unvented discharge pipe

[eddiebrown424]

Hi Guys,

Couple of quik questions.

Went to look at an unvented cylinder today that is about 20 yers old.

discharge pipe terminates in the airing cupboard onto the floor. As it is an old peoples place and in a communal area (laundry) I would like to re route it. There is no way I can get this outside it is to far to maiintain fall. However there is an internal drain around 3 meteres away. I readthat the discharge pipe can terminate here as the tundish will suffice in showing there is a problem.

is this right?

I realise that there may be an issue with smells but also read that a HEPVO trap can be used to stop this. I know plastic UPVC pipe can be used to carry the disharge are these facts right.

Thanks

eddie

 

[AWheating]

Speak to local building control, you must be certain the waste system can take the temps. read part g of the regs, it tells you most of what you need to know.

 

[Centralheatking]

Dead right get the La to specify and you carry out the work to their spec.

It could be a good profitable job if you handle it properly - right upmy street CHK

t iQUOTE=AWheating;668297]Speak to local building control, you must be certain the waste system can take the temps. read part g of the regs, it tells you most of what you need to know.[/QUOTE]

 

[eddiebrown424]

Thnks guys

 

[eddiebrown424]

last bit..... if i used plastic or copper under screed what depth does it need to go.... is this still up to the building control it seems to be quite a big job.....

Eddie

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Eddie
Please don't take this the wrong way but you have got your Part G & if so have you done the update since the changes in 2010 ?

The only plastic that can be used is the push fit stuff both types of solvent weld (uPVC & ABS) are not allowed.

Is the gully trapped ? is so, are you going to discharge the waste above the water line, again if so you will not need to trap it again.

You are right about the tun dish being the only OK as the only visible point to see discharge solong as it is positioned so it can be seen with easy.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi Chris,

Didn't take it the wrong way mate. I was sent to the job blind and am trying to send quality report in my boss has g3 training. The drain is a man hole (sorry ermintrude a person hole maybe) so was going to advise punchig through if allowed by building regs and putting a trap on below the tundish. Guess copper would be a better option rather than barrier pipe as it burried and would need a couple of fittings. I am not going to do anything illegal nd appreciate the concern.

Eddie

 

[chris watkins]

Not barrier pipe (you can use this if to class S) but push fit waste pipe like they sell at B&Poo cos it is made from polypropylene & will take the heat.
Busting into MH's (Part H) as others have said you will need to speak to BC.

 

[Ermintrude]

It's an inspection chamber. Or a man hole . But you can't just discharge into a man entry . Needs to be internal or external backdrop.

 

[Best]

Seems strange your boss has the G3 qualification but sends you to make out a report - surely all you can do is survey the whole thing in detail, ideally perhaps with a few photos & let your boss sort it all out & tell you what is required?

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi Best....

Its not that strange really :vanish: I get sent out as a plumber to stranger things believe me.....

i was thinking to myself that if I can give them a good report on what needs doing and the customer is ok with the price to change the cylinder (as the internal air gap seems on the way out) the company may put me through g3 training so as I an carry out the job. Everyones a winner customers prob sorted, company make money and I get the training..........

 

[townfanjon]

Going back to the earlier posts about building control, our building control wouldn't have a chuffing clue if you asked them what pipe you would use for a discharge pipe, personally I would just read g3 again and wouldn't waste my time phoning building control.

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Best....

Its not that strange really :vanish: I get sent out as a plumber to stranger things believe me.....

i was thinking to myself that if I can give them a good report on what needs doing and the customer is ok with the price to change the cylinder (as the internal air gap seems on the way out) the company may put me through g3 training so as I an carry out the job. Everyones a winner customers prob sorted, company make money and I get the training..........

Enough already - Eddie,
Your lack of knowledge is now cause for concern !!

The customer will not be sorted as you put it, least not to their satisfaction. "internal air gaps" by which I take it you mean the bubble at the top of the cylinder, can not be "on the way out" they either are or they are not, & if not, they can be recharged. If they are not big enough you can always add an expansion vessel.

Now please go & do the Part G ticket, get the training before some one gets hurt or ripped off.

If the boss will not pay for it how about you forking out its not a fortune, think of it as an investment in your skills.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi townfanjon

sounds like common sense but i need an up to date copy of G3. Usually get sound advise here hense the thread. Thought there was plastic pipe for H/W systems that ould be glued but on reflection a flexible pipe put throgh trunking would be better as there would be no joints. Think I will look into barrier pipe class if i can find it.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Bit OTT really Chris.... don't you think. I have no qualms paying for it myself if only I constantly did pressurised cylinders.. I have paid for my own training throughout thanks inc the gas but again don't do boilers constantly so the company paid for me to go on the register. I WOULD NOT undertake any work for which I am not deemed as competent and have worked on pressurised systems with others who have commissioned them. I came on here because I noticed a particularly dangerous situation when going to re charge a cylinder which I believe I am able to do as is the customer. With regards to the air gap it keeps failing so my report included options such as fitting an external one... However the cylinder is 20 years old and there are other works such as the discharge pipe that needs addressing (urgently so it may or may not) be worth the customer going to that expense and instead fitting a new cylinder for which I have asked the company to give a price..... I was aware that plastic pipe could now be used and the internal drain is the only realistic option as the outside wall is impossible to access with enough fall on the discharge pipe. NOW if we get the job I will pay for my training if the company won't but I take offence that you state that the customer will get hurt or ripped off. I have recognised a potentially dangerous situation with the discharge looked at options.I have advised them of their options re a new cylinder, external expansion and explained to them the benefits / cons of both. In the interim and within the regs i have resolved their issue of a leaking T&P valve by repressurised the cylinder but this has a history of only lasting a few months.

Thought I had covered all angles and explained risk re discharge pipe terminating internally 3"s of a communal floor the spray back at 3.5 bar would scalled everyone in the area. Still as long as a G3 qualified engineer fitted it eh ?????? Please feel free to reply what you would have done differently as I find your post quite insulting.

 

[Ermintrude]

Eddy your not competent or qualified to undertake the works to the cylinder as if you do one or one hundred thousand unvented cylinders you need to be g3 .suppose u change the odd gas valve and pcb too as your competent?

It is and has been for almost. 20 years for your employer to allow you to work on units your not competent or qualified to work on.

The HSE can now imprison you and your employer for manslaughter and corporate manslaughter. But hey ho let have a go.

 

[eddiebrown424]

No ermintrude I change the odd gas valve and PCB because I am on the gas register does no one on hear bother to read things?????? I am competent to dig up the floor locate and fit pipe work get this to the Tundish where unless as you correctly state Im competent to do so I would get my boss to do up the 35mm compression fitting.... But as I said if we get the job I will do the training.....one way or the other.... why????? because I work within the rules and take offense at your implying that i don't......

Please don't offend and run if you don't or can't be bothered to read things don't jump on the band wagon eh.

This post may appear to be blunt or sarcastic..... Thats because it is..

 

[AlexGas]

i was thinking to myself that if I can give them a good report on what needs doing ...

How are you gonna do it without G3!?

 

[eddiebrown424]

the whole idea of a post peeps (aside from holding up a fence) is that people READ IT.... please can people do so before commenting 🙂

 

[Ermintrude]

Sorry Eddie. You are GSR, but so is my mate who only has cookers. I have worked with one to many chancers! As hope u only work on the appliances your qualified to..... We had few Subbies who had ccn1 started to play with everything

 

[AlexGas]

...

 

[eddiebrown424]

with thanks Ermintrude it was the implication that I was a chancer that offended...... I do a responsible job and whilst I acknowledge my limitations would not do anything to endanger myself or others. Saying this life is about learning and expanding knowledge which is why I hit this site.....

 

[eddiebrown424]

with apologies Alex gas if i didn't see the funny side..... some comments here may have made me a bit defensive....... LOL

 

[Ermintrude]

the whole idea of a post peeps (aside from holding up a fence) is that people READ IT.... please can people do so before commenting 🙂

Whole idea of competent person scheme, is that the competent person completes all the work. Not just sign it off! Same as the gas saftey installation and use regulations .

 

[AlexGas]

Rule 1 To work on unvented systems – get G3 qual.
Rule 2 If one has no G3 qual but wants to work on unvented systems – see Rule 1.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Fair point ermintrude...... but hanging boilers running pipework such as condensate outside flows and returns to boilers etc is often completed by plumbers with the final bits i.e. gas pipe and commissioning completed by a competent person.... This is just a discharge pipe and as I have said if we get the job I have every intention of completing the G3 as the cylinder bit won't go ahead for a while and I need to do it for my piece of mind and of course safety...... Also how many plumbers who wire in and put spurs in for boilers are part p... Another course I have to do darn....... lol

 

[AlexGas]

i was thinking to myself that if I can give them a good report on what needs doing and the customer is ok with the price to change the cylinder (as the internal air gap seems on the way out) the company may put me through g3 training so as I an carry out the job. Everyones a winner customers prob sorted, company make money and I get the training..........

Here’s one for you, Eddie. Just imagine - one of your closest relatives or people want some work done in their house on unvented system. And some dude comes to the door without any qualifications, saying – I’m going to put together a good report to my boss. The question is - What are going to do about it? Will you let this dude into the house or not?

 

[eddiebrown424]

of course not Alexgas..... but I went to the job as a qualified plumber and havent done and will not do anything outside the regs. I feel I am competent to say what needs doing just not doing it which at no point in this post have I said I would do... and wouldn't. My concern was for the welfare of the customer around a dangerous discharge pipe which I have reported to my boss who is G3 qualified. I thought that i would be able to dig the trench and run pipe to main drain internal just not connect to the Tundish.... with apologies if I am wrong. Surely a good job starts with a good report or assessment maybe a good report has been taken out of context. I was trying to speed up the process so as the discharge pipe was put right ASAP as I no it is not to current standards (though I appreciate this terminology ralates to gas) but could have been on the original install. However that being said it needs sorting ASAP as its dangerous in my mind anyway.

 

[AlexGas]

of course not Alexgas..... but I went to the job as a qualified plumber and havent done and will not do anything outside the regs. I feel I am competent to say what needs doing just not doing it which at no point in this post have I said I would do... and wouldn't. My concern was for the welfare of the customer around a dangerous discharge pipe which I have reported to my boss who is G3 qualified. I thought that i would be able to dig the trench and run pipe to main drain internal just not connect to the Tundish.... with apologies if I am wrong.

Get your boss in ASAP!

 

[Ermintrude]

Eddie we don't employ "plumbers" we are a company who sole business is gas space and water heating. If you touch a ch job your either a GSE or working as an apprentice with a GSE.

Plumber is the most misused trade name ever. A plumber is a time served crafts person. Not a bloke with a van set of footprints and trousers covered in silicone and putty. Not saying your one of these but it upsets me the number of absolute twonks who are "plumbers" if your trousers coved in silicone you obviously had no training whatsoever or you just didn't learn.

Wipe your hands on my uniforms and next thing you see with logo on it will be your invoice for new kit. Followed by a disciplinary for gross misconduct - defacement of PPE

 

[SimonG]

What size pipe you going to run?

 

[eddiebrown424]

coudn't agree more with some points ermintrude...... You dont have to be GSR to change / hang a radiator, run pipework aside from gas there is a fair bit that can be done legally. These things all form part of a long route to get where you are going. I think there is a vast gulf between being a plumber and heating engineer youre right and you have to work blo..y hard to get there. The principle is the same tho there is vast gulf between someone who is learning and works within the rules and who has qualifications than someone who hasn't or doesn't. I fall into the category of the former. You have to back up knowledge with qualifications and I will....

 

[Ermintrude]

What size pipe you going to run?

Oh is that on 4g or 3G I'm on t-mobile but my mates EE?

 

[eddiebrown424]

Hi SimonG havent really got that far as yet.... Tundish pipe work is 35mm so i would say 42mm but this would need to be worked out according to table in G3 I guess would also depend on whether plastic or copper if its copper it hs to be braized I think.

 

[chris watkins]

I would like to re route it.
I read that the discharge pipe can terminate here as the tundish will suffice in showing there is a problem.
is this right?
I realise that there may be an issue with smells but also read that a HEPVO trap can be used to stop this.
I know plastic UPVC pipe can be used to carry the disharge are these facts right.

1. You would like to re-route it ! What was I to think but that you will be doing the work !!
2. You did not know that UPVC pipe could NOT be used & that it had to be push fit waste pipe.

Guess copper would be a better option rather than barrier pipe as it burried and would need a couple of fittings. I am not going to do anything illegal nd appreciate the concern.

"Barrier pipe" as you call it becomes an option only after it was pointed out on here that it could be used.

i was thinking to myself that if I can give them a good report on what needs doing and the customer is ok with the price to change the cylinder (as the internal air gap seems on the way out) the company may put me through g3 training so as I an carry out the job. Everyones a winner customers prob sorted, company make money and I get the training..........

Already explained about the bubble it can't be "on its way out"
Would this be carrying out the work before the training & assessment…. ? I believe the temptation would be there not to bother as you know all about them.

Bit OTT really Chris.... don't you think. I have no qualms paying for it myself if only I constantly did pressurised cylinders..So do the Part G then ! I WOULD NOT undertake any work for which I am not deemed as competent and have worked on pressurised systems with others who have commissioned them. I came on here because I noticed a particularly dangerous situation when going to re charge a cylinder which I believe I am able to do as is the customer.
There is a whole deal of difference between a customer carrying out a proceeder & you carrying out work i.e. charging for a service.
With regards to the air gap it keeps failing so my report included options such as fitting an external one... However the cylinder is 20 years old and there are other works such as the discharge pipe that needs addressing (urgently so it may or may not) be worth the customer going to that expense and instead fitting a new cylinder for which I have asked the company to give a price...
I have recognised a potentially dangerous situation with the discharge looked at options. I have advised them of their options re a new cylinder, external expansion and explained to them the benefits / cons of both. In the interim and within the regs i have resolved their issue of a leaking T&P valve by repressurised the cylinder but this has a history of only lasting a few months.
I would suggest that you have not resolved their issue at all, why would the T&P be discharging on pressure when it's pressure setting is always higher that that of the expansion relief safety valve !!!!

Thought I had covered all angles and explained risk re discharge pipe terminating internally 3"s of a communal floor the spray back at 3.5 bar would scalled everyone in the area. Still as long as a G3 qualified engineer fitted it eh ?????? Please feel free to reply what you would have done differently as I find your post quite insulting.

What I would have done in your situation Eddie is collect all the relevant details of the situation & pass them all on to your Part G boss who could, with his training knowledge & experience prepared the report.

You have done very well to identify a potentially dangerous situation & both I & I am sure your boss congratulate you for that.

If you find my posts insulting when the gaps in your knowledge & training have been exposed & correct in good faith, then that is your problem !! For my part I feel insulted by a so called fellow tradesman who carries out work without the appropriate qualifications but keeps stating that he is not really doing anything wrong.

 

[eddiebrown424]

Chris all I came on this site for was to find out some information. I was aware that plastic pipe could be used however as you rightly state there was a bit that I didnt know i.e. soil stacks and punching through the drain etc. I didnt comeon here to be abused and accussed of working without the correct qualifications or competencies... i never hveand never will. I passed my gas 2 years ago and have only just registered because I did not feel ready. I did have intentions of carrying out some of the work i.e. digging the trench punching trough the drain and as I said earlieer I thought that I could join the pipe nd let my boss connect to the tundish if this is wrong so be it I wont do it there is no temptation to do work without the qualifications. it was for my own learning curve that I wanted to learn from this not and i reiterate not to complete the job without the appropriate training. Why should I get slated for wanting to learn and comming onto this forum to try to do so. I am planning to look into training tomorrow but dont install or service pressurised cylinders to warrant it. However this experience has highlighted the fact that as i do attend (but dont work on) communal discharge pipework and advise customers that there is a problem and that they need to get a G3 plumber out the benefits of doing it so as I can recognise risks may be worthwhile. With regards to my terminology re the air gap I can only apologise and should have said (the air gap) keeps breaking down, or something else i dont really know what but i did advise that an external expansion may resolve the issue. I was sent and didnt know what I was attending to I repressurised the cylinder which i thought i could do (as the customer can). I reported to my boss and came on here to learn something. With apologies if i offended.

 

[newcastle phill]

Just been on a course with someone who claimed to be G3.
I quizzed him about it and he became sheepish when I enquired about the levels of safety protection to protect the cylinder. .

He summarised by stating he got someone else in to do the wiring...
So I then asked about the d1 and d2 distances.
I got a blank look back.....


A dangerous b***d.
He was self employed by the way

 

[townfanjon]

what he probably meant Phill was he had 3G on his phone

 

[kris]

Its a crying shame guys were all here to help each other , so lets all be helpfull and safe , PEACE TO ALL

 

[Ermintrude]

Get 4g stay ahead of the class

 

[eddiebrown424]

Nice ref phil n goodnight all I'm off to fit an un-vented cylinder...... chow...

 

[AWheating]

the customer is not there to perform "work". If a tennant pressed the reset button on a boiler after it has locked out thats fine, if a person turns up being paid to "work" on said boiler he needs to be competent to do so. Its not the pushing of the button or the regenerating of an air bubble that matters. its the knowledge of that system or appliance and knowing how it works that a competent person has that identifies the reasons why the fault has happend and being able to leave it in a safe working condition.

protect yourself eddie, if your boss wants you to work on such things then he should train you.

 

[jim fennessey]

I've got a sore head after all that

 

[eddiebrown424]

very diplomatic AWheating and taken on board. I am going to sort training out this week.