two that refuse to warm up and most of the others are warmer at the top than the bottom. Our plumber has apparently balanced the system but he's running out of ideas!
Can you help please?
Thanks 😉

Take kay-jay's advice and report back please..😉

 

[SafeGasInstall]

why not call the person who fitted it back to sort it out ?

why the person who fitted it did not make sure they all are working before go home ?

why did you pay for work not done 100 % ?

 

[lucolivia]

Incorrect pipe sizing/extending pipework from other radiators rather than the main feed?

Apologies for the delay...Computer problems!
Thank you Derek.... I am writing down all your kind comments and will speak to the plumber on Thursday.. Apparently he's been told by Vaillant that the boiler isn't powerful enough! ;((

 

[lucolivia]

Yes, it did work Kay Jay...Thank you

 

[lucolivia]

Thanks happyflyer I will ask the plumber for a drawing and report back...

 

[lucolivia]

qualified plumber 😉

 

[lucolivia]

Sorry Richie I'm not sure I understand .... ;(

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you!

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you again Happyflyer! I'll be in touch when I've asked some questions... 🙂

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you for your help...😉

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you Galaxy plumbing! I will 😉

 

[lucolivia]

I am safegasinstall...No he left leaving the rads cold...No there's some money outstanding but not very much..;((

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you!

 

[happyflyer]

Apologies for the delay...Computer problems!
Thank you Derek.... I am writing down all your kind comments and will speak to the plumber on Thursday.. Apparently he's been told by Vaillant that the boiler isn't powerful enough! ;((

I don't believe a word of it, how has he and them worked that one out, unless all the 15 rads are 3kws each, I doubt it

 

[SafeGasInstall]

This saound like
- unbalanced system or
- air lock or
- not correct pipe size

but I am sure by re balancing the system it should work !

 

[happyflyer]

This saound like
- unbalanced system or
- air lock or
- not correct pipe size

but I am sure by re balancing the system it should work !

I think you are right, plumber from hell, maybe??? :bandana: bandeedo

 

[lucolivia]

Doing that this eve Kay Jay... thanks again

 

[SimonG]

Once you've shut down all the old rads that will indicate your problem. But I would put my money on the fact your extension has been piped from too small of a pipe to meet the heat demands.

 

[happyflyer]

Once you've shut down all the old rads that will indicate your problem. But I would put my money on the fact your extension has been piped from too small of a pipe to meet the heat demands.

Me thinks so too, this is going to be a long night :chillpill:

 

[lucolivia]

Hi again
Thank you everyone...I have an update. I turned off all the radiators apart from the troublesome ones..One radiator is warm, not hot whereas the other isn't but the pipes going to it are warm! Sadly not the radiator itself..

 

[SimonG]

Pipeworks too small. Needs repiping back to larger diameter pipework.

 

[lucolivia]

Money outstanding! 😉

 

[SimonG]

You need to give the guy a chance to sort it himself. But def sounds like it's piped incorrectly. If he refuses then you have grounds to inform him that you will get somebody else in to sort the issue and use the outstanding funds to pay for the works. Also that if the works cost more than the what's left he'll have to pay.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Are thevalves fully open ? Also is te top of the getting worm Orr the bottom ?

 

[lucolivia]

Hi
Just the pipes that come up out of the wall and go into the radiator are warm...The radiator itself is cold ;((

 

[lucolivia]

I think that the valve is open...

 

[SafeGasInstall]

What about the valve on the other side ? It does not matter how bad the system is paiped , rads WILL get hot if all the others are turned off !!!
You need to check the other valve an also let air out + I am sure you have not turn all the others off , pls double check all rads are cold + please check boiler thermostat that is set at min 65 ! If not sure pls stop playing with it and get a plumber in to sort it should be easy to fault find it

 

[lucolivia]

My response was "I think" because the plumber said that the lockshield valve was open. All other rads are cold..We've checked for air.Thanks for your help. I will speak to the plumber

 

[lucolivia]

Finally the radiator is luke warm. The heating has been on for four hours and all other rads were turned off for the duration

 

[SafeGasInstall]

What is temperature set at boiler ? It could be problem with boiler tbh if temperature is set at 60 and rad is not getting hot or there is a blockage or the rev is faulty ! Please remove head of trv valve

 

[happyflyer]

I said it was going to be a long night:rolleyes2: round and round and round, you need to get someone else to look at it and send the plumber from hell the bill:bandana: there's more guessing going on here than University Challenge or more like a game of tennis, if you live round the corner I would come round and sort it. Where do you live ????

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you happyflyer....I live in Cheshire

 

[lucolivia]

I'll have a look at the temp when the kids are in bed! Thank you!

 

[happyflyer]

Thank you happyflyer....I live in Cheshire

Well why didn't you say before, where in Cheshire I live on the border Nr Stockport wow things are looking up

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Go and sort it out could be just simple faulty trv

 

[happyflyer]

Go and sort it out could be just simple faulty trv

Still waiting for the area Cheshire is a big place

 

[happyflyer]

Go and sort it out could be just simple faulty trv

Bet he lives next door to Rooney, will be a big house, boiler too small, Doh!

 

[lucolivia]

In Hale....

 

[lucolivia]

I wish! 😉)

 

[lucolivia]

Sorry what's a trv?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Bet he lives next door to Rooney, will be a big house, boiler too small, Doh!

No chance as boiler is 30kw and ch has 15 rads

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Just employ the fellow member to sort it out for you ! It will not cost you that much and will alow you to get on with your day to day duties

 

[Howsie]

Change your plumber!

 

[lucolivia]

The temp on the boiler seems to be fluctuating between 66 and 80...

 

[happyflyer]

In Hale....

I am working in Salford University tomorrow are you in at home, Hale is dead posh guys, I will need a passport and change mi money

 

[lucolivia]

Ha ha ha ....I work in Leeds Wed, Thurs, Fri. Is next week convenient? Thanks Jules 😉)

 

[happyflyer]

Ha ha ha ....I work in Leeds Wed, Thurs, Fri. Is next week convenient? Thanks Jules 😉)

Yes no problem, I need to go to Mobberly next week, just leave it know and I will Pm my phone number

Tony

 

[lucolivia]

Thanks Tony...

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Update is a must on this thread please

 

[lucolivia]

I plucked up the courage and spoke to the plumber this morning. I felt as though I knew a bit more to ask the right questions than I did before all everyones great advice on this forum. He is sticking to his guns and telling me that the boiler is under powered. He said that you lose 20% and that the approx output of the 15 radiators is 100btu (?!!) I'm not sure how I could work out the demand from the radiators...
There is some 22mm pipe upstairs but then it goes down to 15mm downstairs. He says that it's not standard practise to use 22mm everywhere and that he would even struggle to get the connections.. He also mentioned that he could fit a pump and that might help. He's also saying that he won't be responsible for an underpowered boiler as that was fitted by someone ele but at no stage did he say that the boiler is underpowered until now...
Thanks very much and any further help would be appreciated... Tony is hoping to come next week

 

[SimonG]

Boiler underpowered is rubbish and is one of the first things I check when installing additional rads. Your response to this should have been to say that you had turned all the other rads off so it was only running the additional ones. Good luck for next week.

 

[lucolivia]

Thanks SimonG...

 

[happyflyer]

No plumber worth his salt add radiators to a system that would render the boiler under size, there is no more to be said, I will be there next week to have a look Jules


Tony the Terrible :20:

 

[SimonG]

No plumber worth his salt would fit extra rads and leave them not working imho

 

[Ollieg]

100000 Btu is 29KW. So by his own admission and dodgy calculation the boiler is more than ok.
:hurray:

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you so much for all your help Tony!!! You're brilliant!!!

 

[PlumbBobBob]

Thank you so much for all your help Tony!!! You're brilliant!!!

don't tell him that his head will explode lol

 

[lucolivia]

...I think I already have...oh dear...:hurray:

 

[PriestyUK]

Bet his come off a return from a rad which he thought was a flow (Some people think that because it has a TRV on it its going to be a flow, which is not always the case) , and tied what he thought was a return into a return to pick up for his new circuit (If you get the jist) wont work unless the rad his come off is working/trv open etc. I've seen that before with people not knowing what their doing. Its a proper head scratcher when you come up against it as you eyes miss it the first few times because your mind and skill tells you No he wouldnt of done that. My picture I drew up quickly might make it clearer.

 

[lucolivia]

Thank you for the drawing.... If we turn off all the other radiators after an hour or so the temperamental rad becomes barely luke warm...would your suggestion still apply? 😉

 

[PriestyUK]

Yes as a TRV may still pass when screwed right down. Without having a 2nd beady eye on what this guy has done you may never know as he could just keep trying to pull the wool over your eyes 🙁

 

[happyflyer]

Me thinks it's not that daft, there are 5 rads not getting hot, that means he's done it five times, he would then be the real plumber from hell, too much speculation going on an not enough facts, I will sort it out next week chaps and I will report back, it will not be just one thing wrong. leave this one alone now and I will be back.

Tony

 

[Riley]

Sorry just getting in on this coz I love a mystery

 

[happyflyer]

Sorry just getting in on this coz I love a mystery

What do you think it might be Riley???? we could have a met,:21: throw a party :cake: play cluedo :beatnik: or simply have a cuppa:coffee: I will let you know don't worry.

Tony

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Tee goes with chocolate biscuits

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Make sure there is not a uncontrolled by pass

 

[happyflyer]

Make sure there is not a uncontrolled by pass

SafeGasInstaller,

I have a bit of kit that sits on the pipe and measure the flow inside, I will spot the uncontrolled or controlled bypass in a flash, I don't want to worry about me either, I have been in the trade for the 55 years and as long as the Good Lord doesn't take me in my sleep before I go to site next week, I will sort the plumber from hell out, be assured, trust me I am a real plumber!!!:35:

BTW I have heard they are going to officially make plumbing a trade next week :lol:

Anyway do any of you know when plastic tube was first used for minibore central heating???

 

[tommydiehard]

SafeGasInstaller,

I have a bit of kit that sits on the pipe and measure the flow inside, I will spot the uncontrolled or controlled bypass in a flash, I don't want to worry about me either, I have been in the trade for the 55 years and as long as the Good Lord doesn't take me in my sleep before I go to site next week, I will sort the plumber from hell out, be assured, trust me I am a real plumber!!!:35:

BTW I have heard they are going to officially make plumbing a trade next week :lol:

Anyway do any of you know when plastic tube was first used for minibore central heating???

Jesus this is like a plumbers version of Eastenders... Loving it

Have you been back yet Happyflyer? If not when?

Just to chuck my 2 pennies piece. When that plumber left did he jump in a van or ride off into the sunset!!!!

 

[happyflyer]

Tommy


Me as done, put the old trusty test kit on and found the water flow was too low, lots of other things need to be put right boiler in the roof space, with two zone valves pipe to valves go up higher than boiler so boiler is not the highest part of the system so auto air vent in boiler not much use, got plumber back, programmed boiler to run pump at full speed, twas only running at half, closed down ABV and got water flow up to boiler recommended rate, all rads now (WOW) get hot except on on new index circuit, balancing now tight, main F/R in roof space rises up to where it drops down to Ist floor needs 2 AAV and pipe cutting shorter, needs two AAV on boiler end zone valve branches, you need to remember that the Valliant like others don't have a big pump on 20 Kpa this is not very much for long runs of 15 mm tube, If I was fitting a boiler which feeds heating and a Magaflow I would use a basic boiler without pump, you can then change the pump if you drop a clanger.

Tony

PS the plumber who did the job now calls me Dad and I will take him under my wing from now on, why because he listened, the day you stop learning is the day you die and that includes me.

Rock on Tommy

 

[tommydiehard]

Fair play to him for not getting his back up.

I'm impressed too.

Whats the test kit? Sounds like a nice toy to play with.

I've never thought about fitting a boiler with out a pump. Every day is a school day and I've just learnt something.

 

[happyflyer]

Rock on Tommy £2500.00 Portaflow a bit more now had it 4 years

 

[happyflyer]

Fair play to him for not getting his back up.

I'm impressed too.

Whats the test kit? Sounds like a nice toy to play with.

I've never thought about fitting a boiler with out a pump. Every day is a school day and I've just learnt something.

Tommy,

I didn't go well for about 15 mins he thought he new it all, after he saw the kit I had he saw the folly of his ways, seriously he
was a nice young chap would I would help any time, he took my card and said if I need any help can I call you, what do you think I said.

Help some when you can I might need it one day.

 

[tommydiehard]

That is a niiiice bit of kit.
Do you do a lot of fault finding?
Bit to rich for little old me at he moment

 

[tommydiehard]

Hardest thing to do, to admitting to dropping a clanger. Especially when your a Plumber!!!!1

 

[happyflyer]

I spend all my time now witnessing other people commissioning water and ventilation systems, I write software for Building Management system BMS, controlling commercial HVAC, I use to be in combustion also for 10 year, Hamworthy, British Gas and Oil Burners,(BGOB) or Selectos as it was know, I have worked on burners with 15 ft flames, mainly potato crisp machine they need lots of power to heat up the fat. I worked on the very first premixed gas burner, you use them every day in domestic boiler, I was part of that design when I was 30 I am nearly 70

 

[lucolivia]

Hi again
Tony has been wonderful!! We can't thank him enough...
When I arrived home from work this evening.......All the radiators were hot!!! A miracle!
Tony....It's too hot now! ha ha ha...
:waving::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile:

 

[lucolivia]

It's very clever indeed...I learned a lot yesterday...I'm thinking of becoming Tony's apprentice!
Tony is an inspiration!

 

[lucolivia]

Absolutely. He was very grateful! :cheesy:

 

[JuliusG]

Just a thought how are the rads pipe BBOE or TBOE. If they are TBOE then they could be piped back to front. causing only the top to heat.

 

[happyflyer]

Just a thought how are the rads pipe BBOE or TBOE. If they are TBOE then they could be piped back to front. causing only the top to heat.

julesG,

No one these days pipes a radiators TBOE, do you know why, well it would be 750 mm of 15 mm tube for each rad and that would need do, anyway for what reason would any one want pipe TBOE, that is remnants of the old one pipe system, long forgotten here

 

[happyflyer]

It's very clever indeed...I learned a lot yesterday...I'm thinking of becoming Tony's apprentice!
Tony is an inspiration!

Thanks Jules,


Just another day at the office, I can't imaging helping anyone better, hope you have happier times ahead now the heating sorted.


Tony

 

[doitmyself]

For what reason would any one want pipe TBOE, that is remnants of the old one pipe system, long forgotten here

Except by the guys who wrote BS EN442 for measuring the output of rads, who specify TBSE when measuring! There's only about 2% difference between the three connection methods and TBSE is the best.

 

[JuliusG]

Happy flyer,
I'm was just making suggestions. I'm sorry but I disagree, TBOE is still the most efficient way to pipe a radiator regardless of whether it's a one pipe system or not. As it gives a better spread of heat across the radiator. Perhaps not seen in most modern homes but in industrial and commercial buildings are still occasionally piped this way. I piped radiators in college that way and I've worked in modern buildings piped that way. If you can increase heat output with piping arrangement, perhaps you can reduce heat emitter size?

 

[Killy Bing]

Except by the guys who wrote BS EN442 for measuring the output of rads, who specify TBSE when measuring! There's only about 2% difference between the three connection methods and TBSE is the best.

Isnt it tboe? Tbse causes the heat to run down one side and not circulate within the rad.
tboe causes it to run across

 

[JuliusG]

I agree with you 1King55, I was always told that TBOE had the highest efficiency, I would say that TBSE would have the least of the three.

 

[happyflyer]

You chaps are right experiments show that there is approx 2% better output if you don't use BBOE, but pray tell who does have a pipe running up the side of a radiator to the valve, another point if you do this and add a thermostatic valve the heat convected up from the stand pipe will prematurely shut down the valve, see if you can find a glossy rad brochure with TBOE connections.

Tony

 

[JuliusG]

Incorrect happy flyer, you fit the thermostatic radiator valve horizontally for exactly that reason. The phial in the valve hangs clear of the pipe and so isn't tricked by the heat from the pipe. If you were to fit the valve vertically you would be correct (which is a common mistake). As to whole has a pipe up the side of their radiator, the answer to that would be people looking to get max efficiency out of their radiators.

 

[JuliusG]

http://www.stelrad.com/uk/docs/elite_technical_info.pdf


Page marked 30 right, hand side, third paragraph down

 

[Killy Bing]

Ive done the rads in my parents house tboe. For one its more efficiant and also easier to get the rad off.

 

[happyflyer]

They are talking commercial, and you are right and forgot to add if you fit the TRV with the head horizontally you will negate the convention current up the pipe, another alternative is to use a remote capillary, but all this costly and messy, and they can get damage easily, commercially we tend to have a single zone valve controlled by a BMS and a room sensor, usually with a 3 Deg C adjust band 1.5 up and 1.5 down from agreed set points.

Owning and operating commercial HVAC system is expensive and maintenance must be taken into consideration too, in a school there is now a tenancy not to install radiators with TRV, they get damaged and messed with, UFH is pride of place no one can fiddle and even quality bespoke dwellings do use radiators.

I have designed 6 bespoke house in the past 10 years and not one radiator anywhere, the spec building will take some time to catch up but I think they will.

We have in recent years seen power sockets lift up higher, you could put the rad valve TBOE so people don't need to bend down, I have electronic rad valves on my system, don't need to bend down, once they are set you never need to adjust them again, extremely accurate temp control, they even make wireless TRV and the World moves on, as for 2% extra output using TBOE we will need the tweak the ABV or use the next size boiler up one. :bigcry:

Tony