Hi Fuzzy firstly I admit I do not have all the answers and considering the state of our industry niether do the muppets that are supposed to be regulating our industry but I reckon that the whole industry desperatly needs a huge shake up also as we are all agreed that rougue installers are definetly cowboys, why not have a bounty system where every time a cowboy is prosecuted who ever assists with getting them caught gets a reward, more importantly this your industry as well as mine what are your suggestions to improve it
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Hi Fuzzy firstly I admit I do not have all the answers and considering the state of our industry niether do the muppets that are supposed to be regulating our industry but I reckon that the whole industry desperatly needs a huge shake up also as we are all agreed that rougue installers are definetly cowboys, why not have a bounty system where every time a cowboy is prosecuted who ever assists with getting them caught gets a reward, more importantly this your industry as well as mine what are your suggestions to improve it
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MickW
I'm at a meeting in the House of Lords next week with APHC sustainability group, which consists of mainly big businesses, but includes other groups like Summit Skills and Zero Carbon Hub, both of whom have input to government. I'm the only person there who is anywhere close to the sharp end of the industry and my only reason for being there is to make sure they don't forget small business.
I will be getting an update on the Green Deal and MCS and I will, of course, be talking about the industry campaign - I just haven't decided yet how best to handle it! I'll keep you all posted about how I get on.
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dontknowitall
I'll suggest buying some bows and arrows, until I can come up with a much more sensible solution.
To be honest, a CLOSED book set of exams on the basics of heating and ventilating a house, wet plumbing, basic building regulations, water regulations and unvented cylinders and so on. A proviso that no examination can be taken within 4 weeks of attending a course. I find it all too easy to pass an exam when I've read the books that morning. I'd have much more difficulty if there was a time gap if I was new to the industry. If experienced then these basic exams would be quite simple.
Then subsets of exams on various forms of providing heat, i.e. gas, oil, solar, ground source, etc. A separate exam for basic electricity to be covered by plumbers and electricians and then more detailed exams for electricians.
Okay, I know it's more exams but IF THERE WAS ONE SINGLE BODY FOR PLUMBING, HEATING and ELECTRICITY instead of GasSafe, OFTEC, HETAS, MCS, REAL, CIPHE, ELECSA, NICIE, Mrs Jones's Trusted Plumbing and Heating Engineers, etc it would cut costs of registration and would also give customers a single contact point if they had an issue with a tradesman.
To me, all the above will stop those people just setting themselves up as a renewable heat source company and installing systems that don't work properly or are poorly installed. Please note there's nothing about recording phone calls, complaints procedures, etc, etc. It is purely trying to create a better standard of installation. I'm not trying to stop new companies - only wanting them to have sufficient knowledge and good installation techniques to make a good job as opposed to having great salespeople selling the wrong type of system to customers or not sticking to sensible installation standards.
As a separate topic I'd also like to see people like me who are reasonably new to the industry, having to pass a basic exam in building techniques (e.g. where to notch joists, sleeving pipes through walls, preparing walls before tiling, etc, etc). I'm sure most of us have taken an educated guess in the past when confronted with a difficulty and perhaps done jobs where we have since realised that we did something wrong.
I hope you dont miss any of them Mick. I take exception reading on the Summitskills website about how they are "Taking the lead role in putting together part of the action plan focusing on the skills and knowledge that will be required, SummitSkills was able to draw on its bank of expertise gained by working closely day-to-day with employers and trade associations in the plumbing, electrotechnical, heating and ventilating, refrigeration and air conditioning industries. These are the people who will be responsible for installing environmental technologies."
I for one have nothing to do with summit skills. I as a small business owner have never had any dealings whatsoever and no one has ever asked about my views on the industry. Maybe its time the people who make the decisions should take a little bit more care about whom they appoint as trusted advisors.
Most of these folk wouldn't know what a heat pump was if it bit them on the chorus (rhyming slang there).:mad2:
Goes to show just who is being catered for with this MCS. A training provider advising the government? hmm...
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I can lend you a pair of size tens a lump hammer and a Kango, with a bleeding loveslave for effect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MickW
Thanks, Mike, but I think I'll make do with my briefing document and a few persuasive words! I might come back for the trade style attack equipment if they don't listen :icon12:
No worries Mick, are you sure that breifing document will be enough I am sure that me and the guys would be more than happy to assist with some WMC's, (Weapons of Mass Construction)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just found this on the Electricians Forum, turns out, they are not very happy either and one of their members TedM has asked question directly from the members to Gideon Richards who apparantly is the interim CEO of the MCS.
So I already know what I will be asking so if you have any questions for him fire away cos he will be getting a phone call for an apointment in the morning,
Here is the thread from the electricians forum Questions for MCS
So I already know what I will be asking so if you have any questions for him fire away cos he will be getting a phone call for an apointment in the morning,
Here is the thread from the electricians forum Questions for MCS
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MickW
I have just had an interesting 28 minute phone call with Gideon Richards, Chair of MCS steering group, after I criticised him on hearing an interview he gave about MCS accreditation. Needless to say, we did not agree about a few things!!
Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.
I'm looking forward to that 🙂
Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.
I'm looking forward to that 🙂
Looks like the message is getting through http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=195094
What would you expect from a politician they never get all the facts right, but at least they are starting to realise that they have made another complete cockup.
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fuzzy
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Gray0689
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MickW
Would it be worth noting something on the Government's Red Tape challenge website?
Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge
Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge
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mylocalgasman
Apologies if i have come in half way through a thread and this has already been covered, "Who is the driveing force behind the renewable market" , the general public, i dont think so, who on this forum has been inundated with enquiries from customers wanting to pay the extra charge involved in fitting green technolgies. There is not, nor will be any apetite from goverment to fund up-skilling. We are Skint !
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MickW
Yes, I looked at that a couple of months ago, but it looks like they are inviting comment about specific legislation and I couldn't find anything to do with MCS accreditation there. I've had another look today and still can't find anything relevant. If you, or anyone else, can find a suitable section to place a comment, I'd be very grateful.
I did try to cover this in the closing paragraph of my original blog:
This government talks a lot about the green agenda, encouraging small business, and deregulation. Slimming down MCS to a competence/safety based system for small business will tick all those boxes, with zero downside risk.
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MickW
It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.
MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!
I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.
However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.
I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!
Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.
Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!
I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.
However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.
I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!
Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.
Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you are dealing with customers, but that's just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.
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A Massive well done Mick I do not envy you on this huge undertaking and as I said before I am more than willing to help and give any back up you need or I can just be there to get yer back up!!!.
I feel that the magic words that you have put that sums up your meeting, is that they were only there to represent their own organisations and fundamentaly I feel this is the problem with the whole of our industry, we the plumbers are the industry they the organisations are not the installers and the sooner they realise this the sooner we will be able to sort this whole debarcle out as I keep ranting on on there needs to be on scheme in place that represents us the installers not just a splintered group of fat cats only interested in keeping themselves in a job.
I would love to go to one of these meetings and give em a taste of how I feel about these muppets coz I knoe I wouldnt be able to hold my tongue, as indeed Gas Safe is going to find out on Monday the 18/7/11
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MickW
I have added an update to the original post in my blog which will also now be incorporated into the briefing document to be circulated around the industry. The update reads as follows:
UPDATE - 14th July 2011
Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.
It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.
QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.
We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.
UPDATE - 14th July 2011
Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.
It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.
QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.
We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.
Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”
Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”
Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
Just like to say thank you for finding that Markfxy, It just goes to show that people like Simon Roberts have no interest in helping small companies go forward in the renewable market unless they are paying extorionate fees for completley irrelevent QMS, They claim to be a voice in the industry but as far as I am concerned they are not the voice of my industry that is heating and plumbing they are the voice of an industry that does not need to exist, Biomass, solar thermal, heatpumps and CHP should be left to the heating engineers, and PV and wind farms could be dealt with by the electricians, why the hell do we need another so called industry creaming money of the backs of the people already trained to do these types of installation
Give it a few years when the cost of solar PV has come down and the massive profits have gone all the double glazing companies and the rest of them that have jumped on the bandwagon will pull out of the renewables market including easy MCS. Then when there's nobody to install other technologies maybe then the government might realise that ignoring the small installer, one man band wasn't such a good idea. just a thought:smug2:
here is someone else saying the same thing Government microgeneration scheme faces shortage of certified engineers | Randstad Construction, Property & Engineering News
this makes an intersting read, admitedly it is very old news in the world of poitics but note the names in the last paragraph Why Whitehall hates solar panels - Telegraph talk about keep it in the family!!!!!!!!!!!
This article makes interesting reading and it shows how the MCS scheme has failed customers Solar industry found guilty of failing to police itself | Energy and Environmental Management (EAEM) Magazine
Nice find that one it just goes to prove that the customer is not being protected at all by the need for a QMS in my eyes it is a complete and utter pointless exercise
I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.
I reckon that they will "tighten" things up to make it even harder for us, typically not understanding where the fault lies.
M
MickW
Sad isn't it that I think you're probably right! Bugger off you, I absolutely refuse to be depressed! :30:
The campaign is going well and I've got meetings on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday which will help!!
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fuzzy
They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry
You are probably correct in your thinking Fuzzy, but no-one could ever admit that as it goes against all competition laws. I find it quite interesting that some of these big firms use smaller businesses to install the technologies on their behalf, effectively by passing the rules of MCS. Who wins out of that? certainly not the customer and then the industry takes a pounding.
Maybe they should remove the clause that lets an MCS accredited company use subcontractors? Atleast that way every installer is responsible for the job. Big firms would be forced to employ their own trained staff, smaller subcontracting firms would have to apply to be MCS accredited and therefore responsible for their installs and to bring them alongside the one man band who at the moment has to provide both the admin AND technical expertise.
I still disagree with the QMS but thats another tangent.
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fuzzy
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MickW
I was replying to CES - I don't want the industry 'tightened up' to exclude decent competent installers and let dodgy bigger firms get away with stuff.
My campaign is nothing to do with letting standards or consumer protection diminish. Have you read the update to my blog?
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fuzzy
I saw your response to 'tightening up' post and based on your comment considered it to mean you dont want the industry to be controlled.
I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.
They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.
They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
Maybe it's just me, but I've always found the larger or national companies give a much poorer service than the '1 man bands', but being a 1 man band I'm biased. 🙂
I'm all for giving my customers a great service and would say 99.9% would agree, you always get the odd one now and again that can never be pleased, and I speak to customers about their options. I can't give them specifics about cost savings, grants etc but to give them an overview of whats available. I also tell them it if they want to seriously investigate renewables to make sure they use an MCS installer and make sure the equipment is MCS accredited, which then prompts the 'why don't you do it?' and the long winded conversation about costs involved etc.
I'm sure I will do it at some point, but not just yet.
Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?
Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.
I think the issue about tightening the industry up is at the moment its not a level playing field. Big firms may have the admin side sewn up but still use subbys. Small firms dont have the admin expertise so install for MCS accredited firms.
Who is accountable? If you follow the MCS guidlines its the MCS accredited firm, but they will escape punishment by promising not to use a subcontractor who doesn't produce a good job. The subcontractor isn't MCS so will just move to the next big firm.
Put this into the case of a one man band, who is responsible for both sides, they have to provide a good job or they will lose their MCS accreditation as they will ,in most cases , not use subcontractors. Not only that, a bad job will tarnish any reputation they may have.
As has been said countless times, the industry has its fair share of cowboys but don't necessarily think these cowboys all drive vans, a lot of them drive company cars and work in large company offices. It would be very dangerous for the government to think that the one man band is the one causing the harm to an industry sector that has barely started up.
Who is accountable? If you follow the MCS guidlines its the MCS accredited firm, but they will escape punishment by promising not to use a subcontractor who doesn't produce a good job. The subcontractor isn't MCS so will just move to the next big firm.
Put this into the case of a one man band, who is responsible for both sides, they have to provide a good job or they will lose their MCS accreditation as they will ,in most cases , not use subcontractors. Not only that, a bad job will tarnish any reputation they may have.
As has been said countless times, the industry has its fair share of cowboys but don't necessarily think these cowboys all drive vans, a lot of them drive company cars and work in large company offices. It would be very dangerous for the government to think that the one man band is the one causing the harm to an industry sector that has barely started up.
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fuzzy
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fuzzy
Not all one man bands or small traders but rarely do blaggers, poor plumbers go on to build a large empire!!! many cowboys i have come across move on quickly, regulation/registration etc is there to protect from that.
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fuzzy
so the best way of controlling is by allowing bad installations and regulating it after the event?
get them to rectify the problems or either bill them for the remedial work which was carried out by another sub-contractor
But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?
I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.
The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.
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fuzzy
i dont think its that easy, cowboys are notoriously hard to get back to a job they have finished.
If we want renewables and installers of them to be held in high regard we would find that hard if we allow poor installations and use a reactive measure instead of controlling it at source
If we want renewables and installers of them to be held in high regard we would find that hard if we allow poor installations and use a reactive measure instead of controlling it at source
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fuzzy
I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.
I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.
Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.
Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.
My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.
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fuzzy
In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control
So all this poses the question of how cowboys persist, rules and regulations are obviously no deterrent so it must all be down to cost!, and if it's down to cost then surely the customer has an element of accountability. After all you get nowt in this life for nothing. If a customer is prepared to pay considerably less for something then do they accept it may be far from perfect!
I totally agree with what you are saying, we need rules, regulations and quality in what we do. But having these will not deter the cowboy.
I totally agree with what you are saying, we need rules, regulations and quality in what we do. But having these will not deter the cowboy.
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fuzzy
If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing
"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways
Agreed.
Buyt whilst training centres are £££££ orientated, getting bums on seats by questionable measure and not caring about who passes then things aint going to change.
My two recent experiences of training where my OFTEC 2 1/2 years ago and my G3 in March. The OFTEC assessment was a bit of joke but that just maybe how it looked from my perspective, only three of us on it and very much geared to passing at all costs. But I don't know how much of this was because we all new what we where doing, may have been different if there had been 16 of us and a couple of numpties in the group. I got the impression the guy taking the assessments sussed us out pretty quick. The G3 assessment was a full day and I was back in the van before noon having passed.
Interesting discussion this.
I'm not saying we should stop regulating because cowboys exist, I'm saying the regulating does not work.
I can see the contradiction, but I don't believe the tightening up on renewables is the best way of doing it. If we want to tighten up the industry we should start at the beginning as one of your previous posts states. Training, make it more thorough and the assessments to mean something. Not just going through the motions with a pass at the end.
But I still believe you can tighten everything up but you won't do away with the cowboys. It may get tougher for them but they will persist.
I don't think its an issue of complaining about tightening up, with MCS the rules are there and the cowboys are thriving due to an ill thought out clause where you can be accredited and not be competent to install or you can install and not be accredited. This is even before the one man band companies have embraced this accreditation.
No one is saying we should have rules for the cowboys and different rules for others. The issue is with the rules themselves that allow this situation to develop.
Can I for instance install a gas appliance without being registered as long as I am subcontracted to a company who is? No.
Can I be registered with a registration body without being competent to install? No.
Can I do this with MCS? - short answer yes. as long as I have a list of subcontractors to use,a quality manual in place and a large enough budget in order to register for the accreditation body, REAL and advertising.
Where is the sense in allowing this rule to exist in this sector?
No one is saying we should have rules for the cowboys and different rules for others. The issue is with the rules themselves that allow this situation to develop.
Can I for instance install a gas appliance without being registered as long as I am subcontracted to a company who is? No.
Can I be registered with a registration body without being competent to install? No.
Can I do this with MCS? - short answer yes. as long as I have a list of subcontractors to use,a quality manual in place and a large enough budget in order to register for the accreditation body, REAL and advertising.
Where is the sense in allowing this rule to exist in this sector?
I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!
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MickW
I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!
I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.
1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!
The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12
2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys.
I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more.
I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name.
My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered.
I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.
1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!
The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12
2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys.
I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more.
I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name.
My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered.
F
fuzzy
That's exactly my point, if no one could subcontract work out then they would have to be trained and deemed competent instead of getting a subcontractor in who doesn't need to be either MCS or even REA listed. Its the QMS that seems to be the issue when it should be about getting MCS companies competent themselves to install, not fill in forms authorising "Joe Bloggs" down the road to install on their behalf.
Just like to say that this might be of interest to some of you guys The Microgeneration Certification Scheme Community
E
eaton
had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,
D
dontknowitall
This doesn't surprise me. So many talk the talk these days but not many walk the walk. I sometimes wonder if any of these regulation bodies actually know what work is involved when it comes to the nitty gritty of installing major items (e.g. boilers, consumer units, hot water cylinders, etc). It's so easy to sit behind a desk and dictate how a job should be done but quite a different matter when you're at the coal face.
The trouble with today's attitude of everyone covering their own backs is that no one's allowed to bend the rules a little because they fear the one stoopid numpty will not think properly and cause a serious problem. The other 999 workers can make a sensible assessment but they're not allowed to. In the meantime we seem to have to accept that we cannot be trusted.
I have also found that if you ask a question no one wants to know just in case they get the answer wrong which means they can be sued. So once again, the worker is left to carry the can.
Must jump off my horse before I get into trouble ...
M
MickW
So, the RHPP has been announced and the grant is available from Aug 1st to March next year. Plenty of time for big firms to pretty much charge what they want, because there are next to no small businesses accredited to do the work at a more reasonable price.
M
MickW
I can't guarantee it, Eaton, but I am pretty much working full time now on the campaign to make MCS simpler for small businesses and I want it quick!
I had a meeting on Tuesday with Gideon Richards, the Chairman of the MCS steering group, and Chris Yates, the man leading the current MCS review.
Gideon Richards dismissed, out of hand, the possibility of exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, stating that it is impossible because the scheme has to comply with European Standard BS EN 45011. To cut a long story short, I told him that I didn't believe that and I have subsequently asked him to show me where any Standard insists that a one man band has to have a Quality Management System. He hasn't come back to me yet.
In addition to continuing with that campaign, I am going to work with Chris Yates on the review with the aim of getting a vastly simplified version of QMS for small business and getting it quickly (a few months, not years).
Small business has already dipped out on the business generated by the RHPP grant announced today, because if they are not MCS accredited now, they will not have time to become accredited and fit anything before March, which is the cut off for installations.
And to DontKnowitAll - I walk the walk and the powers that be know I don't give up easily. I will get there, one way or another!
I know I shouldn't get personal, But Id love to hoof that Gideon chap just once in the danglies, just for being an arrogant sod.
Instead of sitting on his chorus on a steering committee lording it, he should be doing something to help people achieve the goal of MCS accreditation instead of dismissing any ideas to help the little guys...
Instead of sitting on his chorus on a steering committee lording it, he should be doing something to help people achieve the goal of MCS accreditation instead of dismissing any ideas to help the little guys...
M
MickW
BG should they be banned from the MCS http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/23622-2-5-million-pound-fine.html
M
MickW
It does make a farce of what some people are saying about maintaining standards - All these nasty one off installers not being able to do the job properly or looking after their customers well... Like BG and Anglia FFS!
T
TVR Steve
My company (which is small) is booked on the course to be MCS registered. I have read many comments on here but by no means 19 pages of them.
I still dont understand what the problem is (apart from cost - same as GSR). Why have gas engineers got a problem with keeping records?
We all go on about the cowboys taking our business and cheapening the trade, now with renewables tradesmen have to show they give a toss about the customer rather than just saying they do.
If tradesmen/one man bands are so good at looking after the customer then why are they so reluctant to have procedures in place to prove we are doing what we say we are?
To me it is the equivalent of Corgi/GSR actually doing what they say and making it difficult for cowboys.
I do agree that the cost is outrageous, but then so is the potential workload for tradesmen who will take on the big companies and do a good job.
I still dont understand what the problem is (apart from cost - same as GSR). Why have gas engineers got a problem with keeping records?
We all go on about the cowboys taking our business and cheapening the trade, now with renewables tradesmen have to show they give a toss about the customer rather than just saying they do.
If tradesmen/one man bands are so good at looking after the customer then why are they so reluctant to have procedures in place to prove we are doing what we say we are?
To me it is the equivalent of Corgi/GSR actually doing what they say and making it difficult for cowboys.
I do agree that the cost is outrageous, but then so is the potential workload for tradesmen who will take on the big companies and do a good job.
The thing with the MCS is that it is perceived to be another "add on", yet another fee we have to pay in order to work. MCS might seem reasonable but when you look at the added costs which are in addition to GSR the system is fundamentally flawed and favours the big companies as "one fee fits all sizes".
Another argument is that we have been running businesses before MCS and provided good service so why should the introduction of a new scheme suddenly mean that without a QMS we don't provide good service?
It is now becoming obvious that even the big companies are not practicing what they preach when it comes to MCS. A lot of them are ignoring the REA scheme with regards sales tactics, incorrectly advising the returns of new technologies. Google the "which" report on solar stuff. So if this MCS is all that it is supposed to be then how come it doesn't stop companies who are registered being cowboys? - Truth in the matter is that it doesn't. Just because you are registered doesn't mean you cant be a cowboy and rip people off, by the same token, just because you aren't registered doesn't mean you will rip people off.
Another argument is that we have been running businesses before MCS and provided good service so why should the introduction of a new scheme suddenly mean that without a QMS we don't provide good service?
It is now becoming obvious that even the big companies are not practicing what they preach when it comes to MCS. A lot of them are ignoring the REA scheme with regards sales tactics, incorrectly advising the returns of new technologies. Google the "which" report on solar stuff. So if this MCS is all that it is supposed to be then how come it doesn't stop companies who are registered being cowboys? - Truth in the matter is that it doesn't. Just because you are registered doesn't mean you cant be a cowboy and rip people off, by the same token, just because you aren't registered doesn't mean you will rip people off.
I agree with What TVR Steve say's, likewise i have read a a lot of the thread but not every single post.
Yes the cost is outrageous but that's not that bad of a thing, the potential earnings will far out wiegh this cost, one thing it will do is keep these potential earning's within the small group of like minded individuals/companies who are willing to invest their hard earned profits into there future.
Lets face it very few customers would go to the huge expence of having any type of renewables installed with out recieving one of the various grants, feed in tarriffs etc, to get these the installer has to be registered, no Tom Dick or Harry can now jump on this potential cash cow with out training/registation.
If our gas industry had a similar type of closed shop registration, where by for example the customer could cliam the VAT back, or you could not buy gas aplliances with out registration then this may help our trade and give us more work.
My personal opinion is that MCS is good, and Corgi/Gassafe is a pile of ****e that does nothing to help us.
Bob
Yes the cost is outrageous but that's not that bad of a thing, the potential earnings will far out wiegh this cost, one thing it will do is keep these potential earning's within the small group of like minded individuals/companies who are willing to invest their hard earned profits into there future.
Lets face it very few customers would go to the huge expence of having any type of renewables installed with out recieving one of the various grants, feed in tarriffs etc, to get these the installer has to be registered, no Tom Dick or Harry can now jump on this potential cash cow with out training/registation.
If our gas industry had a similar type of closed shop registration, where by for example the customer could cliam the VAT back, or you could not buy gas aplliances with out registration then this may help our trade and give us more work.
My personal opinion is that MCS is good, and Corgi/Gassafe is a pile of ****e that does nothing to help us.
Bob
The trouble is, every tom dick and harry can and is jumping on the bandwagon as the big companies are subcontracting work out to people who, although maybe trained, do not have to go to the expense of being MCS registered. This kind of proves the point that MCS in its current form is not fit for purpose. We now have Double glazing firms installing Solar panels, how can they prove competence? Big company salesmen ignoring the REAL scheme code of conduct when providing quotes,how do they get away with ignoring written codes of conduct? and then you have us, the small guys who have to dish out the exact same cost as the big firms and then wait for a renewable job to come along before we can even be considered for registration. I agree there has to be rules but rules must be followed by everybody, not just for the small guys.
I might be sounding a bit bitter, but Im in the process of registration as I think the only future for my business is renewable technologies but I see more and more leglislation being battered into us by so called experts, which prevent my business growing and yet the cowboys who are subbied to bigger outfits get away with it? Wheres the logic in following the rules?
By the way, Im not implying people who are subbied to bigger outfits are cowboys!
I might be sounding a bit bitter, but Im in the process of registration as I think the only future for my business is renewable technologies but I see more and more leglislation being battered into us by so called experts, which prevent my business growing and yet the cowboys who are subbied to bigger outfits get away with it? Wheres the logic in following the rules?
By the way, Im not implying people who are subbied to bigger outfits are cowboys!
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I never realised that firms could sub this work out and still claim the tarriffs, i was under the impression that it was the same sort of set up we have in our gas registration....you had to be qualified ie mcs acredited/approved/registered.
Bob
Bob
I'm getting registered with NAPIT for Solar PV. I'm using a mate of mine who's a Qualified Electrician who has been on the 4 day NICEIC Solar PV course. I queried NAPIT if I need any Solar qualification, they said no, as long as you use a suitably trained subcontractor. "Does he/she need to be MCS registered?" I asked, "No".
As far as Im concerned its a major loophole that is attracting the "fly by nights" so Im jumping on it too before all the work has gone! Its the only way I can think of fighting back and hopefully getting some work out of too. After all, the RHI has been nothing short of idiotic round my way, everyones on mains gas and what good's £300 for a solar thermal install?
As far as Im concerned its a major loophole that is attracting the "fly by nights" so Im jumping on it too before all the work has gone! Its the only way I can think of fighting back and hopefully getting some work out of too. After all, the RHI has been nothing short of idiotic round my way, everyones on mains gas and what good's £300 for a solar thermal install?
The MCS is not fit for purpose and is failling the customers it is designed to protect miserably, the fact is that if you can afford to pay for registration and you have a qms, then fine your in, I am constantly going round condeming installations by MCS accredited installers for quite basic mistakes, a prime example is last week the whole installation was ok apart from the fact that the underfloor heating manifolds were piped the wrong way round, flow on to return bar and return onto flow bar, this on both manifolds.
M
MickW
As I said on another thread, I'm sorry, that I have not been keeping you up to date with the campaign to make MCS more accessible for small business. This is partly because I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall dealing with the chair of the MCS steering group.
I am still trying to do what I can and the last contact I had with Gideon Richards (Chairman of the steering group) was to ask for 2 or 3 of the campaigners to be allowed to address the MCS Management Panel. They are all aware of the email exchanges between Mr Richards & I, but are all carefully making no comment.
Needless to say, my request has been ignored for the last 6 weeks, so I will be repeating my request in the next day or so - don't hold your breath!!!
I am still trying to do what I can and the last contact I had with Gideon Richards (Chairman of the steering group) was to ask for 2 or 3 of the campaigners to be allowed to address the MCS Management Panel. They are all aware of the email exchanges between Mr Richards & I, but are all carefully making no comment.
Needless to say, my request has been ignored for the last 6 weeks, so I will be repeating my request in the next day or so - don't hold your breath!!!
F
fuzzy
R
radswilldo
I would like tell MickW that many of us appreciate your endeavors. Regarding MCS, i have been speaking with the tech at my plumbing federation for around a year now. From what I understand, MCS registry will not be the only game in town, it may even fall by the way side, via competent person schemes. Alterations and complete re-thinks are happening. Come March/April next year all may be very much different.
F
fuzzy
MCS is required for the tariffs, if your not applying for any said incentive does the installer need to be mcs? surely competence is all thats required, therefore if the tariffs alter or cease to be then so wil the mcs?
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