Approximate cost of a re-plumb

[Maitri]

Hi I posted a long and sorry story a few weeks ago about our new build plumbing. House is nearly 3 years old, problems with plumbing across the estate, how did the industry ever allow plastic pipe? We had a chap here from Wessex Water and he says the industry HATES the stuff, so why is it being used ? OK there is the cost but why allow builders of new property to cut corners and leave the purchaser liable? I didn't know anything about plastic pipe until after I moved in, I bought a new build as I am near retirement and wanted to avoid expensive maintenance problems, I now see how much of a joke that was!! Builder didn't pay plumber, plumber walked out cutting his radiators off the walls so plumbing on last 6 houses completed by cowboys I have been told. System wasn't pressure tested and when it was connected to supply leaked like a sieve.

OK so my house is badly plumbed, recently found out that the builder had to re-plumb in the first 6 months the first house on the estate to be sold as there was a leak below floor level which they couldn't track down. I am now really depressed, after I moved in (2nd purchaser) I found that every radiator in the house was leaking. I have also found out since I purchased that there were two floods before I purchased and since moving in I have had water down wall from bath (plug outlet broken on fitting and just gave way), I have had repeated leaks in bathrooms and my boiler packed up in January and Domestic & General refused a repair because they said it had not been commissioned from new (full of sludge & swarf). Been back to NHBC who have been back to builder but getting nowhere now trying a solicitor but despite consumer law and "fit for purpose" etc not looking hopeful. Neighbours have all had floods for various reasons and most people seem to have problems with boilers losing pressure. As the Wessex Water man said, the problem with having plastic pipe and joints that are not accessible is that it is often impossible to track a leak and difficult if not impossible to gain access to try to do so. The first thing he looked for when he came to the property was a manifold, he said something about all joints should be accessible but is it law?

So can you answer my Q's please :

1. consumer law speaks about 'durability' so how long should plumbing last to be seen as 'fit for purpose' and 'durable' given that plumbing use to last a lifetime? Does anyone offer guarantees on their plumbing work ? Or do you tell customers you will fix leaks for 2 years after which customer may require a replumb if there is a leak below floor level that cannot be traced ! So how come builders and the NHBC can get away with completely shoddy workmansip and the consumer has no redress?

2. My boiler has not been used since January when the Domestic & General engineer refused a repair saying the system cannot have been commissioned. 2 weeks after the engineer had visited the boiler started to leak and we had a bowl of water every day until the system was empty. We are concerned the boiler is now just sitting there rusting, will the water emptying from the boiler and the boiler just being left to sit there be damaging the boiler?

3.If the worst comes to the worst how much would it cost to re-plumb small 3 bed property with copper? Of course my problem is that I had oak floors laid before I heard the nightmare stories of plastic pipe! This is a timber framed property would there be any problems with soldering copper ?

4. Not sure what problems there will now be with our 3 year old boiler (3 years old in July ), or if the radiators have rusted due to the system not being commissioned, so if we had to have new radiators and a boiler how much more would that cost?

I know estimates are just that, but I am losing sleep at night worrying about what I am going to do and what this is going to cost. I just can't believe I am having to ask these Q's about a 3 year old system, who could possibly think it is acceptable to need a re-plumb in 30 years let alone 10, 5 or in the case of Nos 43 - 6 months!!!

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

 

[marsaday]

firstly, get some inhibitor in your system, i doubt there is any. if the water is black then prob no inhibitor. If the water has all come out as you say, then this is not a problem, but i think you will have water in the rads and this is where most corrosion takes place.

plastic is good, but depends on the person. i prefer copper because in 20 yrs time i reckon plastic will start perishing (seals, not plastic).

I am putting in a new heating system on a 2 bed and the cost for the copper is probably going to be £200 for all the bits. So i reckon you will pay £1k for someone to change over to copper (4 days at £200 ???).

I am a mini landlord so i do most of the work myself and i am not a plumber, but just my views. i am sure a more experienced person will be along.

 

[so-solar]

In my honest opinion........................ You probably would not get alot of change from £2500

 

[SimonG]

I was going to say a 1000 was very very optimistic, cost me 225 + vat for a bundle of 22 and 15 last week, its gone up again. Even if you piped up the heating in 10mm copper, its more expensive than 15.

Its difficult to say without seeing, but I think so-solar is nearer the mark, especially with them oak floors.

 

[Maitri]

Hi guys thanks for your responses, is that £2500 for labour and materials or just labour for a re-plumb in copper not including boiler or radiators? I guess I would have to take all the oak flooring and vinyl in the kitchen up but plumber would saw through the chip board? So I would then have the cost of replacing 1 year old flooring on top of that, oak flooring is T&G !

Bath Timber Frame - Timber frame for commercial or residential construction
You can see in the 5th picture the construction of the floor which is made up of concrete joists and kind of wooden boxes which presumably makes running copper pipe more difficult than in traditional open spaces below floorboards as the joist would need to be drilled and can joists simply be drilled or would that be a structural engineer needed as well? Upstairs, can that be done from downstairs via ceiling so would I then have the cost of new ceilings as well? Would I need to empty the house ? Just really trying to get this clear in my head.

 

[PlumbersMate]

where do you live maitri? perhaps someone from the board could come and give u a genuine estimate. good luck

 

[so-solar]

I think you need to get a plumber to come round and talk you through the seriousness of this job, sorry to say, but this job would be nothing more than an absolute nightmare,

 

[Maitri]

And nightmares cost money to put right don't they which is why I can't believe there isn't any come back for the purchaser of a property that will not be 3 years old until July, but I can't live with the worry all the time of constant leaks and the thought of it all needing replacing as soon as there is a leak below floor level. I would just prefer if at all possible to borrow some money now and get this sorted so I will not have the worry of this for years. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[WaterTight]

Doesn't sound to me like your problem is plastic. Your problem is bad workmanship. There are plenty of experienced, trustworthy and knowledgable plumbers who install plastic pipes. But they do it correctly. Do you really need a total replumb or do you need a genuine skilled tradesman to look at all your little problems (which amass to a large one) individually and bring faulty work up to standard?

Yes it might well mean unburying pipes in floors and god knows what else but I don't think you should get too hung up on plastic being the cause. Copper joints leak too.

 

[sparky]

Job would be a nightmare in copper on a finished property. The floors are probably in sheets! Joints would need coupling every couple of joists! cant normally run lenghts of copper in because of joist spacing. Drops down walls will b plastic for rads and fixtures. Prob talking ceilings down and for drops, the plastic pipework will b run through studs behind boarding! Good luck. Manifolds with accessible joints totally impracticable for plumbing a full system. imho.

 

[Maitri]

Yeh guess my concern is why the builder completely re-plumbed a neighbours house because a leak couldn't be tracked. As I am open to suggestions continuing on from your idea is it possible that flooring etc could come up and the piping re-fitted in such a way that there are no joints below floors that are not easily accessible? How about a manifold or something? I assume the pipe lasts it is the joints that are the problem? Someone on this forum said something like: "I can show you plumbing that is 200 years old and never leaked can you show me plastic plumbing that is 20 years old and not leaking?" Someone else said: "Copper and solder last, the grab rings mechanically fail, o-rings perish." So ultimately they will need replacing within 20 years I assume but that would not be such a big deal if the pipework was accessible?

 

[Maitri]

Hi you posted this just as I posted asking about a manifold. Can you explain what you mean by "manifolds with accessible joints totally inpracticable for plumbing a full system"? Just a thought, someone said that in Germany all pipework is behind wide skirting how possible is that, that the pipework could go round the wall and be hidden behind skirting?

 

[so-solar]

have you contacted the nhbc? or have you contacted your insurance company? I take it you exhausted all options contacting builder? Or even try a no win no fee solicitor not sure if they do this type of work but worth a shout!

 

[sparky]

Prob possible to re-plumb in the way you say using piping surface and boxing in after or trunking for pipe drops. Would do this in copper. All joints could then be accessible by removing boxing panel. As others have posted though every new build site ive worked on has been plastic under floor and drops with copper tails. All surface pipework copper. Once pressure tested never had a problem. If you have a leak youd see a damp patch on ceiling so wouldn't b hard to find but would need to cut a hole in floor to rectify. Manifolds being accessible on new builds? Due to pipe runs in all directions for heating and plumbing fixtures, joists etc. underfloors upstairs requires lots of joints to b made! Changing from plastic to copper in walls requires jointing. You cant possibly have access to all thes these joints! I can see where youre coming from most builders and plumbing companies on new build use plastic with very few problems. Is it really worth all the hassle and expense to change!

 

[Maitri]

Hi Sparky "once pressure tested never had a problem" for how long? It is leaks below floor level that is the problem, guy from Wessex Water said how do you know you have a leak? Well one way you might know you have a leak is if the boiler loses pressure, which is why Nos 43 was re-plumbed. Part of the problem here is that the piping to rads is MLC pipe and plumber said it is hard to get a sound connection which is why he said he always uses copper above floor. So if manifolds and accessible joints are out of the question are we saying that all people in new builds will have to have all their floors dug up every time they have a leak in the system with possible re-plumbs within 20 if not 10 or less years?

 

[sparky]

Manufacturers normally give 25 year guarantee. After that who knows, as people have said has plastic pipe been used for the last 20 years?

 

[Gray0689]

A manifold would be used so that plastic can be used without any joints under floors ie one run of pipe to each rad the only joints there would be is at the manifold as said before your problem is not the plastic pipe it is with the workmanship you really need a plumber to come in and check the hole system if the developer is still in business you need to get a solicitor on to it

 

[Maitri]

Hi so -solar, yeh Builder remains liable for problems notified in the first 2 years, but NHBC interpret that as liable only for specific leaks that were not repaired, not even liable for yet another leak from the pipe that was repaired! Reading through consumer law this doesn't actually seem legal to limit consumers rights in this way. Consumer law is quite clear when it comes to 'fit for purpose' 'durable' etc etc and how can a plumbing heating system that has leaked from the start and a boiler that clearly was never commissioned etc been seen as being 'fit for purpose" etc.. And how long should plumbing last? Insurer isn't going to want to cover shoddy workmanship, D&G would not cover repair on boiler and not sure buildings insurer will cover floods due to shoddy workmanship. So yes gone to solicitor via Buildings Insurance cover for legal fees but solicitors are reluctant to stick their necks out and call the NHBC to task even though building regulations were via the NHBC and clearly the plumbing on the estate should not have been passed as 'fit for purpose'. So I am just trying to think about my options in case the solicitor drops the bombshell that he doesn't think I have a 51% chance of winning despite having a plumbing/ heating system that nobody would want to sign up for if I tried to sell my property and I would not have signed up for if I knew then when I know now!

 

[stevetheplumber]

wessex water have some cheek critcising plastic when every water company in the land are replacing their cast iron mains with plastic

 

[Nat]

On all the new build I've ever worked on never put any paperwork in the floor (screed) except for gas main. All plastic paperwork is put in dropped ceilings and then rad drops are inside the walls. In houses you might find paperwork underfloor upstairs but then if there was a leak you'd see it in the ceiling downstairs.

In my experience plastic pipe and fittings are great if used properly. The new hep2o stuff is guaranteed for 50 years so who knows how long it will actually last.

 

[so-solar]

if the boiler was never commissioned and the nhbc did a c.m.l on the property then they are liable, part of the nhbc c.m.l inspection consists of the boiler commissioning paperwork being checked, also request a first fix pressure test certificate from the builder, I think you should put a little more pressure on the nhbc to be honest,

 

[sparky]

As above, should have a first fix pressure test cert and gas cert and a boiler commissioning cert. If you have an unvented cylinder you should have a cert for that too. As nat said, only ever run gas in the screed on sites ive done.

 

[Maitri]

Gosh you guys are amazingly helpful. What is a c.m.l ? Is this something we can request from NHBC? NHBC claims agent when he was here asked the builder where a copy of the Benchmark certificate can be found but there doesn't seem to be copies kept is that correct? NHBC agent was surprised that copies not kept. At least 4 people in the road have not got a Benchmark Certificate. Should the builder be able to provide a first fix pressure test cert? Can he make it up? We were told that the system was not pressure tested before floors ceilings etc went down. Really couldn't put more pressure on builder or NHBC , builder has another 15 properties to sell at least half still haven't got NHBC Certs you would think that alone would be incentive enough to sort the Phase 1 problems wouldn't you not just be extremely rude and offensive to us all.

 

[sparky]

A copy of the benchmark and gas safety cert should have been in your handover pack. The first fix pressure test certs are given to the builder and a copy to the plumbing company. The benchmark will have details such as if the system had been cleansed and inhibitor added. Hope this helps.

 

[sparky]

NHBC normally wouldnt hand over the property without having the relevant benchmarks and certs.