OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[trf0412]

Currently in the middle of a bathroom refit. Just had first-fix plumbing done and new flooring installed and plumber has sent me some photos of the pipework before flooring went down (see attached).

The shower and sink waste combine into one before crossing the joists to get to the soil pipe. From the photo the plumber sent me, it looks like there must be a fall from the shower waste down to the sink waste (it's pieces of rigid pipework joined with a straight connector, so can't possibly be falling from both ends, right?). Also, I'm not sure why a T-piece that should be used vertically has been used horizontally? Anyway, my logical conclusion is that water will be permanently sat in the section of pipe between the T-piece and where it turns to go up to the sink. So, if I'm right, that leads to a few questions:

• Is this going to pose a major problem or will the waste coming from the sink just displace the water in the pipe as it would be coming from a higher source?
• Will this set-up result in the sink draining too slowly and backing up?
• Is there a risk the sink waste could get into the shower tray (esp. with the strange T-piece that's been used, meaning the water will need to do a sharp left-turn)?
• How about the water coming from the shower while showering? Will it all flow via the T-piece down to the soil pipe, or is there a chance it will push water back up the sink waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Needs a fall on the basin pipe and that plumbing also isn't upto par

Yes
Yes
No
Yes

 

[trf0412]

Can you give me more details about why it isn't up to par? I'm aware that plumber has drilled holes through joists higher than they should be, but would be interested to know what else you've spotted.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Notching and holes arnt really correctly done

Mix and match push fit fittings

Inserts in plastic pipe ?

Long left runs arnt clipped so possibility of a thud every time you close a tap if on mains pressure

 

[trf0412]

By the way, my questions 1 and 4 had two parts, so I don't know which part your "yes" answers relate to. Depending on which part of the question you were replying to, the answers are complete opposites of each other...

 

[trf0412]

Yes, the notching and holes are a bit of a mess... not really anything I can do about these now, apart from hope they don't cause an issue. The bits of reinforcing wood are only there because I insisted on having them, but I don't know exactly how much they will help things. (A lot of the notches are pre-existing ones, though, so not all done by our plumber).

The mix-and-match fittings are probably due to the fact that we had a new boiler installed recently and the plumbers on that job used Hep20 pipe and fittings. Our current plumber uses Speedfit and has just continued on from the exisiting pipes/fittings, so I'm not too worried about this.

Not sure what you mean by inserts in plastic pipe?

Hmm... thud when turning off tap doesn't sound ideal... we have high pressure mains...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

By the way, my questions 1 and 4 had two parts, so I don't know which part your "yes" answers relate to. Depending on which part of the question you were replying to, the answers are complete opposites of each other...

First part will cause problems later on if it's falling the wrong way (blocking etc)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes, the notching and holes are a bit of a mess... not really anything I can do about these now, apart from hope they don't cause an issue. The bits of reinforcing wood are only there because I insisted on having them, but I don't know exactly how much they will help things. (A lot of the notches are pre-existing ones, though, so not all done by our plumber).

The mix-and-match fittings are probably due to the fact that we had a new boiler installed recently and the plumbers on that job used Hep20 pipe and fittings. Our current plumber uses Speedfit and has just continued on from the exisiting pipes/fittings, so I'm not too worried about this.

Not sure what you mean by inserts in plastic pipe?

Hmm... thud when turning off tap doesn't sound ideal... we have high pressure mains...

Ok

That's fair enough thought he did the lot

And plastic pipe require inserts internally to the pip

Pic in attachment

 

[1Steven]

I never connect basin with shower.

 

[oz-plumber]

I've seen it all now.

There is no way that the person who did the waste / drain pipe has any knowledge about plumbing.
There is no way that will work correctly and will cause you insurmountable problems in the future.

The way the junction is installed you cannot get fall from the shower or the basin.

Unbelievable!!!!!

 

[trf0412]

Ok

That's fair enough thought he did the lot

And plastic pipe require inserts internally to the pip

Pic in attachment

View attachment 30792

Not something I can see, obviously, but I guess he used these. If they are a key element of the join, then presumably there would be leaks without them, right?

 

[trf0412]

There is no way that will work correctly and will cause you insurmountable problems in the future.

The way the junction is installed you cannot get fall from the shower or the basin.

What makes you say we can't get a fall from the shower either? (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have no plumbing experience/knowledge). Is it because half the water will travel down through the sink waste pipe and not all be diverted down the main waste? Would the water not fill up the pipe leading to the sink first and then, once it's full of water with nowhere to go, take the path of least resistence down to the soil pipe?

 

[Stigster]

Even six inches more waste pipe and an elbow would have improved that situation. Water flows downhill under gravity. Simple as that. Water will drain away from that system but it is going to block at the elbow from the basin because it's a low point/no fall. Soap, hair, oils will gather there.

 

[snowhead]

That waste junction wants cutting out now and redoing.

It would have cost 1 more 32mm Elbow and for the Tee to be in the correct orientation.
Whoever did that doesn't understand how water flows and wouldn't have been aware of these either;

POLYPIPE Solv 40 White Cross Tee .. WS38 | Priority Plumbing

 

[Best]

In short, - he isn't a plumber.
Amazed that the "plumber" actually took those photos of that work he did and sent them to you!
Bit like a burglar taking a selfie when stealing your property and then sending you the photo. 🙂
Usually work like that is photographed by the customer to have proof or make complaint to the installer. (Or some of us take photos for hall of shame plumbing work)
I wouldn't want the other work to be completed with same person.

 

[1Steven]

Now you have seen everything, fitted in a carehome.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Now you have seen everything, fitted in a carehome.View attachment 30796

motorised up and down sink?

 

[1Steven]

No fitted in a sluice room.
Waste is just held in with silicone.

 

[oz-plumber]

What makes you say we can't get a fall from the shower either? (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have no plumbing experience/knowledge). Is it because half the water will travel down through the sink waste pipe and not all be diverted down the main waste? Would the water not fill up the pipe leading to the sink first and then, once it's full of water with nowhere to go, take the path of least resistence down to the soil pipe?

You have about as much understanding about how plumbing drainage works as your so called plumber.

Fair enough, you probably don't need to know.

But all the advice you have been given regarding the work done you had better take on board, because you will be accessing the drain in the near future if you don't have it corrected at this stage.

Far cheaper to rectify now than after the bathroom has been completed.

Just out of interest, you must have had some thoughts on whether it has been done correctly otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions on here.

 

[bambers]

B

 

[ShaunCorbs]

B

C

 

[Ric2013]

I would argue it is GOOD to have the tee horizontal. Less of a plug of water to cause induced siphonage if the tee is horizontal. But minimum fall should really be 18mm per metre and I agree you won't have anything near that. I know this under the floor, but I would like the design to be possible to unblock if it blocks, and you'll only be able to access via the traps, so poor design to have the tee there like that.

The tee is designed to flow right to left and accept a branch from the bottom (ups and downs and lefts and rights based on your first picture being pinned to a wall) so it's in wrong. I don't like to see knuckle bends, unless strictly necessary (how will you rod that if it blocks?).

I dislike sharing basin and shower wastes. I have done it, but would not ever do it out of choice.

I have seen worse though, but personally would want it to be 100% correct if it won't be accessible again.

Looks like your plumber has used copper pipe to transition from Hep to Speedfit which is the most correct way of making the transition.

The purpose of inserts (according to a merchant who had spoken to a plastic pipe company rep) is they ensure the pipe is and remains perfectly round. They should always be used (unless you're making a joint that only needs to work for 5 minutes). Not sure how you can tell they are absent without dismantling.

Hots and cold should not be run together unless properly insulated to keep the cold water at a hygienic temperature.

If that were my house, I would want all hot runs lagged, but this would be above the industry standard, so you'd have to ask for this and pay extra.

 

[bambers]

In short, - he isn't a plumber.
Amazed that the "plumber" actually took those photos of that work he did and sent them to you!
Bit like a burglar taking a selfie when stealing your property and then sending you the photo. 🙂
Usually work like that is photographed by the customer to have proof or make complaint to the installer. (Or some of us take photos for hall of shame plumbing work)
I wouldn't want the other work to be completed with same person.

 

[trf0412]

Sorry for the silence. For some reason I stopped receiving email updates, so didn't realise there had been more responses.

Just out of interest, you must have had some thoughts on whether it has been done correctly otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions on here.

Indeed. But my main concern was that the pipe travelling from the shower waste to the sink waste has a fall from the shower to the sink, and I was therefore concerned about the sink waste. But you're saying we can't get a fall from the shower either – that's the bit I don't understand, since there is a fall on that section of the waste pipe. But by the sounds of it I must be missing something. I'm not a plumber, so if I've misunderstood something please could you explain?

Even six inches more waste pipe and an elbow would have improved that situation.

Since I'm not a plumber, could you explain where you would put the extra 6 inches?

I dislike sharing basin and shower wastes. I have done it, but would not ever do it out of choice.

What's the reason for not sharing them - i.e. what are the sorts of problems this could cause?

Looks like your plumber has used copper pipe to transition from Hep to Speedfit which is the most correct way of making the transition.

This either means he's done something right, which is good, or the copper pipe was left there by the plumbers who replaced the boiler and rads.

The purpose of inserts (according to a merchant who had spoken to a plastic pipe company rep) is they ensure the pipe is and remains perfectly round. They should always be used (unless you're making a joint that only needs to work for 5 minutes). Not sure how you can tell they are absent without dismantling.

Yep, no way for me to tell if they've been used. I've a feeling I saw a bag of them, though, so I think he probably used them.

Hots and cold should not be run together unless properly insulated to keep the cold water at a hygienic temperature.

I hadn't thought about this. But is heat-transfer such a big issue with plastic pipes? I guess it's less of an issue than with 2 copper pipes run side-by-side.

 

[trf0412]

Thanks for everyone's responses. Good job I questioned whether the work so far is up to scratch as everyone is in agreement that this could (or should I say will?) give me problems. So, the next step is to ask how to tackle this?

Obviously, when you've agreed for a tradesman to come in and do a job it puts you in a bit of an awkward position. If I call his work into question I doubt he'll be very happy and it will make me worried about him finishing the rest of the work if he feels I've undermined him. If I cut the work short, then there's the issue of how much I should pay him, and the added issue of finding someone else to finish the job off.

And then there's a 3rd option – Would sorting out all the pipework from the floor below be feasible at all? There's already a section of the ceiling plasterboard missing below the bathroom (unrelated to this job) and we'll be having that re-plastered soon, so cutting out a bit section of ceiling to access the bathroom pipework won't be a problem.

Any other ideas about how to handle the situation I'm in?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

 

[trf0412]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

 

[ShaunCorbs]

well that would worrie me to the point of sacking him if hes happy with that hes defo no plumber

 

[trf0412]

Right... sounds like I need to have a chat with him, even if it's an awkward one. Just so I am fully clued up before asking him to rectify things, could someone give me a list of what they would do to put this right? Would the following sort things?

1) Cut out and replace the tee with an elbow (so shower waste is kept separate from basin waste initially)
2) Take basin waste through 2 joists (although this would require drilling 2 more holes) before joining it back in with the shower waste (so that it has a fall on in before it meets the waste coming from shower)
3) Clip pipes to joists

Or would it be best to avoid step 2 by trying to get a fall on the basin waste before it joins up with the shower waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

hope this helps

both can have independent falls and not tied by each others t in position

you could ask him does he have an nvq in plumbing if he doesnt hes a handy man and not a plumber

 

[trf0412]

Yes, that helps a lot - thanks!

Such a simple, elegant solution and one which easily allows the fall on the basin waste to be independent of the fall on the shower waste. (Now I've seen the suggested fix, I'm amazed why he didn't simply do this in the first place?!). However, this will only work if the pipe going across the joists doesn't start so high up as to rule out getting enough fall from the basin... if it does, then I'm not sure what we'll do.

So, in this set-up, would it be right to use the same tee that he already used (i.e. one that would direct the flow from the shower down to the right)?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Doing it correctly is another matter

Should be more than enough might need to slot the joist the basin end but other than that should have a good fall on it

No as you can't unglue the fittings

 

[trf0412]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Hmm, maybe I should just take up floor and do it myself!

might need to slot the joist the basin end

Yes, I thought that might be necessary.

No as you can't unglue the fittings

Hehe! Sorry, I didn't mean reusing the exact same one, I just meant the same design.

 

[Chuck]

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

Tell your plumber that you have had your attention drawn to some defects that need rectifying. Make it clear that either he fixes it, and to a proper standard, or you will get another company who does understand what plumbing installed 'with reasonable skill and care' (use exactly those words) means.

Your only decision, which largely depends on how much you value your own time, is whether to try and get the person who installed the mess in the photographs to fix it or cut your losses and get someone else to do it again right.

I'm old enough to have learned you can't get blood out of a stone. In your circumstances I would write off any sunk costs to experience and get a reputable trader to redo the work to a more appropriate standard.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Also you will need an anti vac trap on the basin

I wouldn't do it my self either plumber does it or he doesn't get paid for the waste pipe simple and if he choose not to change the design of it by by get another plumber in

 

[trf0412]

So, Chuck votes I sack him, Shaun votes I give him a chance to put things right. So far it's a tie!

I'll see how responsive he is to the idea of rectifying things and then guess I'll go from there, as generally speaking he has been quite willing to listen and do what I've asked. Having said that, I should point out that one of the things I asked him to do was reinforce the joists where he was cutting holes - if I hadn't asked him to he wouldn't have done that, so perhaps that's not a good sign either?

Another issue I have is where the pipes clash with the shower trap... instead of re-running the pipes to avoid this, which may have needed another small notch, he chose instead to cut out one massive notch! As it's now covered I can see how deep it goes, but I'd guess from the photo it's easily 50% of the joist height!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep not good upto you tbh do you still trust him if you don't by bt there's the door if you do see if he will listen to your concerns

 

[Ric2013]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

 

[trf0412]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Yep, I've seen them which is why (i) I was so shocked to see what he's done and (ii) I insisted on him reinforcing the holes (no idea how much it will help, but it will certainly be better than nothing).

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

Thanks for this explanation. Very helpful. So, in an ideal world, should each appliance have its own waste which runs all the way to the soil pipe? Or is it ok for them to join up further downstream?

 

[Guitarjon]

Cricky, I was going to write a long winded post about how many things look wrong with those pictures but it's been covered and not fair to bang on about it, especially as it's not the poster doing the work. Certainly no plumber with actually knowledge on regs or qualifications has done any of that. If it is somebody with conpentancy they need reporting and pecious work checking out.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm making a call here.

The OP has done the work himself.

Claims not to have much knowledge on plumbing - but seems to have all the right answers. - Even cocky ones.

Claims the plumber who did the work said - 'Please trust me'
Then goes on to ask whether or not to sack the plumber and claims a tie between the outcome of 2 posts.

Then states that the drain can be repaired by removing plaster ceiling on the floor below - that makes economic sense.
15 minutes to repair at this stage or 25+ hours of work to access, replace and make good ceiling below.

I doubt any plumber would fit a tee like that and run a drain from a basin with reverse fall - for the sake of saving the cost of 1 bend.

This thread has had hairs on it since the 1st post.

Anyone agree?

 

[Stigster]

Yes, that helps a lot - thanks!

Such a simple, elegant solution and one which easily allows the fall on the basin waste to be independent of the fall on the shower waste. (Now I've seen the suggested fix, I'm amazed why he didn't simply do this in the first place?!). However, this will only work if the pipe going across the joists doesn't start so high up as to rule out getting enough fall from the basin... if it does, then I'm not sure what we'll do.

So, in this set-up, would it be right to use the same tee that he already used (i.e. one that would direct the flow from the shower down to the right)?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner but Shaun's drawing shows where the extra 6 (ish) inches of pipe and the elbow will go as I'm sure you've worked out now.

 

[trf0412]

I'm making a call here.

The OP has done the work himself.

Claims not to have much knowledge on plumbing - but seems to have all the right answers. - Even cocky ones.

Claims the plumber who did the work said - 'Please trust me'
Then goes on to ask whether or not to sack the plumber and claims a tie between the outcome of 2 posts.

Then states that the drain can be repaired by removing plaster ceiling on the floor below - that makes economic sense.
15 minutes to repair at this stage or 25+ hours of work to access, replace and make good ceiling below.

I doubt any plumber would fit a tee like that and run a drain from a basin with reverse fall - for the sake of saving the cost of 1 bend.

This thread has had hairs on it since the 1st post.

Anyone agree?

Hmm... very interesting accusation! I can assure you I did not do the work and everything I've said is true including what the plumber said to me, but it makes no difference to me whether you believe me or not.

I would however be interested to know what "cocky answers" you are referring to?

You may doubt whether a plumber would fit a tee like that, but those are the facts.

Regarding fixing from below through the ceiling, I may not have explained the full story, but the ceiling below already has a strip taken out of it and will be patched up and skimmed in the next few weeks, so not as drastic as you make out. Also, since the shower tray has already been stuck down, access from above is already restricted.

 

[trf0412]

Sorry I didn't get back sooner but Shaun's drawing shows where the extra 6 (ish) inches of pipe and the elbow will go as I'm sure you've worked out now.

Thanks for getting back to me. I actually took a screenshot of Shaun's drawing and showed it to our plumber and he agreed to implement the changes (although didn't feel it was strictly necessary). We now have a good fall on the first small section of pipe crossing the joist from the basin waste, and the tee and elbow at the shower end have been sorted, so things are looking much better! Unfortunately, the section between the two elbows still has a very slight uphill incline, but I'm hoping I can reduce this by propping the pipe up at one end with a piece of wood or something.

Incidentally, the plumber chose to implement these fixes from below, so that idea clearly wasn't as mad as it sounded. As I said, the pipes were already partly visible from below and I just made a bigger opening.

 

[Best]

Sorry, but I wouldn't have that guy do any more work and I would personally have all his work removed. He must be a novice to plumbing.
I have just looked again at the original photo and everything on view is wrong.
Way below a minimum acceptable standard of work.

 

[Ric2013]

So, in an ideal world, should each appliance have its own waste which runs all the way to the soil pipe?

Yes

Or is it ok for them to join up further downstream?

Depends on the circumstances as we don't live in an ideal world.

 

[oz-plumber]

Way below a minimum acceptable standard of work.

Bar the fact it is way below minimum acceptable standard of work, it doesn't and never will comply with plumbing regulations.

I would love to see photo's of the amendments from below.

And even after the rectifications, the 'plumber' still has an uphill flow from the basin to the tee.
Basin wastes require a minimum fall of 25mm per metre.
I wonder what the reasoning behind that is - maybe they haven't updated the minimum fall requirements on drains for more than a hundred years or so.

I can't believe the OP is still defending his plumber.

 

[Best]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.
Seems to be a very decent and forgiving person.
I doubt if I would get away with that work for many of my customers.

 

[Chuck]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.

There's always two sides to every story. The missing side to this one is what was agreed between the 'plumber' and the OP and at what price.

Most of the professionals who advise on this forum work at the high-end of the market, enjoy their trade and want to keep learning and help others learn. They are typically properly trained and qualified, charge what the job needs to cost to make a reasonable living and won't cut corners.

But don't forget that at the other end of the market there are people who are pretty much working for food and are being ruthlessly exploited by those willing to employ them.

 

[trf0412]

Here's a photo from below. It's not easy to see from this photo where there is a good fall and where there isn't, but this is somewhat of an improvement.

 

[trf0412]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.
Seems to be a very decent and forgiving person.
I doubt if I would get away with that work for many of my customers.

Well, unfortunately it's not that simple to just sack someone and find an alternative when your bathroom has been ripped out and you have a family (with two kids under the age of 3) to think about. The time it takes to get a quote and find someone with availability in the area where we live would delay things by several weeks or months.

But I think the main reason I come across as forgiving is because as a customer, with very little to no knowledge of plumbing, I don't feel qualified to criticise work done by someone who is supposed to be a professional plumber. The only reason I was confident about questioning the waste pipework was because gravity is something everyone knows about (apart from our plumber it would seem!!).

Also, the suggestion to rip out everything he's done and start from scratch won't address the problem with the notches and holes not complying with building regs, so provided I can make sure there is a fall from the basin, what is there to be gained from starting again? Granted, the wastes could all be kept separate if everything was redone, but that would mean cutting more holes and weakening joists even more, so not ideal...

 

[trf0412]

He probably should have used a length of pipe between the tee and the elbow, right?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

🙁

I wouldn't be happy with that (with what I've seen in the pic)


Basin pipe going through the joist too short

11/2 - 11/4 reducer not all the way in and male to female elbow the same

 

[trf0412]

Basin pipe going through the joist too short

11/2 - 11/4 reducer not all the way in and male to female elbow the same

Oh dear...! What issues are likely to arise from basin pipe going through joist being too short?

I showed plumber a screenshot of your suggested fix, and thought for the most part he'd done what I asked, but I didn't realise it was still so sub-standard.

I wondered whether the reducer should be sticking out the way it is, but provided there's a good seal, will that be a problem?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Other than looking terrible and putting more stress t end no

And supposed to be flush same with the elbow they could pop out

 

[FG28]

fitted bathrooms for years before doing the gas and now do the occasional one or two ,
All i can say is
Not even nvq1 level ,.
It will all work but it just looks horrific ,,
Be very intrested to see the finishing ,?
Is he tiling it too
Aqua panel or similair used around shower area ?
Intial silicone seal round tray ?
The lists endless ,.
Next time id just pay that little bit more and get a proper bathroom fitter not john the pushfit cowboy ,.
Good luck

 

[trf0412]

fitted bathrooms for years before doing the gas and now do the occasional one or two ,
All i can say is
Not even nvq1 level ,.
It will all work but it just looks horrific ,,
Be very intrested to see the finishing ,?
Is he tiling it too
Aqua panel or similair used around shower area ?
Intial silicone seal round tray ?
The lists endless ,.
Next time id just pay that little bit more and get a proper bathroom fitter not john the pushfit cowboy ,.
Good luck

The "it will all work" bit gives me at least some peace of mind, as it's been a bit stressful worrying about all this. But I won't be getting the ceiling below patched up until the bathroom has been in use for a few weeks, just to be on the safe side!

Pretty much all the bathroom fitters were quoting with a couple of hundred of each other, and I didn't go with the cheapest quote...

It's someone else doing the tiling.

Is it wrong to silicone the shower tray in place? I've a feeling that's what he's done...

 

[FG28]

The "it will all work" bit gives me at least some peace of mind, as it's been a bit stressful worrying about all this. But I won't be getting the ceiling below patched up until the bathroom has been in use for a few weeks, just to be on the safe side!

Pretty much all the bathroom fitters were quoting with a couple of hundred of each other, and I didn't go with the cheapest quote...

It's someone else doing the tiling.

Is it wrong to silicone the shower tray in place? I've a feeling that's what he's done...

If its a resin tray it HAS to be cement or a rapid set adhesive , there are quite a few that can be put down using mastic but i would not use a normal silicone , something like CT1 or sticks like , 2 very good grabs adhesives ,
Id google your tray fitting instructions if he hasnt left them there , else that really will come back to bite
Bathrooms really are simple if you do plumbing day in day out , can clearly see you fitter doesnt ? Is he young ? Cut him a little slack if hes just started out ,.

 

[trf0412]

If its a resin tray it HAS to be cement or a rapid set adhesive , there are quite a few that can be put down using mastic but i would not use a normal silicone , something like CT1 or sticks like , 2 very good grabs adhesives ,
Id google your tray fitting instructions if he hasnt left them there , else that really will come back to bite
Bathrooms really are simple if you do plumbing day in day out , can clearly see you fitter doesnt ? Is he young ? Cut him a little slack if hes just started out ,.

Yep, we have a stone resin tray, so I will definitely be looking for the instructions to see what they say. If he did use silicone, I think it may have been the Dow Corning one (good quality one?), as that got mentioned at one point. If it turns out it should have been cemented in and wasn't, what are the sorts of things that could go wrong?

Yep, he's pretty young (24) so I'm hoping the mistakes are due to lack of experience and not due to lack of training/qualifications! But I get the impression he's fitted quite a few bathrooms in his time.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

24 he should have an nvq if he doesn't he's not qualified

 

[trf0412]

Yep, shower tray instructions say tray must be installed on bed of sand & cement. I'm 90% sure I didn't see him put down any sand & cement unless he managed to knock some up and install it in the 15-0r-so mins I wasn't looking! But, I can see no sign whatsoever of a sand & cement mix having oozed out beyond the edge of the tray, which I think would be the case if it had been used, right?

I was happy to cut him a little slack with the messed up waste pipes (on the assumption I could get someone else in to fix things from below if absolutely necessary), but not installing a tray correctly and leaving open the possibility of it cracking several months or years down the line and leaving me with a big mess on my hands is making me seriously consider finding someone else to finish the job!

Just how easy will it be to remove it now he's siliconed it into place? Can the silicone be carefully cut away or have I already got a big problem on my hands?

 

[Best]

Probably the silicone will have glued the tray to the floor enough to prevent you moving it without damaging it.
Hard one to call, but if it is installed level and seem solid with no movement, it might not give trouble. Risk is yours though.

 

[trf0412]

Probably the silicone will have glued the tray to the floor enough to prevent you moving it without damaging it.
Hard one to call, but if it is installed level and seem solid with no movement, it might not give trouble. Risk is yours though.

Hmm... tricky. It's sat on a new piece of OSB flooring, so pretty level, but do I want to take the risk when the installation instructions say it must be installed STRICTLY in accordance with them? If I go down the route of removing it and it gets damaged, couldn't I deduct the cost of a replacement from what I pay him, since it would have been directly due to his negligence?

Talking of which, how do plumbers and clients generally agree on an amount to be paid when work is cut short in cases when the quote is for the whole job? Any advice?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Osb ? really tbh should be 18 marine ply

And work - anything bad / having to be re done which is most of it in my opinion😀

 

[trf0412]

We agreed on marine ply when he quoted me... and it got mentioned again in an email. Then the day he started the job he talked about using chipboard! I talked him out of that and we ended up with OSB, which I thought was as strong as ply and therefore this didn't concern me too much. What are the main reasons for using marine ply over OSB? (i.e. should I be considering having the flooring changed over?)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

We agreed on marine ply when he quoted me... and it got mentioned again in an email. Then the day he started the job he talked about using chipboard! I talked him out of that and we ended up with OSB, which I thought was as strong as ply and therefore this didn't concern me too much. What are the main reasons for using marine ply over OSB? (i.e. should I be considering having the flooring changed over?)

If it's gets wet for any reason it goes to mush and fails

That's mainly why we install cylinders or tanks on ply bases

 

[trf0412]

If it's gets wet for any reason it goes to mush and fails

That's mainly why we install cylinders or tanks on ply bases

OSB goes to mush as well? I know that happens with chipboard, but didn't know about OSB. So, if I have the tray redone, would you suggest replacing with marine ply? Or is that more of a belts & braces approach and OSB is just about ok?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

OSB goes to mush as well? I know that happens with chipboard, but didn't know about OSB. So, if I have the tray redone, would you suggest replacing with marine ply? Or is that more of a belts & braces approach and OSB is just about ok?

Well I would but will only go to mush if it's wet so thinking like that just make sure all your seals are good and mastics are good quality and are re sealed pre actively you should be fine

 

[trf0412]

What else should I be on the lookout for?

Hopefully all the hot & cold feeds are ok, as the room has now been plastered (no concerns there, though, as we used our own plasterer who has done an excellent job - put up a new suspended ceiling to make sure it's dead level, built out a wall so bath isn't sat in a corner which isn't a right angle etc.).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Atm nothing should be just second fix if your happy ish atm

 

[trf0412]

Yeah, that's what I mean... what things could go wrong at the point of 2nd fix? He's already (i) shown complete ignorance of building regs, (ii) messed up waste pipes, even on 2nd attempt, (iii) stuck down stone resin shower tray with silicone. I can't do much about (i) and (ii) has been partly resolved.

I don't really want to let him mess around fixing the shower tray issue, but if I can't find anyone else, are there many more things he could screw up during 2nd fix or has most of the damage been done?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

TBH I would say most of the damage has been done second fix is the easy ish part

 

[trf0412]

Ah, right... tough call to make then....

I can live with the OSB, even though it's not what we agreed.
I can live with the fact he made schoolboy errors when cutting out floorboards.
I'm not happy with the holes and notches, but can't do much about it now.
I'm not entirely happy with waste pipes, but they are at least better now and just about acceptable if I can tweak it to give it more of a fall.

But the shower tray issue is causing me to rethink things. What's the point of spending thousands of a new bathroom if there's a real risk of the tray cracking some unspecified time down the line? Replacing that would cost hundreds if not thousands given all the upheaval and retiling that would be required.

I think it's going to be a case of getting someone else in to finish the work or else accepting that the shower tray isn't installed as per the manufacturer's instructions and hoping it never cracks. Asking the current plumber to redo the tray is not an option I'm willing to consider.

 

[FG28]

Ah, right... tough call to make then..

I can live with the OSB, even though it's not what we agreed.
I can live with the fact he made schoolboy errors when cutting out floorboards.
I'm not happy with the holes and notches, but can't do much about it now.
I'm not entirely happy with waste pipes, but they are at least better now and just about acceptable if I can tweak it to give it more of a fall.

But the shower tray issue is causing me to rethink things. What's the point of spending thousands of a new bathroom if there's a real risk of the tray cracking some unspecified time down the line? Replacing that would cost hundreds if not thousands given all the upheaval and retiling that would be required.

I think it's going to be a case of getting someone else in to finish the work or else accepting that the shower tray isn't installed as per the manufacturer's instructions and hoping it never cracks. Asking the current plumber to redo the tray is not an option I'm willing to consider.

He needs sacking
Osb floor , seriously got to be a wind up this Siliconed resin tray , against all mi s which in turn foooks the guarantee which will no doubt come back to haunt you
Did he pva the osb before laying it or did he bosh it straight onto dusty osb
Are the walls aqua paneled or greenmoisture resistant plaster board
I would not be letting it go any further
Imo that tray needs to be redone ,.

 

[FG28]

 

[FG28]

heres a pic of a resin tray i had to take out as it had failed , installed on chipboard floor and siliconed down
The end result after approx 14 months in a rented property
Up to you mate

 

[Best]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.
As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

 

[Best]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

 

[FG28]

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

Ever since john guest popped up everyones a plumber , thats the problem ,

 

[FG28]

 

[oz-plumber]

The 'Plumber' who did that work is not a plumber.

The worst plumber - on a bad day - could not do what this 'Plumber' did.
The first picture of the drain says it all.
-Drains falling the wrong way and the junction incorrectly installed.

The fact is, the 'plumber' who did this has absolutely no idea what he is doing and definitely no experience in the trade.
He could never have worked under anyone to train and teach him how to do things properly.

If you asked people in the street what way should the water flow through this junction, I reckon 75% of them would give you the correct answer by looking at the fitting - and this bloke installed it the wrong way - that says alot

Whats worse is that he has unleashed his inexperience on an unsuspecting homeowner and it will be the homeowner that will have to foot the bills for repairs.

What do you guy's reckon it would cost to put everything right at this stage.

Let alone accessing everything in 12 to 18 months to redo it then.

 

[trf0412]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.

I'd be happy for a new plumber to start from scratch, except for the hot and cold pipework going to the shower/bath/basin/toilet, as these have now been plastered over and I'm not sure ripping them out and having to replaster all over again will help much? (...assuming they are all done ok). But redoing the wastes would make sense, hopefully not requiring cutting any more holes or notches.

As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

Thanks - I'll have to give this some thought. I've now told him I will be finding someone else to do the remedial works and finish the job. He wasn't very happy about me questioning things, of course, and insisted that that is how he always lays shower trays and assured me I wouldn't have a single problem (...and that he was so sure of this that he would guarantee to come back to fix everything at his cost if anything went wrong... etc, etc). Anyway, he's asking for about 55% of what he quoted for the plumbing element of the job (luckily for me, plastering, tiling etc were itemised on the quote) for having completed the 1st fix. That sounds about right, in the sense that the 2nd fix is less labour (or that's the impression I get), so in principle I would be happy to pay him what he's asked for. My main issue is if the shower tray cracks when it gets removed to be re-fitted. Should I deduct the replacement cost from what I give him? And since he didn't finish the job, he didn't get round to disposing of the waste, which I guess will not be my responsibility.

 

[trf0412]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Thanks! Feeling a bit sorry for myself too... 🙂

 

[trf0412]

Any suggestions how to go about removing the shower tray that's been stuck down? I'm inclined to rectify this part of the mess myself, and leave the new plumber (once I've got a replacement sorted) to just connect up the waste since he'll have access from below.

If I manage to remove the tray, I will also lay a new section of flooring (since old plumber has cut out a much larger section than permitted by the installation instructions). Would it be ok to put down 18mm marine ply and leave the other half of the floor with OSB? The reason is the bath has already been screwed to the floor and siliconed to the wall and I would prefer to avoid disrupting this if possible.

 

[Ric2013]

I once installed a (2nd hand - customer supplied) shower tray on a wooden plinth using 'sticks like' on the basis that sticks like will go hard enough to avoid flexing, unlike silicone. Would people say this is wrong? And are we sure the plumber sat his tray on silicone and not gripfill, no more nails, or similar?

 

[Best]

I have installed most trays with plaster or sand and cement, but I must confess I have also used tile adhesive or silicone on some, but only where suitable. I think silicone would be absolutely fine if just bedding a tray that just needed the surface very slight irregularities evened out, but otherwise dead level surface.
New and old timber moves and dries, so doesn't matter what you do, trays will move

 

[trf0412]

I can't be sure how many irregularities the tray has or how minor/major they are, but from the last 2 posts it's starting to sound like silicone isn't necessarily as bad as I thought people were saying it was?

Is the main issue simply the fact that not bedding it in to sand & cement would void the warranty? Or is the tray significantly more likely to crack if installed on silicone? It would be interesting to know the statistics re. how many correctly vs incorrectly installed trays crack...

 

[Best]

Most trays that crack aren't properly bedded on anything.
Warranty will be void if not to MIs, but that doesn't mean tray will give trouble

 

[trf0412]

Well, I don't think our tray is properly bedded on silicone either. From below I can poke a thin bit of wood in between the shower tray and the flooring, so there's definitely no support in those places, and definitely no support in the big waste cut-out he did. Sounds like it's not worth taking the risk of not fixing it... but how do I go about removing the tray currently stuck down with silicone?! Not looking forward to this...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift and hope for the best pry bar works the best

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 30873

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve 🙂 not too bad the first fix 😀
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

 

[Best]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

 

[Old Account]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

The whole job should come out of his pocket. Each pipe and joint as well as each minute for the other engineer ( qualified ) should be paid from his pocket.

 

[trf0412]

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve 🙂 not too bad the first fix 😀
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

 

[Best]

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

He could take you to Small Claims Court for any amount extra he thinks he is due but you could fight it or also claim of him.
He would have to prove his work was satisfactory etc, likewise you would have to prove the work was badly done and therefore unacceptable. A qualified plumbers report on the work would be enough evidence for you to take to court to counter your first plumber.
I would take plenty of photos of all the work,the rubble, etc, left not taken away, plus stage by stage removal of faults, like shower tray base.
Manufacturers instructions, building regs for evidence and any quotes your plumber gave you. Judges love plenty of evidence.
I don't think you will have a problem with the plumber as he will know he is in the wrong, but best you gather evidence now and retain it.
Keep any communications - letter, emails, texts, etc, polite and reasonable, as you also need those as proof of your objections, so have copies.
My take on all this is your plumber probably deserves to be paid for any labour done correctly, - so whatever cost for removing old bathroom suite, plus some money for basic labour and not too much extra. You really need what you were going to pay him, to be paid to another plumber

 

[trf0412]

Thanks - very helpful advice. Re. paying him for "any labour done correctly", that's where there's going to be a fair amount of disagreement as in his mind everything was done correctly!

I'm going to go back to the person who recommended him to me to see if they know whether he has any qualifications, because even I'm starting to question whether he has any plumbing qualifications or just learnt on the job!

 

[Old Account]

As @Best has said, take all relevant pictures. At the claim court it's important what you can proof not what you know or have heard. The more you can proof the better it's for you. Everyone can tell it is a bodge job and not done to a satisfactory standard. I would refuse to pay, wouldn't even pay a penny until it's put right. I'd rather take him to the claim court if he is not willing to sort the pipework out. I always take pictures because not only builders doing rough jobs you've got more rough customers than cowboy builders. And those people like to go to claim courts and trying to get things done for free. However, in your case it is clearly the builders fault. Good luck

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

 

[oz-plumber]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

In that case the 'Plumber?' that did the work will be owing the OP a truck load of cash.

I can;t believe the OP was willing to pay 55% of the quote to the 'Plumber?' .. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

This is getting more weird by the moment.

I wish to retract my previous statement that I am starting to feel sorry for the OP.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.
In that case, he should get a qualified plumber in to sort out the 'mess'