150L Ultrasteel Unvented Cylinder - Water dripping through

[jon2t]

I have a 9 year old Ultrasteel unvented cylinder 150L that has recently had a problem with dripping water through the tundish.

I called a qualified unvented cylinder engineer who replaced the hot water temperature/pressure valve, then the cold water pressure valve & now the expansion vessel.

Unfortunately it is still dripping (water is semi cold) and is baffling the engineer.

Would anyone have any advice for me or him to solve this problem?

I understand its process of elimination & past experiences but there must be a solution.

Many thanks

Jon

 

[Whn1]

Have you tried he pressure reducing valve?

 

[Whn1]

Is the expansion vessel correctly sized?

 

[jon2t]

Thanks for the quick reply guys,

He hasn't replaced the pressure reducing valve yet but said if it was the PRV it would be more of a flow than a drip.

The expansion vessel is a 12L that is recommended by Ultrasteel documents..!!

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Jon
Why did the engineer replace both the safety valves ? was it not possible to loosen the outlet connection from each one to find out which one was causing the problem ??
Also was the expansion vessel full of water or would not hold a charge ??
Will they not come back & fix the problem for you, for nothing, as they presumable have charged for all the others work.
It is not a go at you Jon, just another case that highlights the difference between qualified & experienced, we are all gaining experience as we go, just don't thing you should paying someone who can't fix what you have employed them to, due to their lack of it.

If all the things replaced are not the problem, then there must be an increase in the system pressure from somewhere which is causing the valve to lift, it could be the PRV or an external cross connection but a pressure gauge connected to the system would show the system pressure to confirm either way, I would get an experienced engineer to have a look.
What area are you ?

 

[Whn1]

As chris said there are easy ways to test the components individually, you don't need to change everyone.

 

[jon2t]

Hi Chris,

The guy said the T&P valve is usually the common problem so fitted & got charged £150. It looked fine with no evident signs of scale.

He then came back & changed the Pressure valve which did have scale & he hope that would solve the fault.

He then came back & changed the expansion vessel & pumped it to 3 bar, the old vessel was full of water which he said that the diaphragm had probably split.

It's still dripping after all 3 parts.

I haven't paid for any other parts or labour yet..!!!

I will dispute any labour costs although i can understand to a point the charge for the new parts as long as the price is not inflated.


I agree with you on the qualified & experienced quote....!!!

As a non-qualified plumber you have to trust the company you contact, that’s why i went to a reputable local established firm.

They have been ok & do the work on a Sat where they can but i would like it sorted 🙂


Cheers


I'm in Essex

 

[Whn1]

I think he would have changed the pressure reducing valve as it should be combined with the relief valve.

 

[Whn1]

Back flow from an unbalanced kitchen sink mixer? Just throwing it out there.

 

[chris watkins]

Was the water dripping through Tun dish at the time of his first visit, before he said it was the T&P ? & like wise the second visit ? ("probably split" one push on the schrader valve would tell if it was or wasn't) It is easy to be critical from a far but sometimes when it is basic stuff, I despair, poor or little training I guess.
If you get stuck PM me.

 

[jon2t]

The water dripping was the original fault,

I had a call from the shop below saying there was water dripping from above.

I located it to the area of the unvented cylinder & found that the drip that was coming from the tundish was not dripping from top to bottom but dripping to the side of the tundish & dripping on top of the vessel then onto the floor (just unlucky i guess).

I cleaned the scale in the tundish that made it drip to the side but wanted to stop the drip for good even though not causing a problem to the shop below.

Every time he comes the drip slows down then 30 mins later the same constant drip.

cheers

 

[jon2t]

Hi,

Thanks Chris & whn1 for help on this, ive attached a video clip on you tube (yes sad i know) but thought visual is better than words sometimes.

Not done this before so please let me know if you can see video clip..??

I think you have to copy & paste to the top search bar & not in the google search (i have no idea)...!!!!

youtube.com/watch?v=fnURoNfxYSY&feature=youtu.be

Cheers

 

[Si H]

How water temp to high?? Just a thought!! Faulty cylinder stat?

 

[Whn1]

Temp of the Water through the tundish isn't hot enough for external control probs.

 

[Si H]

Temp of the Water through the tundish isn't hot enough for external control probs.

Thx Whn1 missed that bit on original post!

 

[lame plumber]

if he changed prv and tprv before the expn vssl problem noticed !!! then they could well have failed as they now have dirt in seals. check which one is leaking first and take it from there.

 

[Megaflo-Experts]

Does it drip when the hot water is switched off at the programmer (i.e. water not being heated up)?

Also, if you open a hot tap and leave it running, again does it continue to drip?

Do you know what your incoming water pressure is?

 

[payney1974]

Isnt red for non potable water?

 

[payney1974]

I would say its a unbalanced mixer in the house somewhere or the prv, test the standing pressure at a hot tap if possible?

 

[Mike Jackson]

Isnt red for non potable water?

Yes it is. The vessel for this should be blue or white.

 

[payney1974]

Yes it is. The vessel for this should be blue or white
A qualified plumber wouldnt put a red expansion vessel on DHW would they???? Am I missing something here?

 

[Megaflo-Experts]

The expansion vessel would normally come with the cylinder, so this one may have been replaced at a later date by someone unqualified!

 

[chris watkins]

Good idea with the video Jon, I ask for photos but thats much better. (some of those Hollywood directors better watch out, LOL)
The heating (red) expansion vessel says it all, this guy does not know what he is doing. As others have stated the potable vessels can be lots of different colours but NOT red which is only for use on heating systems (they are a lot cheaper & will not last long).
The grey plastic plug with the cross in the centre which is just below the pressure reducing valve is a gauge port a cheap pressure gauge can be fitted which will tell an engineer quickly what the system pressure is running at.
Do you ever notice a drain smell coming from the cylinder cupboard ??
Only ask because from what I can see, there is no trap fitted (not allowed) & the safety valve discharge waste is connected to 32mm solvent weld plastic waste (not allowed) it then tees into another waste from other appliances (not allowed). All of these are breeches of the Building Reg AD Part G & should be corrected sorry to be the bearer of bad news but then you probably new all that anyway cos the last engineer explained it all ???

Please ask to see the un-vent card or certificate before you let them loose in your home, these things can be dangerous if not installed & maintained correctly !

 

[lbp plg & htg]

I for one cant see clip but that dont mean owt! Is it a direct or indirect cylinder?

 

[lbp plg & htg]

Now i do, vessel is wrong type as previously stated and the orientation isnt the best. That said then others advice needs to be done ie undo the nuts and see which valve is passing (think you siad water lukewarm which should point to the expansion relief valve but a gauge needs attaching the the prv to see what pressure is passing through it first and if 3bar as its set too then exp valve it probably is.

 

[Whn1]

Did he change the components for the exact same ones that were there before?

 

[secret squirrel]

Was the water dripping through Tun dish at the time of his first visit, before he said it was the T&P ? & like wise the second visit ? ("probably split" one push on the schrader valve would tell if it was or wasn't) It is easy to be critical from a far but sometimes when it is basic stuff, I despair, poor or little training I guess.
If you get stuck PM me.

I despair as well! we only have one side of events here, maybe the engineer is highly experienced, maybe he is old school time served, maybe he's done all the tests.

Your quite right, being critical of someone elses work from afar is dangerous and may cause issues between an engineer and a customer. I

The engineer keeps going back to attempt to rectify the fault, he's a professional and not taking the money and running.

Maybe the cylinder has more than one fault!

Has the cylinder been maintained with yearly services?

OK I retract some of what I've written due to seeing the video.

 

[Dan Masey]

Is the immersion heater faulty? Causing it to heat up and drip? Maybe it's stuck on??? Would that cause a drip?

 

[chris watkins]

I despair as well! we only have one side of events here, maybe the engineer is highly experienced, maybe he is old school time served, maybe he's done all the tests.

OK I retract some of what I've written due to seeing the video.

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

 

[payney1974]

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

Maybe an engineer has never been to it????? Food for thought!

 

[secret squirrel]

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

I don't slag off any engineer without being to the job, even then I refrain from doing it, its bad form plain and simple.

The reason I don't run down other peoples work, even when I have seen it is, you were not privvy to the conversation between the customer and the previous engineer, you don't know the relationship between the customer or engineer there are too many variables in this job.

I don't trust what customers say most of the time and to run someone down you don't know is just rude,

I also agree with the another poster you don't know if an engineer has even been.

Its toooooo easy to run down others people work, especially from a distance.

Of course this is only my opinion, please feel free to continue.:ciappa:

 

[jon2t]

Hi Gents,

The 150L direct unvented cylinder was installed about 9 years ago by another engineer (no longer about).

I asked my local established company on varies occasions & another independent plumber to service it over the years but every time they say there is no maintenance on these.

They say if they test (open/close) the hot Temp & Pressure release valve or the cold pressure release valve, scale from inside could cause them to lodge in the valve & leak (a lot like the problem i have). They also tell me if the water doesn’t get hot then it's the immersion heater element so only worry when you get cold water.

This is the advice i get told & it’s not the want of trying to get it serviced every year....!!!

The advice you give about wrong pipe work etc is not something I’ve ever been told about but I’m now worried (thanks lol).

I will question the company about the red vessel they recently change; the original was blue that come with the original cylinder (thanks guys).

The hot temp & pressure relive valve is different to the one he took off, i just thought it was a different make or modified part. In fact at first i thought he put the cold pressure valve on by mistake but it does say T&P valve.

The engineer is only 22 but assures me he is one of the few that are trained on these unvented cylinders. I’m sure he is, but experience may be the problem here.

I will speak to the service director tomorrow to get some answers.

I think I may hang up my film directing boots, as I’ve only just watched it back & sound like someone I’d want to fit lots of unnecessary parts to an unvented cylinder & charge them hundreds….lmao…!!!

 

[Whn1]

Double check they've fitted genuine parts! It's regulation that they do so. You can't go around fitting willy nilly pressure relief valves from the back of your van, even if they are similar. All of us g3 engineers went on a course to get the qualification and we'll all tell you it taught us nothing, experience, dedication and heads in books, manufacturers instructsions is how we roll.

 

[chris watkins]

I don't slag off any engineer without being to the job, even then I refrain from doing it, its bad form plain and simple.

The reason I don't run down other peoples work, even when I have seen it is, you were not privvy to the conversation between the customer and the previous engineer, you don't know the relationship between the customer or engineer there are too many variables in this job.

I don't trust what customers say most of the time and to run someone down you don't know is just rude,

I also agree with the another poster you don't know if an engineer has even been.

Its toooooo easy to run down others people work, especially from a distance.

Of course this is only my opinion, please feel free to continue.:ciappa:

You didn't answer my question conveniently or is it a secret, squirrel ?? I agree with most of your sentiments although not so sure about the "bad form plain & simple" but in this case !!? You know when you really know a subject (it's what you have done/do for a living) & you can read between the lines of what a customer is posting, you can tell plan & simple, that things are not right & with knowing how potentially dangerous these systems are you would not comment ?? I thought that is what we did here ???
Any one who has been on the training course for the Part G (& if it taught you nothing Whn1, can I suggest you find another training centre) would or should know enough to not make the mistakes listed in this post & should not be defended or excused in any way shape or form.

 

[secret squirrel]

I don't read between any lines, something about assumption, I thought this forum is about advising people and pointing people in the right direction not about critising others work.

I don't feel that I need to answer your question about things I'd like to remove from my original post, I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else on this forum.

No-one is disputing how dangerous these systems are or how problematic these can be and advising someone and pointing them in the right direction is an honourable thing to do but slatting another engineer is not honourable and serves no purpose.

As I said this is only my opinion and feel free to continue to have a go at other engineers who are not here to defend there actions or reasons.