Advice please on an unvented cylinder

[Robsterno1]

Firstly hello, i did a quick search and wasn't sure whether this should be in here or the central heating section so if i've got it wrong i apologies!

We are looking to replace our current vented system with an unvented indirect 210l cylinder to replace the current pump used for two deluge showers and the bath. Main reason for change is the noise and due to the way it was installed the pump struggles to provide the pressure. Its worth adding we have great cold water mains pressure.

So we've been looking at numerous cylinders and the prices vary greatly! I have seen a Sapphire cylinder which i believe are made by Heatrae Sadia but maybe someone could confirm that? this cylinder is cheap in comparison so wondered if anyone has any experience as to whether these are any good? my concern is i dont want to purchase something because its cheaper and it end up not being fit for purpose, but on the same note dont want to spend more if it is not required...

Greatful for any advice for alternative options to consider. Thanks in advance.

 

[townfanjon]

Sorry dont know anything about sapphire cylinder , one of the best cylinders out there is a Tribune , an ultrasteel ( cheaper ) is a tribune with different badges.
IMO of course

 

[Robsterno1]

Hi thank you for the reply.

I've taken a look at what you recommended thank you and will certainly keep them in mind the ultrasteel works out around the £570 mark whereas the Sapphire is around the £420 mark. I'm a firm believer that generally you pay for what you get but if i am correct that it is a Heatrae Sadia Premier plus are these not a good brand?

As i say open to any suggestions. Thanks

 

[townfanjon]

No they are ok, Premier plus !!

 

[Chuck]

my concern is i dont want to purchase something because its cheaper and it end up not being fit for purpose, but on the same note dont want to spend more if it is not required...

Are you aware that unvented DHW systems are tightly regulated and you need an engineer who is qualified 'G3 unvented' to install the cylinder? You should get two or three local firms to quote for the work and discuss the pros and cons with them.

 

[Robsterno1]

Are you aware that unvented DHW systems are tightly regulated and you need an engineer who is qualified 'G3 unvented' to install the cylinder? You should get two or three local firms to quote for the work and discuss the pros and cons with them.

Hi Yes I am, I'm not intending to fit it myself I have a friend that is a qualified installer and has his own business. He doesn't mind whether i get one myself or he can provide one. He suggested a Joule, but the Sapphire is cheaper hence the reason for me trying to understand if they are going to fulfill the purpose.

Thanks

 

[Robsterno1]

No they are ok, Premier plus !!

Hi Townfanjon, thank you again for the reply. Could i just ask you please, so assuming i can get confirmation that the Sapphire is in fact the premier plus from Heatrae Sadia then are you saying this should be a good purchase?

Thanks

 

[Chalked]

Big differences between the cheap, mid range and best.
Some of the cheapest are made of steel, which is then enamelled. These can get pin holed very easily.
Also the cheaper end have poor recovery times, as they have smaller coils.
ACV and Joule are among the best.
Premier plus and Rm are fully stainless and have a good pressure reducing set and expansion vessel.

 

[Robsterno1]

Big differences between the cheap, mid range and best.
Some of the cheapest are made of steel, which is then enamelled. These can get pin holed very easily.
Also the cheaper end have poor recovery times, as they have smaller coils.
ACV and Joule are among the best.
Premier plus and Rm are fully stainless and have a good pressure reducing set and expansion vessel.

Hi Chalked, I cant believe how helpful everyone is on here its great! thank you for your reply.

So do you think for the extra £150 the Joule would perform better than the Sapphire branded premier plus?

Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Joule or gledhill yes worth the extra

 

[townfanjon]

Hi Townfanjon, thank you again for the reply. Could i just ask you please, so assuming i can get confirmation that the Sapphire is in fact the premier plus from Heatrae Sadia then are you saying this should be a good purchase?

Thanks

Honestly cant say , but what has happened over the last few years is the manufacturers have their flagship cylinder and then also make a budget cylinder as well

 

[Robsterno1]

Joule or gledhill yes worth the extra

Hi ShaunCorbs, thank you for the reply. I think you have answered my question then.

Honestly cant say , but what has happened over the last few years is the manufacturers have their flagship cylinder and then also make a budget cylinder as well

Oh I think I see what you are saying. To me it looked identical other than the premier has 30 years warranty and the sapphire has 10 years, same dimensions, stainless steel etc but i assume what your saying is that they’re probably not made of the same material

 

[Welder]

Hi Yes I am, I'm not intending to fit it myself I have a friend that is a qualified installer and has his own business. He doesn't mind whether i get one myself or he can provide one. He suggested a Joule, but the Sapphire is cheaper hence the reason for me trying to understand if they are going to fulfill the purpose.

Thanks

That sends me a warning shot. If he's fully competent, then he should be advising you on an appropriate cylinder and indeed whether your property is suitable. Suggest you find someone with a lot more nouse than your pal and get some professional advice. We simply cannot do that as we can't measure and assess suitability - especially with your 'deluge' system.

Good luck.

 

[Robsterno1]

That sends me a warning shot. If he's fully competent, then he should be advising you on an appropriate cylinder and indeed whether your property is suitable. Suggest you find someone with a lot more nouse than your pal and get some professional advice. We simply cannot do that as we can't measure and assess suitability - especially with your 'deluge' system.

Good luck.

Hi YorkshireDave, I don't wish to come across rude and ungrateful for the advice but I am a little confused by your reasons for the animosity and sarcasm? Is deluge the incorrect terminology?

My friend is more than competent and as previously stated he has advised a Joule cylinder, he has also said that although he has never heard of the sapphire cylinder if it is indeed a heatrae Sadia that I think I have read somewhere then he thinks that would be sufficient as well.

I have come on to a forum like this merely for a second opinion, some friendly advice and to weigh up whether the cost saving of the sapphire cylinder over something like the joule would be worth it in the long run, or whether the penny pinching would provide an underperforming system and I apologies if this has offended you in some way?

Thanks.

 

[king of pipes]

I am with Shuan on this one Gledhill or joule I have 2 to do in the near future and am planning on using the Gledhill I had a quote on them on a trade day at my local supplier and they were very competitive , Heatrea are ok bud beware the warranty may not be honoured I had a pin holed shell on a 10year old megaflo supposed to be 25years on the shell wouldn't do anything about it so since then I have not fitted them . Cheers kop

 

[Knappers]

I'd look at the recovery times and always go for stainless as @Chalked said enameled cylinders are trouble.
Also some cylinders say in manual that they need de-scaling annually which isn't economical and i'm sure it's just a way for manufacturer to get away with not honouring the guarantee.
30 years is a good guarantee for a cylinder and might be usefull, on the other hand if you need a 10 year guarantee on a stainless cylinder then you should be very worried about year 11,12,13....

 

[Robsterno1]

Thank you for all the replies they have been very helpful.

I will need to speak to my friend and find out which Joule cylinder he was recommending as they do one with 10 years and one with 25 years warranty from what i can see, but from the responses i have had I think the general consensus is no one has heard of or used the Sapphire (which isnt a good sign) and the Joule brand has come up a number of times.

Thanks

 

[clemda1]

you mentioned great water pressure!
Has this actually been checked? Pressure is not the only important thing with the set up you’re suggesting. Flow rates are! Likely incoming main was piped up in 15mm/ to feed a tank. Are you confident that when the new cylinder is fitted there will be sufficient flow rates to adequately supply the appliamces in question?
You need 18-20l per min.

 

[Robsterno1]

you mentioned great water pressure!
Has this actually been checked? Pressure is not the only important thing with the set up you’re suggesting. Flow rates are! Likely incoming main was piped up in 15mm/ to feed a tank. Are you confident that when the new cylinder is fitted there will be sufficient flow rates to adequately supply the appliamces in question?
You need 18-20l per min.

Hi,

Thank you for the reply, no it hasn't been checked yet and you're correct it is 15mm from the incoming feed to the tank.

The flow rate out the upstairs taps seems very fast / strong out of modern taps that require minimum 1 bar but my friend needs to come found and check the pressure and that the boiler (suprema 50) are both suitable.

I was going to do the bucket test but I may as well let him check it properly, although I don't foresee an issue.

Thanks

 

[clemda1]

Again pressure is a little bit of a red herring in my opinion. Most dwellings will get at least 1bar coming into the property. But you could have 20bar if the flow rate is being restricted enough the high pressure will only last for a few secs when multiple outlets are I use.

Get your friend to test the water flow rate from the cold pipe connection that is going to feed the cylinder (before the ball/float valve) and also carry out a working test (so with other mains cold taps open (kitchen sink cold tap ) testing from any other point may yield a false positive as it is from this point that you’ll feed the hot supply. As stated most invented cylinder advise on 18-20l/min