OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[ShaunCorbs]

B

C

 

[Ric2013]

I would argue it is GOOD to have the tee horizontal. Less of a plug of water to cause induced siphonage if the tee is horizontal. But minimum fall should really be 18mm per metre and I agree you won't have anything near that. I know this under the floor, but I would like the design to be possible to unblock if it blocks, and you'll only be able to access via the traps, so poor design to have the tee there like that.

The tee is designed to flow right to left and accept a branch from the bottom (ups and downs and lefts and rights based on your first picture being pinned to a wall) so it's in wrong. I don't like to see knuckle bends, unless strictly necessary (how will you rod that if it blocks?).

I dislike sharing basin and shower wastes. I have done it, but would not ever do it out of choice.

I have seen worse though, but personally would want it to be 100% correct if it won't be accessible again.

Looks like your plumber has used copper pipe to transition from Hep to Speedfit which is the most correct way of making the transition.

The purpose of inserts (according to a merchant who had spoken to a plastic pipe company rep) is they ensure the pipe is and remains perfectly round. They should always be used (unless you're making a joint that only needs to work for 5 minutes). Not sure how you can tell they are absent without dismantling.

Hots and cold should not be run together unless properly insulated to keep the cold water at a hygienic temperature.

If that were my house, I would want all hot runs lagged, but this would be above the industry standard, so you'd have to ask for this and pay extra.

 

[bambers]

In short, - he isn't a plumber.
Amazed that the "plumber" actually took those photos of that work he did and sent them to you!
Bit like a burglar taking a selfie when stealing your property and then sending you the photo. 🙂
Usually work like that is photographed by the customer to have proof or make complaint to the installer. (Or some of us take photos for hall of shame plumbing work)
I wouldn't want the other work to be completed with same person.

 

[trf0412]

Sorry for the silence. For some reason I stopped receiving email updates, so didn't realise there had been more responses.

Just out of interest, you must have had some thoughts on whether it has been done correctly otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions on here.

Indeed. But my main concern was that the pipe travelling from the shower waste to the sink waste has a fall from the shower to the sink, and I was therefore concerned about the sink waste. But you're saying we can't get a fall from the shower either – that's the bit I don't understand, since there is a fall on that section of the waste pipe. But by the sounds of it I must be missing something. I'm not a plumber, so if I've misunderstood something please could you explain?

Even six inches more waste pipe and an elbow would have improved that situation.

Since I'm not a plumber, could you explain where you would put the extra 6 inches?

I dislike sharing basin and shower wastes. I have done it, but would not ever do it out of choice.

What's the reason for not sharing them - i.e. what are the sorts of problems this could cause?

Looks like your plumber has used copper pipe to transition from Hep to Speedfit which is the most correct way of making the transition.

This either means he's done something right, which is good, or the copper pipe was left there by the plumbers who replaced the boiler and rads.

The purpose of inserts (according to a merchant who had spoken to a plastic pipe company rep) is they ensure the pipe is and remains perfectly round. They should always be used (unless you're making a joint that only needs to work for 5 minutes). Not sure how you can tell they are absent without dismantling.

Yep, no way for me to tell if they've been used. I've a feeling I saw a bag of them, though, so I think he probably used them.

Hots and cold should not be run together unless properly insulated to keep the cold water at a hygienic temperature.

I hadn't thought about this. But is heat-transfer such a big issue with plastic pipes? I guess it's less of an issue than with 2 copper pipes run side-by-side.

 

[trf0412]

Thanks for everyone's responses. Good job I questioned whether the work so far is up to scratch as everyone is in agreement that this could (or should I say will?) give me problems. So, the next step is to ask how to tackle this?

Obviously, when you've agreed for a tradesman to come in and do a job it puts you in a bit of an awkward position. If I call his work into question I doubt he'll be very happy and it will make me worried about him finishing the rest of the work if he feels I've undermined him. If I cut the work short, then there's the issue of how much I should pay him, and the added issue of finding someone else to finish the job off.

And then there's a 3rd option – Would sorting out all the pipework from the floor below be feasible at all? There's already a section of the ceiling plasterboard missing below the bathroom (unrelated to this job) and we'll be having that re-plastered soon, so cutting out a bit section of ceiling to access the bathroom pipework won't be a problem.

Any other ideas about how to handle the situation I'm in?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

 

[trf0412]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

 

[ShaunCorbs]

well that would worrie me to the point of sacking him if hes happy with that hes defo no plumber

 

[trf0412]

Right... sounds like I need to have a chat with him, even if it's an awkward one. Just so I am fully clued up before asking him to rectify things, could someone give me a list of what they would do to put this right? Would the following sort things?

1) Cut out and replace the tee with an elbow (so shower waste is kept separate from basin waste initially)
2) Take basin waste through 2 joists (although this would require drilling 2 more holes) before joining it back in with the shower waste (so that it has a fall on in before it meets the waste coming from shower)
3) Clip pipes to joists

Or would it be best to avoid step 2 by trying to get a fall on the basin waste before it joins up with the shower waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

hope this helps

both can have independent falls and not tied by each others t in position

you could ask him does he have an nvq in plumbing if he doesnt hes a handy man and not a plumber

 

[trf0412]

Yes, that helps a lot - thanks!

Such a simple, elegant solution and one which easily allows the fall on the basin waste to be independent of the fall on the shower waste. (Now I've seen the suggested fix, I'm amazed why he didn't simply do this in the first place?!). However, this will only work if the pipe going across the joists doesn't start so high up as to rule out getting enough fall from the basin... if it does, then I'm not sure what we'll do.

So, in this set-up, would it be right to use the same tee that he already used (i.e. one that would direct the flow from the shower down to the right)?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Doing it correctly is another matter

Should be more than enough might need to slot the joist the basin end but other than that should have a good fall on it

No as you can't unglue the fittings

 

[trf0412]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Hmm, maybe I should just take up floor and do it myself!

might need to slot the joist the basin end

Yes, I thought that might be necessary.

No as you can't unglue the fittings

Hehe! Sorry, I didn't mean reusing the exact same one, I just meant the same design.

 

[Chuck]

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

Tell your plumber that you have had your attention drawn to some defects that need rectifying. Make it clear that either he fixes it, and to a proper standard, or you will get another company who does understand what plumbing installed 'with reasonable skill and care' (use exactly those words) means.

Your only decision, which largely depends on how much you value your own time, is whether to try and get the person who installed the mess in the photographs to fix it or cut your losses and get someone else to do it again right.

I'm old enough to have learned you can't get blood out of a stone. In your circumstances I would write off any sunk costs to experience and get a reputable trader to redo the work to a more appropriate standard.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Also you will need an anti vac trap on the basin

I wouldn't do it my self either plumber does it or he doesn't get paid for the waste pipe simple and if he choose not to change the design of it by by get another plumber in

 

[trf0412]

So, Chuck votes I sack him, Shaun votes I give him a chance to put things right. So far it's a tie!

I'll see how responsive he is to the idea of rectifying things and then guess I'll go from there, as generally speaking he has been quite willing to listen and do what I've asked. Having said that, I should point out that one of the things I asked him to do was reinforce the joists where he was cutting holes - if I hadn't asked him to he wouldn't have done that, so perhaps that's not a good sign either?

Another issue I have is where the pipes clash with the shower trap... instead of re-running the pipes to avoid this, which may have needed another small notch, he chose instead to cut out one massive notch! As it's now covered I can see how deep it goes, but I'd guess from the photo it's easily 50% of the joist height!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep not good upto you tbh do you still trust him if you don't by bt there's the door if you do see if he will listen to your concerns

 

[Ric2013]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

 

[trf0412]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Yep, I've seen them which is why (i) I was so shocked to see what he's done and (ii) I insisted on him reinforcing the holes (no idea how much it will help, but it will certainly be better than nothing).

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

Thanks for this explanation. Very helpful. So, in an ideal world, should each appliance have its own waste which runs all the way to the soil pipe? Or is it ok for them to join up further downstream?

 

[Guitarjon]

Cricky, I was going to write a long winded post about how many things look wrong with those pictures but it's been covered and not fair to bang on about it, especially as it's not the poster doing the work. Certainly no plumber with actually knowledge on regs or qualifications has done any of that. If it is somebody with conpentancy they need reporting and pecious work checking out.