Damp concrete floor in extension, tiles breaking

[cammy0102]

Hi guys,
another update. My builder's guys came back on Saturday and they removed more tiles from the floor (floor seems to be damp everywhere), removed the toilet, removed a tile from the side of the bath.

They then had a look under the bath and put the toilet back on and left but said they'll come back in a few days to see if it would dry out.

Here are some pictures I took
Damp bathroom - Album on Imgur

The floor there seems to be even more damp under the bath than under the tiles of the floor (outside the bath). This could have been partly due to all the water that was coming in to the building from the waste pipes outside which are directly outside the bathroom (previously all the water from the waste pipes were going on to the patio and probably back in to the building but this has been fixed with a new patio and a new gully to collect water) but I reckon there's still a leak in the pipes in the bathroom.

One thing I forgot to mention before, is my brand new combi boiler installed by these guys end of last year, has been continually losing pressure in the last couple of months (since I started turning heating on again). I have to keep topping it up every 5,6 days. For example last week I put the pressure up to 1.5 but then it went down to less than 1 in 5 days. Can anything other thing a leak cause the boiler to lose that much pressure?

I could also see that the pipes had green/blue stuff on them. Does this mean there's definitely a leak or could they be oxidizing because of lot of moisture in the air under the bath?

When I saw this on Saturday I was very worried, thinking the brand new copper pipes are starting corrode everywhere. I don't know if the plumber covered the copper pipes in the walls and floor with material before adding plaster. If they are not covered, could the copper pipes in other parts of the house (say the living room) corrode/leak in a few years time? Or will they still last decades?

I really don't know what to do. I emailed my builder and told him I'm really worried/stressed. He said he'll sort it out.

I even thought of getting an independent surveyor to come have a look but I am not sure they are going to help me resolve this. They might not tell me more than what I already know.
I spoke to a 2nd builder whom I trust and he reckons I should just let my build resolve this.

What do you guys think?

 

[joni os]

Get rid of all those flexible bends. The ones that look like concertina. Including one off toilet.
If not leaking at the moment they are a leak waiting to happen.

 

[cammy0102]

Get rid of all those flexible bends. The ones that look like concertina. Including one off toilet.
If not leaking at the moment they are a leak waiting to happen.

The white one where waste goes? What should I have instead? A leak from this would easily show up on the floor tiles I'd imagine.

Any comments on rest of my update/situation under the bath?

 

[Radioman]

What I think he means is the flexible waste pipe from the bath and the wc. I must say the plumbing looks very rough, more a Builders plumbing than a plumbers plumbing. The green and blue on new copper pipes could be from solder flux not being washed off. If it's on old copper then it could be the dreaded blue spot corrosion.

Water leaking from the boiler could be the source of our damp. Any heating pipe runs near the damp area?

 

[cammy0102]

What I think he means is the flexible waste pipe from the bath and the wc. I must say the plumbing looks very rough, more a Builders plumbing than a plumbers plumbing. The green and blue on new copper pipes could be from solder flux not being washed off. If it's on old copper then it could be the dreaded blue spot corrosion.

Water leaking from the boiler could be the source of our damp. Any heating pipe runs near the damp area?

I got them to replace all the plumbing in the house and I trusted them to do the right thing 🙁
So far the contractor/builder has been helpful though and wants to find and fix the issue but I'm stressed and frustrated it's taking a while.

Yep there are heating pipes that run along the wall next to the bath.
How can you isolate the problem though? I've heard of thermal imaging and gas tests to find leaks. Are these expensive?

 

[Radioman]

Given the issues you are having and the direction this seems to be going I would suggest that you politely ask your builder who I assume is the main contractor, for a hard copy of his public liability insurance. I would also ask him if the plumber he employed is actually on PAYE as an employee or is he sub contracted self employed. If the latter get his insurance too. This may seem drastic but I can assure you it is very necessary as if you don't get a resolution and they walk away you will have a devil of a job to get any compensation.

You need to get the ch heating sorted asap as a priority. As the boiler is 12 months old it needs a service so you could get that sorted at the same time by a gas safe engineer. The leak may be inside the boiler but more likely from a pipe joint.

Another simple check would be to turn off all water outlets and observe the water meter to see if there is still flow.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

where is the water coming from that is forming droplets on the bottom of the bath?

 

[oz-plumber]

That isn't damp - that's borderline flooding.

Definitely a leak somewhere.

I would be contacting your insurance company for advice on the situation.
I would even ask them to send out an assessor.

I would say from the photo's, that the bathroom will have a lot more damage done to it to find and repair the leak(s). You could basically be in the same position as you were when you decided to have it re done.

Do you think the builder will re-start the process from the beginning?

That's where you insurance company may be of assistance - getting his insurance company to pay for the repairs

 

[cammy0102]

You guys are scaring me. Claim on insurance already even though the builder is willing to find the problem and fix it?

I don't think the builder can walk away (even if he wanted to) as we have a contract (well it's all in emails) and I don't think he's that sort of guy. He's doing big refurbishments all over London in properties far more expensive than mine.

I think the plumber worked for him (probably not a qualified plumber but someone that has a lot of experience) is one of his employees. I reckon he pays all of his guys (they've worked for him for a while) a daily rate.

I don't think I have a water meter at the property. I pay a standard fee every month to Thames Water.

Can anyone comment about thermal imaging/gas tests to pinpoint a leak?

 

[oz-plumber]

I don't think the builder can walk away (even if he wanted to) as we have a contract (well it's all in emails) and I don't think he's that sort of guy. He's doing big refurbishments all over London in properties far more expensive than mine.

I think the plumber worked for him (probably not a qualified plumber but someone that has a lot of experience) is one of his employees. I reckon he pays all of his guys (they've worked for him for a while) a daily rate.

As for a reply:

The standard of plumbing done, from the pics provided, does leave a lot to be desired.
Flexible waste connections, the bath waste flexi runs uphill. It should have fall from the outlet of the trap.
Concealed flexible water connections - installed where you have to remove tiles to access them.

As for the insurance - I would contact them as soon as possible.
If that's the standard of work being done at your place and places that are worth a lot more than yours, I would be contacting my insurance company sooner rather than later.

Better to be the first in and get a claim before someone else send him broke.

Once he's broke - contracts are about as useful as soiled toilet paper!

Guess who pays for rectifications then......You!!

 

[rupertwelliams]

I was scanning the thread about tile breaking. Good thing, I found this. I also didn't go through my DPM.

 

[cammy0102]

As for a reply:

The standard of plumbing done, from the pics provided, does leave a lot to be desired.
Flexible waste connections, the bath waste flexi runs uphill. It should have fall from the outlet of the trap.
Concealed flexible water connections - installed where you have to remove tiles to access them.

As for the insurance - I would contact them as soon as possible.
If that's the standard of work being done at your place and places that are worth a lot more than yours, I would be contacting my insurance company sooner rather than later.

Better to be the first in and get a claim before someone else send him broke.

Once he's broke - contracts are about as useful as soiled toilet paper!

Guess who pays for rectifications then......You!!

Isn't that flexible waste pipe from the bath connected to the overfill at the top of the bath and then connected to the waste pipe at the bottom of the bath? If so it's not running up hill, it's taking waste down.
I have just emailed the builder and will ring him later. I mentioned to him about the flexible pipes.

To be honest, I don't think he's going to go broke any time soon. He's got multiple teams working for him on various projects across London and he's been doing refurbishment work for a good number of years. And I know most of his clients are happy (I saw a couple of projects before I gave him the job). It might have been this particular 'plumber' he used for my flat. But yes he's responsible for the work carried out by his men. I don't think he actually checked their work.

One thing I don't want to do is rip out everything and re-do it all which will take at least a couple of months. I went through a lot of stress during refurbishment and don't want to go through that again.

The other builder I spoke to said get the issue in the bathroom resolved and if there are no problems in other areas then don't stress about it. He said give my builder a chance to fix the issue. I also got this guy to check the flat after the refurbishment (albeit the cosmetic stuff) and he was happy with the finish.

If this is not resolved, then I will get insurance involved but not just yet.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

I think you should let your insurance know that you may be claiming to give them a heads up

 

[oz-plumber]

In that case, when you find out where the water is coming from, let us know.

You've had the pan removed, tiles ripped up from the floor, tiles ripped off the walls, apparently new plumbing throughout, surface water under the bath, surface water on top of the new tiles and you've requested information on unobtrusive leak detection.

But...your happy with the work done and the work performed by the builder.
And you even admit that the person who did the Plumbing may not be qualified.

If I were you, I wouldn't only be getting my insurance company involved, I would also be getting legal advice.

 

[cammy0102]

Sorry but your solution sounds like a knee jerk reaction. I would have gone with insurance if the builder wasn't cooperating but he is.

There could have been multiple issues contributing to damp - water trapped in the old floor from previous bathroom floor, poorly built floor in the extension and no DPM, higher ground level outside the bathroom and waste water going back in to the building and finally a leak.

There's no surface water on top of the tiles (the water you saw on the tile was the water in the toilet brush container which I accidentally knocked over).

I made an insurance claim for damaged drain pipes in the garden only a couple of weeks ago so not so keen to jump on to another claim without giving the builder a chance to resolve it.

I asked about leak detection tests as builder mentioned this. I am certainly not going to pay for this - it will be up to him to use whatever method to find the leak and fix.

I suspect the builder's guy will have to remove the bath and possibly a couple more tiles from the wall.

 

[cammy0102]

I spoke to the builder before and talked about all my concerns. He's sending guys to take the bath out and find the leak this Saturday. He's also going to show the pictures to his Corgi guy to get feedback on the work of the plumber he's used.
anyway he told me not to stress and that he'll take care of it. He said he'll use his insurance if he has to and also he'll do tests if they can't find the leak in the bathroom. Bit more relieved now.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

sounds like you have a good builder there.

 

[cammy0102]

sounds like you have a good builder there.

Not sure if you were being sarcastic but if you weren't, he's a decent enough guy and so far has been fully cooperating hence I don't want to go down Insurance route yet. I still haven't made the full payment either so he's not going to get the money until it's sorted.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

no not sarcastic at all