Approximate cost of a re-plumb

[Maitri]

Hi I posted a long and sorry story a few weeks ago about our new build plumbing. House is nearly 3 years old, problems with plumbing across the estate, how did the industry ever allow plastic pipe? We had a chap here from Wessex Water and he says the industry HATES the stuff, so why is it being used ? OK there is the cost but why allow builders of new property to cut corners and leave the purchaser liable? I didn't know anything about plastic pipe until after I moved in, I bought a new build as I am near retirement and wanted to avoid expensive maintenance problems, I now see how much of a joke that was!! Builder didn't pay plumber, plumber walked out cutting his radiators off the walls so plumbing on last 6 houses completed by cowboys I have been told. System wasn't pressure tested and when it was connected to supply leaked like a sieve.

OK so my house is badly plumbed, recently found out that the builder had to re-plumb in the first 6 months the first house on the estate to be sold as there was a leak below floor level which they couldn't track down. I am now really depressed, after I moved in (2nd purchaser) I found that every radiator in the house was leaking. I have also found out since I purchased that there were two floods before I purchased and since moving in I have had water down wall from bath (plug outlet broken on fitting and just gave way), I have had repeated leaks in bathrooms and my boiler packed up in January and Domestic & General refused a repair because they said it had not been commissioned from new (full of sludge & swarf). Been back to NHBC who have been back to builder but getting nowhere now trying a solicitor but despite consumer law and "fit for purpose" etc not looking hopeful. Neighbours have all had floods for various reasons and most people seem to have problems with boilers losing pressure. As the Wessex Water man said, the problem with having plastic pipe and joints that are not accessible is that it is often impossible to track a leak and difficult if not impossible to gain access to try to do so. The first thing he looked for when he came to the property was a manifold, he said something about all joints should be accessible but is it law?

So can you answer my Q's please :

1. consumer law speaks about 'durability' so how long should plumbing last to be seen as 'fit for purpose' and 'durable' given that plumbing use to last a lifetime? Does anyone offer guarantees on their plumbing work ? Or do you tell customers you will fix leaks for 2 years after which customer may require a replumb if there is a leak below floor level that cannot be traced ! So how come builders and the NHBC can get away with completely shoddy workmansip and the consumer has no redress?

2. My boiler has not been used since January when the Domestic & General engineer refused a repair saying the system cannot have been commissioned. 2 weeks after the engineer had visited the boiler started to leak and we had a bowl of water every day until the system was empty. We are concerned the boiler is now just sitting there rusting, will the water emptying from the boiler and the boiler just being left to sit there be damaging the boiler?

3.If the worst comes to the worst how much would it cost to re-plumb small 3 bed property with copper? Of course my problem is that I had oak floors laid before I heard the nightmare stories of plastic pipe! This is a timber framed property would there be any problems with soldering copper ?

4. Not sure what problems there will now be with our 3 year old boiler (3 years old in July ), or if the radiators have rusted due to the system not being commissioned, so if we had to have new radiators and a boiler how much more would that cost?

I know estimates are just that, but I am losing sleep at night worrying about what I am going to do and what this is going to cost. I just can't believe I am having to ask these Q's about a 3 year old system, who could possibly think it is acceptable to need a re-plumb in 30 years let alone 10, 5 or in the case of Nos 43 - 6 months!!!

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

 

[marsaday]

firstly, get some inhibitor in your system, i doubt there is any. if the water is black then prob no inhibitor. If the water has all come out as you say, then this is not a problem, but i think you will have water in the rads and this is where most corrosion takes place.

plastic is good, but depends on the person. i prefer copper because in 20 yrs time i reckon plastic will start perishing (seals, not plastic).

I am putting in a new heating system on a 2 bed and the cost for the copper is probably going to be £200 for all the bits. So i reckon you will pay £1k for someone to change over to copper (4 days at £200 ???).

I am a mini landlord so i do most of the work myself and i am not a plumber, but just my views. i am sure a more experienced person will be along.

 

[so-solar]

In my honest opinion........................ You probably would not get alot of change from £2500

 

[SimonG]

I was going to say a 1000 was very very optimistic, cost me 225 + vat for a bundle of 22 and 15 last week, its gone up again. Even if you piped up the heating in 10mm copper, its more expensive than 15.

Its difficult to say without seeing, but I think so-solar is nearer the mark, especially with them oak floors.

 

[Maitri]

Hi guys thanks for your responses, is that £2500 for labour and materials or just labour for a re-plumb in copper not including boiler or radiators? I guess I would have to take all the oak flooring and vinyl in the kitchen up but plumber would saw through the chip board? So I would then have the cost of replacing 1 year old flooring on top of that, oak flooring is T&G !

Bath Timber Frame - Timber frame for commercial or residential construction
You can see in the 5th picture the construction of the floor which is made up of concrete joists and kind of wooden boxes which presumably makes running copper pipe more difficult than in traditional open spaces below floorboards as the joist would need to be drilled and can joists simply be drilled or would that be a structural engineer needed as well? Upstairs, can that be done from downstairs via ceiling so would I then have the cost of new ceilings as well? Would I need to empty the house ? Just really trying to get this clear in my head.

 

[PlumbersMate]

where do you live maitri? perhaps someone from the board could come and give u a genuine estimate. good luck

 

[so-solar]

I think you need to get a plumber to come round and talk you through the seriousness of this job, sorry to say, but this job would be nothing more than an absolute nightmare,

 

[Maitri]

And nightmares cost money to put right don't they which is why I can't believe there isn't any come back for the purchaser of a property that will not be 3 years old until July, but I can't live with the worry all the time of constant leaks and the thought of it all needing replacing as soon as there is a leak below floor level. I would just prefer if at all possible to borrow some money now and get this sorted so I will not have the worry of this for years. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[WaterTight]

Doesn't sound to me like your problem is plastic. Your problem is bad workmanship. There are plenty of experienced, trustworthy and knowledgable plumbers who install plastic pipes. But they do it correctly. Do you really need a total replumb or do you need a genuine skilled tradesman to look at all your little problems (which amass to a large one) individually and bring faulty work up to standard?

Yes it might well mean unburying pipes in floors and god knows what else but I don't think you should get too hung up on plastic being the cause. Copper joints leak too.

 

[sparky]

Job would be a nightmare in copper on a finished property. The floors are probably in sheets! Joints would need coupling every couple of joists! cant normally run lenghts of copper in because of joist spacing. Drops down walls will b plastic for rads and fixtures. Prob talking ceilings down and for drops, the plastic pipework will b run through studs behind boarding! Good luck. Manifolds with accessible joints totally impracticable for plumbing a full system. imho.

 

[Maitri]

Yeh guess my concern is why the builder completely re-plumbed a neighbours house because a leak couldn't be tracked. As I am open to suggestions continuing on from your idea is it possible that flooring etc could come up and the piping re-fitted in such a way that there are no joints below floors that are not easily accessible? How about a manifold or something? I assume the pipe lasts it is the joints that are the problem? Someone on this forum said something like: "I can show you plumbing that is 200 years old and never leaked can you show me plastic plumbing that is 20 years old and not leaking?" Someone else said: "Copper and solder last, the grab rings mechanically fail, o-rings perish." So ultimately they will need replacing within 20 years I assume but that would not be such a big deal if the pipework was accessible?

 

[Maitri]

Hi you posted this just as I posted asking about a manifold. Can you explain what you mean by "manifolds with accessible joints totally inpracticable for plumbing a full system"? Just a thought, someone said that in Germany all pipework is behind wide skirting how possible is that, that the pipework could go round the wall and be hidden behind skirting?

 

[so-solar]

have you contacted the nhbc? or have you contacted your insurance company? I take it you exhausted all options contacting builder? Or even try a no win no fee solicitor not sure if they do this type of work but worth a shout!

 

[sparky]

Prob possible to re-plumb in the way you say using piping surface and boxing in after or trunking for pipe drops. Would do this in copper. All joints could then be accessible by removing boxing panel. As others have posted though every new build site ive worked on has been plastic under floor and drops with copper tails. All surface pipework copper. Once pressure tested never had a problem. If you have a leak youd see a damp patch on ceiling so wouldn't b hard to find but would need to cut a hole in floor to rectify. Manifolds being accessible on new builds? Due to pipe runs in all directions for heating and plumbing fixtures, joists etc. underfloors upstairs requires lots of joints to b made! Changing from plastic to copper in walls requires jointing. You cant possibly have access to all thes these joints! I can see where youre coming from most builders and plumbing companies on new build use plastic with very few problems. Is it really worth all the hassle and expense to change!

 

[Maitri]

Hi Sparky "once pressure tested never had a problem" for how long? It is leaks below floor level that is the problem, guy from Wessex Water said how do you know you have a leak? Well one way you might know you have a leak is if the boiler loses pressure, which is why Nos 43 was re-plumbed. Part of the problem here is that the piping to rads is MLC pipe and plumber said it is hard to get a sound connection which is why he said he always uses copper above floor. So if manifolds and accessible joints are out of the question are we saying that all people in new builds will have to have all their floors dug up every time they have a leak in the system with possible re-plumbs within 20 if not 10 or less years?

 

[sparky]

Manufacturers normally give 25 year guarantee. After that who knows, as people have said has plastic pipe been used for the last 20 years?

 

[Gray0689]

A manifold would be used so that plastic can be used without any joints under floors ie one run of pipe to each rad the only joints there would be is at the manifold as said before your problem is not the plastic pipe it is with the workmanship you really need a plumber to come in and check the hole system if the developer is still in business you need to get a solicitor on to it

 

[Maitri]

Hi so -solar, yeh Builder remains liable for problems notified in the first 2 years, but NHBC interpret that as liable only for specific leaks that were not repaired, not even liable for yet another leak from the pipe that was repaired! Reading through consumer law this doesn't actually seem legal to limit consumers rights in this way. Consumer law is quite clear when it comes to 'fit for purpose' 'durable' etc etc and how can a plumbing heating system that has leaked from the start and a boiler that clearly was never commissioned etc been seen as being 'fit for purpose" etc.. And how long should plumbing last? Insurer isn't going to want to cover shoddy workmanship, D&G would not cover repair on boiler and not sure buildings insurer will cover floods due to shoddy workmanship. So yes gone to solicitor via Buildings Insurance cover for legal fees but solicitors are reluctant to stick their necks out and call the NHBC to task even though building regulations were via the NHBC and clearly the plumbing on the estate should not have been passed as 'fit for purpose'. So I am just trying to think about my options in case the solicitor drops the bombshell that he doesn't think I have a 51% chance of winning despite having a plumbing/ heating system that nobody would want to sign up for if I tried to sell my property and I would not have signed up for if I knew then when I know now!

 

[stevetheplumber]

wessex water have some cheek critcising plastic when every water company in the land are replacing their cast iron mains with plastic

 

[Nat]

On all the new build I've ever worked on never put any paperwork in the floor (screed) except for gas main. All plastic paperwork is put in dropped ceilings and then rad drops are inside the walls. In houses you might find paperwork underfloor upstairs but then if there was a leak you'd see it in the ceiling downstairs.

In my experience plastic pipe and fittings are great if used properly. The new hep2o stuff is guaranteed for 50 years so who knows how long it will actually last.

 

[so-solar]

if the boiler was never commissioned and the nhbc did a c.m.l on the property then they are liable, part of the nhbc c.m.l inspection consists of the boiler commissioning paperwork being checked, also request a first fix pressure test certificate from the builder, I think you should put a little more pressure on the nhbc to be honest,

 

[sparky]

As above, should have a first fix pressure test cert and gas cert and a boiler commissioning cert. If you have an unvented cylinder you should have a cert for that too. As nat said, only ever run gas in the screed on sites ive done.

 

[Maitri]

Gosh you guys are amazingly helpful. What is a c.m.l ? Is this something we can request from NHBC? NHBC claims agent when he was here asked the builder where a copy of the Benchmark certificate can be found but there doesn't seem to be copies kept is that correct? NHBC agent was surprised that copies not kept. At least 4 people in the road have not got a Benchmark Certificate. Should the builder be able to provide a first fix pressure test cert? Can he make it up? We were told that the system was not pressure tested before floors ceilings etc went down. Really couldn't put more pressure on builder or NHBC , builder has another 15 properties to sell at least half still haven't got NHBC Certs you would think that alone would be incentive enough to sort the Phase 1 problems wouldn't you not just be extremely rude and offensive to us all.

 

[sparky]

A copy of the benchmark and gas safety cert should have been in your handover pack. The first fix pressure test certs are given to the builder and a copy to the plumbing company. The benchmark will have details such as if the system had been cleansed and inhibitor added. Hope this helps.

 

[sparky]

NHBC normally wouldnt hand over the property without having the relevant benchmarks and certs.

 

[Maitri]

Thanks sparky, this is what the builder keeps telling us, the plumbing that has leaked since the start the builder keeps saying must be OK because the building regulations via the NHBC passed it but that didn't mean the builder didn't have to re-plumb in the first 6 months the first property on the estate to be sold !! It is odd that none of us have benchmarks but from what Domestic & General have said the boiler had not been commissioned and certainly there is no evidence inhibitor was ever added. Indeed the builder said "I don't think it's law that inhibitor should have been added", but it clearly asks which one was used on the benchmark certs. So what does c.m.l mean? See so-solar above. And who does the pressure testing, and does anyone keep copies of benchmark certs?

 

[tamz]

Reading through this you certainly have had your problems and i can see how you are sick to the teeth of this but you do not need a full repipe of the heating system. You have a leak that needs finding and sorting.
Personally i hate plastic pipes and will do anything i can to avoid using it but modern building methods do not go hand in hand with copper i'm afraid. Builders "generally" also use the cheapest available labour which seldom means even decent.
Your leak must be below the floor or inside a wall. Now if the photo's you posted were of your house build in progress photo 7 shows the pipes laid as continuous lengths? from inside the wall. You could start there . Cut a section of wall out and you should be able to isolate each rad individually to find the problem rad/pipe.
Now to get a tradesman to do this may work out an expensive exercise and it may indead be cheaper to repipe the ground floor. Perhaps you should speak to a reputable local plumber who may offer a better solution.
Btw you could have the full ground floor repiped in a day with minimal mess or disruption if you get the right guys to do the work. Drop inside the walls in 10mm plastic 😱 and exit behind the rads. It is not a hard job to do but may cost up to 1K.

On your other points.
NHBC........totally useless unless your house falls down. They are paid by the builders and "work" for the builders, so unless there is a total fu by the builders you are on the losing side with them. They won't "generally" offer any help.

Your boiler being commisioned.
Whether you have a "benchmark" or not is only a paper excersise. It is a piece of card or on the last few pages of the MI's 60% of which are filled with lies or copied direct from the book. It really is a worthless piece of paper. It contains nothing of any use but manu's will use it as a get out. (you never said what boiler you have?)

The problem with your system. Radiators do not rust due to not being commissioned.
Commision a boiler consists of taking and recording a few readings then sticking some inhibitor in. Nothing special or spectacular. Even commissioned systems can be badly done. Even if it was commissioned as per MI's and the benchmark was filled in correctly, after 3 years of topping up the pressure your inhibitor (if there ever was any) is well washed out and corrosion is taking place.
If the boiler is depressurised but still contains water there is still corrosion taking place (steel rads). Not much of a problem and can be dealt with. You WON'T need new rads.

What you need is a more aggressive approach to the builder. tell him you are getting a plumber (hope you get a good one) in and he is paying as it is an ongoing problem or you will put placards up saying don't buy these houses as the workmanship is terrible and the builder will not resolve any problems. (personally i would have the agent, and the next one etc, scared to come back to work)

 

[REDSAW]

i.m.o for peace of mind. exposed re-pipe is the way to go. this can be skillfully hidden behind skirting boxes an down pipes in capping.
this way, any leaks = min damage, easily spotted and rectified, cheaper to do and repair. no future stress.

 

[Nat]

The CML or council of mortgage lenders inspect the flat or house when it is finished to see if it is mortgageable as I understand it. They're never going to know if there's a problem with the plumbing but you may have some recourse down this route.

 

[so-solar]

nhbc do a pre plaster inspection, the last site i was on the nhbc officer asked to see the pressure test cert!

Also, to pass the c.m.l all of the relevant paperwork which included the commissioning paperwork,benchmarks had to be filled in and presented to the hhbc,

We have had red marks and houses fail nhbc for not filling in the unvented cylinder sticker!

It seems you have a very poor nhbc officer, and the builder sounds terrible!

As for copies not being kept, there is a sticker on the front of your cylinder with the installers information, just check if this is filled in?

 

[unguided1]

Are your neighbours suffering with the same problems if so speak to them about it because it will strengthen your case with the builder and NHBC

 

[Maitri]

Yes there are 6 properties known to have plumbing /boiler problems and 2 as yet in the same build, unsold. I got them all to write down the problems they have had and presented it to the NHBC and asked them to look at the problems across the estate and whether the plumbing /heating should have been given the "building regs via the NHBC" that the builder keeps throwing at us as evidence that there is nothing wrong with a system that leaks the only problem is people like me who cause trouble! Nos 43 the first house to have been sold in the road, as I have already said, was re-plumbed within 6 months of them moving in because boiler kept losing pressure and they could not track down the leak. The original plumber from the estate wasn't paid and is now out of business, the builders new plumber stood in front of the NHBC claims agent (when he came to look at the problems at our property 2 years later ) and admitted it was easier to re-plumb than track down the leak, as if that was all perfectly normal and of no consequence to the other 5 properties all suffering similar problems!! Amazing. The builder knew the problems with the plumbing and just kept on selling properties. The young couple next door (and this has been reflected across the other properties) had a hose blow off from below their boiler (there is copper up to the boiler so I am not sure what blew) but he turned the water off, when he turned the water back on the pipe blew off the back of the upstairs toilet (?) and water gushed down their staircase ! They are, indeed we all are worried to go away in case we come back to a flood. My current concern is I know what the NHBC are like, and the solicitor allocated to our case via our buildings insurance made initial contact yesterday and said, "it would be prudent to consider what the NHBC says." ALARM BELLS. In my experience of solicitors they are not imaginative, they hate doing anything that rocks boats or hasn't been done before, and they are EXPENSIVE so most cases are not proportionate to the kind of money that can be gained by litigation. Our insurer had passed our file to another solicitor, they thought it would be a claim in the small claims court (up to £5000) and quoted £2500 for fees! Then it turned out they acted for the builder, not like you can find that information very easily these days on the old PC! So yes, when I heard from solicitor, despite the case looking sound, solicitor was clearly not interested that the problem was reflected in other properties only really interested in what the NHBC will say so I thought I would start to consider my options because I have been fighting this for a year now with the builders with the support of the CIPHE offering me support in tracking down the pipe etc and WRAS but I have been in a similar situation before (indeed it is how I became homeless for a year and ended up moving here) battling with authority figures that just don't budge and getting nowhere life is too short. This time I realise I am not alone, nobody in the road wants to keep paying for this shoddy plumbing, 4 properties have problems with their boilers permanently losing pressure, they could well all be chock-a-block with swarf and sludge like ours AND leaking, but I am running out of ideas as to how we can get this sorted. SO REALLY REALLY APPRECIATIVE OF THE FEEDBACK YOU HAVE ALL GIVEN ME THANKS AGAIN

 

[capitanpugwash]

You say the property has previously flooded and had other issues. When you purchased the property I believe you said it was from somebody else. You should have during the conveyancing process have received a form filled in by the sellers called 'additional enquiries' form or something like that. In it, there will have been questions about whether the vendors have had problems with the house, the structure, flooding etc. In it there may have been questions concerning issues or disputes with the developer etc. This is a signed declaration and stands in a court of law.

Admittedly you will have to gain evidence that the sellers knew of these issues and have not declared them. This will have to be more than just the neighbours telling you they knew and more along the lines of a petition or group letter. Maybe there will be a letter of complaint to the council building regs department which could be a matter of public record. Either way, if the vendor has been dishonest in not declaring where requested all of the required information then you should have comeback.

I know that this is demoralising for you near to retirement and at the moment you are pursuing NHBC and the developer but this is another avenue to pursue. Where in the country are you? There may be someone on this board who can pop round and have an honest and open discussion on the merits of further work.

Good luck.

 

[Maitri]

Hi Capitanpugwash yeh I have considered this but previous vendor died so it was sold by relatives who didn't live in area and they can claim they really didn't know about the problems or simply that they thought the problems had been sorted by the builder. The previous purchaser lived here just one year, he found he had terminal cancer when he went to register with new doctor, so problems with plumbing weren't probably high up on his agenda!

 

[capitanpugwash]

Ok Maitri, Another quick thought: You can claim yourself through the small claims court. If you get all the evidence together yourself: history of leaks, problems with boiler, plumbing etc and keep it well documented and reasonably narrow in your claim for, say, a newly installed boiler and central heating system. Keep the claim reasonable (£2500 maybe) and you can hope that the developer does not turn up for the case as is quite common and the award could go in your favour. Whether you then receive the award becomes another battle, but much of the filing is done online now and the cost is around the £100 mark if I remember rightly. The whole set-up is very informal and designed for the lay person to respresent themselves in a non court environment. No wigs, no benches etc. I would consider that route possibly. Particularly if you can get two or three matching and consistent assessments from plumbers to present to the court that all say that the system is not fit for purpose, is poorly installed, does not conform to current standards and would be economically cheaper to replace. A judge would be far more independent that NHBC and more likely to uphold your claim that the installation is not fit for purpose and requires replacement. That's maybe how I would proceed.

My old man's a solicitor and has a couple of tasty sports cars. They don't get there by being reasonably priced. He was tempted to become a plumber when he found out how much they earn ;-)....