4 pumps in our heating system OTT?

[StevenW]

Hi guys,

Recently moved into our house (old 50s police house,4 bed) Been slowly working our way through the previous owners bodge work throughout the house.

Now trying to make heads or tails of he heating system..
The house was extended about 10 or 15 years ago and I think the setup is a bit of a mish mash of the previous system and new.

Its a pressurised, S plan layout system. There is 4 pumps in total.

- 1 on flow out of boiler
- 1 for the downstairs UFH setup.
- 1 on upstairs radiator flow pipe
- 1 on DHW coil in tank.


There is only 1 zone valve on the entire system, on the flow to the upstairs rads, just after the pump.

There is also by-pass loops, one next to both the up rads supply pump and the DHW pump. However one has a gate valve fitted (partially open) and one is just a straight loop from feed to return, with nothing in between. Seems wasteful to me?

There is also NRVs fitted on the output side of the upstairs rads pump and also one on the input side of the DHW pump.

Any help, advice, or even a basic diagram would be fantastic. Seems a bit overkill having a pump on each 'zone', fair enough on the UFH but not the others.
and not having a 2 port motorised valve on 3 of the zones seems wrong, and getting a lot of heat soak into other areas when not needed.
Have a feeling the NRVs could be left over items from a previous heating setup in the past.

Hope the photos work!

cheers

Steve :santa3:

 

[Whyme]

Zoning is actually a very good way of controlling a system and the nrv's are to stop parasitic circulation when the part of the house ya need to heat up doesn't heat the rest via gravity...if that makes sense...i'm sure somebody will be along to explain better..X

 

[stevetheplumber]

not as mad as it seems pumps are generally more reliable than motorised valves you will always have an extra pump with the ufh its obviously quite an old system the relays in the controll box are to keep each electrical circuit seperate
if its working and you dont plan on a total refurb of the house stick with it see how it performs

 

[Best]

I think the same - motorised valves are forever packing up, or jamming, or switching live constantly on to boilers and they cost similar money to the older versions of small heating pumps.
It does look a bit mad though! NRVs sometimes aren't needed unless pumped circuits are joined.

 

[zzzjim]

.......... seems pumps are generally more reliable than motorised valves...

I do like the sound of that
( old boilers wer'nt green but lasted well ! )

 

[StevenW]

The UFH manifold is getting replaced. The current one is a 20+ year old giacomini setup.
The downstairs heating wasn't working when we moved in. Stripped the manifold to find it full solid of of rusty flakes and all the valves for the heating circuits were corroded solid. Managed to free them and flush the circuits under the floor, however no balancing is possible at the minute.
Got a proper thermomix valve to go with new manifold also.

Seems a waste of energy running 2 pumps every time there's a demand on a particular zone?

My plan is to ditch the dated programmer/relay setup and replace with a 3 zone programmer from RWC.

Also thinking ditch the individual pumps and NRVs in the loft (in first photo) and replace with a 2 port valve for each zone.

Also thinking about removing the gate valve on the bypass and fitting an auto-bypass valve.

Would that bring things into the 21st century?

thanks again guys

cheers
Steve

 

[Ermintrude]

You will need a bigger pump.

You will need to check that the boiler gets flow rates through it with only one pump and an auto bypass.

 

[StevenW]

The boiler is a Triancogas 25/45. Also 20+ years old! A job for the warmer months.

 

[Ermintrude]

Well it was a good boiler. Can u run pipework for each "zone" back to boiler area? If so fit a low loss headder from Worcester £160 and a pump or two and some weather comp. or upgrade boiler and fit the same.

 

[StevenW]

This is a sketch of the layout of the system at the moment. 3 T rule not been used?

 

[Ermintrude]

 

[tamz]

3 T rule not been used?

Why would it be? No need for the so called 3 t rule on that system. Try to understand basic principles of what your reading up on on the internet and why.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Without seeing an electrical diagram alongside, its hard to judge, but I can't actually see why that system couldn't work. It could probably be simplified, but that doesnt make it wrong.

 

[dancinplumba]

Just looked at diagram seems OK, would get rid of two port, why is it there ? Put auto by pass in

 

[happyflyer]

I can see there is a bypass return to the boiler so boiler flow rate should be OK, but Ermi suggestion is best if you can get all the pipework back to the boiler
and use a Low loss header, you need to get that UFH under control before you do anything and some frost protection in the roof void for all that pipe work
if it freezes up you will be in big trouble, does all that pipework need to be up there or can it be re-routed, I take it the hot water cylinder may be up there???

 

[StevenW]

Why would it be? No need for the so called 3 t rule on that system. Try to understand basic principles of what your reading up on on the internet and why.

Thankyou.

You see that's why I have joined this forum.I am picking up things here and there after searching, but not sure about them and their relevance to my setup. Hence the question mark? at the end.

 

[StevenW]

Without seeing an electrical diagram alongside, its hard to judge, but I can't actually see why that system couldn't work. It could probably be simplified, but that doesnt make it wrong.

Thanks for your input. It does all work and the house is warm and there is hot water whenever we need it.
Just wanted to bring things up to date if possible and if something is incorrect, make it right. As the guy that owned the house before made a real pigs ear out of a lot of things in this house.


I am unable to route returns back to nearer the boiler, as all new floor boards and new ceilings underneath now.


With regards to the bypass(s)- one has a gate valve to limit flow, other is straight through 22mm with no restriction. Would it be worth keeping the 2 and having 2 auto bypass valves fitted? Or just one with an auto bypass is sufficient?


Please excuse me if my questions are daft or obvious to you guys.


Thanks again
Steve

 

[StevenW]

Happy flyer- your right, the water tank is up in the roof space. It's a very new looking kingspan installation, a good size too. So planning to stick with it.
I agree. Pipe work looks vulnerable in current location with very little protection from the cold at the minute.
Will be fitting new UFH manifold along with a TF1 filter this week.

 

[happyflyer]

Steve,

A frost thermostat would be good in the roof space, might just need a coat of looking at where you are going to wire it in.

 

[Ermintrude]

Fit a Magnaclean pro 2 or similar instead of TF1

 

[StevenW]

Fit a Magnaclean pro 2 or similar instead of TF1

Ok, Why do you say that? Aren't they doing the same thing?

 

[Ermintrude]

Yes but driving a mondeo is very different to driving an Austin allegro

 

[Best]

Yes but driving a mondeo is very different to driving an Austin allegro

Both aren't babe magnets though! :smile:

 

[StevenW]

So why is one better than the other? There seems to be split opinion from what I've read.
I got the TF1 for peanuts on eBay as the seller put it under a really poor listing name. £41 delivered brand new.

 

[happyflyer]

Steve,

I don't think it matters what you install, if you have bought a cleaner for that price then you are lucky, the principle is simple and they all work the same way,
a very powerful magnet in placed in the main circuit back to the boiler and material that is suspended in the water with magnetic properties will stick to it,
the particles need to be suspended in the water, the cleaner will not move debris that is sat in the bottom of radiators etc.

When you first install it you may find loads of carp on the magnet but as time goes on it will get cleaner and cleaner.

Good luck with it, you will need to make sure you fit it in the right configuration, look at the instructions, the TF1 is nice in one respect there is a drain on the bottom so you can drain out all the water to add a full change of dosing chemical.

Engineers will have their own opinion I am like Ermi I like the looks of the Magnaclean its not as big and bulky, get it fitted and start to get the carp out!

Good Luck

 

[happyflyer]

Yes but driving a mondeo is very different to driving an Austin allegro

You are not that old that you ever drove an Allegro, if you did, what shape was the steering wheel.... I have had both and there is a few years of technology
in between so that was a carp comparison....:001_9898:

Happy New Year Ermi

 

[PhoenixServices]

Would agree with ermi. Magnaclean personally as had problems with Tf1s leaking. With regards to cleaners watch out for the cheap own brand stuff. As far as I can work out there are no standards on cleaners.

 

[happyflyer]

Would agree with ermi. Magnaclean personally as had problems with Tf1s leaking. With regards to cleaners watch out for the cheap own brand stuff. As far as I can work out there are no standards on cleaners.

Only engineers installing these on a daily basis like you would know this about leaks etc so its good you point this out, I installed and Adey at home and not one problem with it.
You might be right about standards for the product, not even a European one hey, how they missed this one I will never know, there's still time!!!

 

[StevenW]

Cheers guys for your views and opinions.

To be honest, read several threads about all the filters, some sware by one, some others, some say one leaks and done say the other does..

I got the TF1 compact so not quite as bulky unit. I'll fit it, see how it goes. If it leaks then I'll change it. It was so cheap that I'm willing to give it a go.


Off on a tangent here..
Do you guys think it's worth fitting one of these Grundfos Alpha 2 pumps on my upstairs 'zone' which is only Radiators, with 9/10 having TRV4s fitted. Maybe save a bit of energy?


Cheers
Happy New Year
Steve

 

[Ermintrude]

Won't save the cost of the pump in 10 years mate

 

[Ray Stafford]

Ok, Why do you say that? Aren't they doing the same thing?

Yes but driving a mondeo is very different to driving an Austin allegro

This makes me chuckle.

The difference between a Ford Mondeo and an Austin Allegro is nothing compared with the difference between walking and driving.

For any non-expert reading this thread - heres the important thing: Ensure that your GSR engineer fits a magnetic filter to your system. What make of filter is of trivial importance compared to having ANY filter - its like a diver questioning which brand of oxygen cylinder he has.

Sure, if you have plenty of money, and time on your hands, and nothing better to do - you might like to worry about the specifics. You sad, sad, dude.

 

[Whyme]

I dont get the last paragraph ray. Why's he sad.

 

[happyflyer]

Like, Ray says as long as its got a magnet in it, it matters not what the label is on the product.

I would take up issue with him on the diving, divers don't breath oxygen and here it does matter what the label is on the bottle, comes from your welding days Ray..

Just fit a mag-filter or any dam magnetic filter, we pay far too much attention to what we think is the best, I don't suppose for one minute that filter manufactures are
struggling to sell their products because they are crap, price to installer is perhaps top of the list for reason to purchase, if all the filters are similar in price, then what the easiest
to install will come next.

 

[Taffman]

3t rule?

 

[StevenW]

Looking at my current setup sketch on previous page..

There is two bypass' off the main flow to the return.
-One is a straight through 22mm short circuit and the other is a partially open gate valve.

Can I replace these with a single 22mm with an auto bypass valve fitted between?

thanks
Steve

 

[Ray Stafford]

I dont get the last paragraph ray. Why's he sad.

Because members of the public who worry about the first pass extraction rate of a magnetic filter, or indeed whether the o-rings get sticky after a few years, should spend more time on the fun things in life!

Its bad enough that we think about it, and we are paid to!