DIY Project To Zone My House

[Richard at Home]

Good evening and a happy new year to you all

I welcome any comments and feedback to my project I am looking at starting in 2013

now I know all this sort of thing can be done with many of the costly out of the box solutions that probably cost more than the boiler itself

What I am looking at doing is to create a heating system that has at least 3 Zones

I believe I could do this with some changes to the main Pipe work and 3 motorised zone valves and an additional time clock


Reason for project

During the day one member of my family is at home and requires heating to be on for 4 rads in part of the house.

Currently I am heating all the house all day when only part of the house needs to be heated

My daughter-in-law is also at home some times when not at Uni and may need her front room heating.

Now my logic is to have the secondary time clock switching the water flow between parts of the house during the day and in the evenings opening all valves to heat the complete house

Now I know this could also be done with the new wireless digital TVRs but this expense would be significant


I will add to this post as the project develops

If you have any questions or would like to bounce ideas or comments please reply and this may become an interesting post.


Thank you for your time

Best regards

Richard

 

[Dannyparty92]

Urmmm Robert was going to be the name for the robot :blush5:.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Then how you gonna connect all that pipe to rads without fittings 3x honeywell 2 ports 180 ish as well, then a call to someone to sort it out when you hash it up

 

[SimonG]

Note to other users thinking of doing something similar.

This is not the way to do it, please employ the services of a decent (preferably recommended) plumber/heating engineer.

IMHO

 

[vern]

😱 Great another sparky-joiner on the forums......good luck when the 438 throws a certain fault related to flow, directly related to what you are going to try to do!

 

[Dannyparty92]

Remember your going to need to use copper for the first 3 meters from the boiler for your heating pipe work.

 

[Richard at Home]

I totally agree with the comment above

No offence taken

 

[Dannypipe]

You agree that you are going to have to fit an S-plan plus, or you agree that the robot should be called Robert?

 

[Destroyer2813]

You agree that you are going to have to fit an S-plan plus, or you agree that the robot should be called Robert?

Probably Robert

 

[Richard at Home]

I am not touching the main boiler or output pipes they are 10m away from where I will be working all that is in and working.

All I am going to do is adding extra pip work so I end up with 2 or 3 circuits controlled by the valves.

To me this is not a large job

2 days in the loft to input main 22mm pipe work

 

[Millsy 82]

If you are trying to save money why dont you do it properley 1st time not a botched diy job (it might work as you want but im not so sure). If you have seperate zones with seperate programmable room stats it would be more cost effective in the long run. Plus circumstances might change in the future so you may have to alter it accordingley and to do it right will not cost alot extra to what you are suggesting.

I understand what you are trying to achieve but it will be incorrect (as has been said before) and if installed correctly then different zones could be kept at different temperatures saving you money in the long run.

 

[dancinplumba]

Probably Robert

whos robert then ?

 

[Dannypipe]

Well, I genuinely wish you the best of British and would be most grateful if you give us some feedback. Photos are always nice too!

Keep asking questions on here. We're a friendly bunch, even if we don't agree with your ideas!

 

[Richard at Home]

😱 Great another sparky-joiner on the forums......good luck when the 438 throws a certain fault related to flow, directly related to what you are going to try to do!

I have seen most of the 438 Error codes when the boiler was commissioned

It now works like a dream and has done so for 3 years

The only thing that broke was the silly plastic control knobs for hot water and heating fell off the front of the boiler ( Rubbish Design )

Valiant engineer said this was a common fault on this unit.

Supplied a fix kit.

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks and I do understand why you dont agree with my ideas.

I will supply pictures and i am looking forward to see how well it does or does not work

I am going to draw up a Quick Layout that should show what i will be implementing

I will post it in 10 mins

 

[secret squirrel]

I have sat here and read most of the pages of this saga, I don't understand why people are still commenting on it,

The OP is going to do this no matter what advice he's given, will not listen to what he's being advised. That is unless it agrees with what he wants.

There is a wealth of experience on here and every time someone with a huge amount of experience says something the OP comes back again, blustering about how good he is.

Just give up, let him get on with it, come back or not, why bother? move on to the next post.

As a customer he'd be your worst nightmare and who'd want to work for him anyway, he's better off flying solo!

 

[lame plumber]

night night said zebidee boingggggg (the old way of ending childrens hour) 😱

 

[SimonG]

Could really do with this thread deleting to stop somebody else trying to copy.

 

[jase158]

so let me get this straight in my head and I will draw a lil diagram,

you are going to have 3 zone valves coming off the exisisting central heating valve,
these will control
1 = 4 rads
1= 2 rads
1= 13 rads?
what is going to control these valves?
How will you move them from shut to open and visa versa?
what happens when the person in the house wants more heat?
what happens when the person in the house wants less heat?

sorry if this is already covered but I want to understand without weeding through hundreds of posts

 

[jase158]

so your talking something like this?

 

[tooltarticus]

The hot water would be unaffected as it is on the y Plan currently. MY zone project will just switch the zone valves on and off throughout the day regardless of what the boiler is doing

This will hopefully reduce the complexity of control system requirements

Hope you follow what i am saying

no, I dont. if your hot water is on a y plan, then thats going to have to change as your talking about making your system a multi zone s plan. so you will need an additional zone for hot water.

 

[jase158]

Thanks and I do understand why you dont agree with my ideas.

I will supply pictures and i am looking forward to see how well it does or does not work

I am going to draw up a Quick Layout that should show what i will be implementing

I will post it in 10 mins

that was 38 minutes ago!!

 

[leethegasman]

We have no plan to control any aspects of the Boiler

This is done with the Valiant time clock and VR65 Control Unit

Thanks

Not going to get to involved with this one richard but VR65 is just a wiring center i can see what you are trying to do and when i put a new system in my home i wonted to zone it and did and have 5 zones, have had this system for years and works very well.
you asked for help and there are a lot of lads and poss girls on here that tried to give you the correct way to do it but you did not seam to take any advise which i dont understand what ever you decide to do will poss work in some way in the end but if you put your method of controls in my home i know i would not be happy with the way it would work , every one knows why and have been trying to tell you.
😕

 

[jase158]

The confusion for me is how are these 3 zone valves going to open and close
the programmer (in my head anyway) is connected to the 3 port valve, thermostats i.e.
so how does the zone valves open up?
could be done with a thermostat? or even a fused spur! or even an immersion heater timeclock!! but the Op has overlooked this and is not even thinking it is neccessary.
please OP tell us all how you will be opening these up!!
obviously everyonw is saying it would be better if the boiler was interlocked with each zone valve so it doesnt fire up unless the zone valves are open.
And in the interest of safety, what are you going to do if the programmer is calling for heat and the thermostat is calling for heat, but there is no zone valves open? you will have boiler firing, pump pushing but nowhere for the water to go!!

 

[Richard at Home]

Yes Jase this is the layout i am working to

Thanks

 

[tooltarticus]

I have seen both in action

At least when a ameture does a bad job you can justify it

When you see a profetional make a mess it is embarrising

um....

 

[Richard at Home]

the zones will open and close throughout the day on a pre programmed time clock

If i choose at 5PM the number 3 radiator is to be hot this zone valve will open at 5 and if the boiler is on it will heat

If the house is warm and no heat is on the valve will open but will not have any affect because the boiler is not fired up

 

[jase158]

It is illegal in the Uk for any person who is not competent and registered with a competent persons scheme to install any new cables.

However the pipes will work. but I wouldnt use plastic in your attic, especially as a diyer

 

[leethegasman]

I am not touching the main boiler or output pipes they are 10m away from where I will be working all that is in and working.

All I am going to do is adding extra pip work so I end up with 2 or 3 circuits controlled by the valves.

To me this is not a large job

2 days in the loft to input main 22mm pipe work

No one has said you dont have the skills to do pipework ,I can lay bricks but if i dont take the advice given to me to install a lintal its just a pile of bricks the next day that someone has to clean up

 

[Richard at Home]

The confusion for me is how are these 3 zone valves going to open and close
the programmer (in my head anyway) is connected to the 3 port valve, thermostats i.e.
so how does the zone valves open up?
could be done with a thermostat? or even a fused spur! or even an immersion heater timeclock!! but the Op has overlooked this and is not even thinking it is neccessary.
please OP tell us all how you will be opening these up!!
obviously everyonw is saying it would be better if the boiler was interlocked with each zone valve so it doesnt fire up unless the zone valves are open.
And in the interest of safety, what are you going to do if the programmer is calling for heat and the thermostat is calling for heat, but there is no zone valves open? you will have boiler firing, pump pushing but nowhere for the water to go!!

in answer to your question about the heating but no valves open

There will always be a core circuit of 5 radiators that will be on the main circuit ( Not zoned ) so when the boiler comes on it will always be heating at least 5 of the 19 radiators

There will also be a bypass valve to cope with the TRV valves as they close

Hope this helps answer your question

Regards
Richard

 

[Richard at Home]

It is illegal in the Uk for any person who is not competent and registered with a competent persons scheme to install any new cables.

However the pipes will work. but I wouldnt use plastic in your attic, especially as a diyer

Why would you not reccomend plastic in my loft ? Just out of interest.

 

[Richard at Home]

Yes i have just finished a 35m2 extention

great fun

 

[lame plumber]

its soooo wrong but what do we know!!!! cant someone shut this thread down pse

 

[jase158]

and think about it properly,

if you zone the other rooms, your family member will be cold, he will turn the thermostat up and turn time clock on by boiler to fire boiler up, then open his programmer, the whole house is now being heated.

so you MUST zone all radiators so that the person who is home will turn on the programmer and the zone he wants to open when he is cold.

but the best option is to leave the area that the person is going to be in unzoned, then he can just turn the boiler on as usual when he wants heat, then have the rest of the house on timer, so it is warm in morning and when you get home from work!!

the way I see it is that you are assuming that you will know the times when he is warm and cold!! but you really need to set the house so he can adjust freely when he wants aswell as having the timers.

 

[jase158]

Why would you not reccomend plastic in my loft ? Just out of interest.

when I first started out as a plumber, I used plastic. When testing there would be several leaks from not fitting correctly, pipes not cleaned properly and forgetting inserts, 3-4 leaks in an attic would cause a lot of damage.
they also leak several months later as they may seem right but they aint and they can be eaten by mice

 

[leethegasman]

:mad2:

the zones will open and close throughout the day on a pre programmed time clock

If i choose at 5PM the number 3 radiator is to be hot this zone valve will open at 5 and if the boiler is on it will heat

If the house is warm and no heat is on the valve will open but will not have any affect because the boiler is not fired up

 

[Dannypipe]

I'll say it one last time. (Others have all said it). Then I'll leave you to do what you want.

Get rid of the three port valve. Fit 2 port valves, all with their own stat, and preferably with their own timer too. This includes the hot water cylinder....which you can still use the existing cylinder stat, you will just need alter the wiring.

Don't come off a three port valve with a bank of two ports. It's just crap plumbing. It will have anyone who works on the system in the future scratching their heads, and rubbing their chin, whilst sighing.

If a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing properly. Isn't that true?

There is a bloke on here "Gray0689", who reguarly fits systems on a manifold, with actuators. Each room has it's own stat. Great, but only if it's done from scratch by a proffessional.

I will now remain silent, and let you do what you wish....and I wish you well.

 

[dancinplumba]

been installing plastic since it came on the market, it has its place and if installed correctly gives no problem

 

[tooltarticus]

What is the point of going to all the effort of forming separate zones without giving each zone thermostat interlock? It would be little more effort to make it an s plan plus system, which is tried and tested for one thing! I don't mean to be rude, but do you genuinely think you have put more time and effort into system design and testing than Honeywell for example?

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks, for your advise. i have not had a great deal of experience with it to be honest i guess time will tell

Mabe another thread

eeekkkkk 🙂

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks, for your advise. i have not had a great deal of experience with it to be honest i guess time will tell

Mabe another thread ...

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks Danny for your feedback

 

[jase158]

the thing I think he is trying to do is to just change a few bits of pipe and not the whole system, he is trying to do it on the cheap and do half a job.
what he is talking about is a massive job, usually done by ripping a whole system out and putting a whole new system in (unless you are lucky and can see all pipework and all rads are seperate, not teed off each other)

I have to be honest though and can not see it working at the moment, with a bit of work and careful thought, then yes it will work, but the OP is thinking the wrong way round.

But the best option is quite clearly to get the right kit and start from scratch

 

[AlexGas]

.....

 

[AlexGas]

......

 

[AlexGas]

There are not many tasks I have not undertaken...

Jack of all trades!?

 

[AlexGas]

Have you got one of this?

 

[Richard at Home]

the thing I think he is trying to do is to just change a few bits of pipe and not the whole system, he is trying to do it on the cheap and do half a job.
what he is talking about is a massive job, usually done by ripping a whole system out and putting a whole new system in (unless you are lucky and can see all pipework and all rads are seperate, not teed off each other)

I have to be honest though and can not see it working at the moment, with a bit of work and careful thought, then yes it will work, but the OP is thinking the wrong way round.

But the best option is quite clearly to get the right kit and start from scratch

Thanks for the feedback and yes i am talking about half a job.

I am not removing any radiators or the pipe work in the walls

Just the way the rads are connected together in the loft.

I am lucky all the rads are individual pipe back to the main 22mm runs so no to hard to do

So it is not a big job from my point of view just a layout change of the main 22mm runs.

To be honest the old pipe work up the loft ( That was nothing to do with me ) is a mess and even if i cut it all out and Re pipe it all to exactly the same layout it will be 100% improvement

Remember this was heating system that had a water tank that was Horizontal due to the low roof height and was 20+ years old with an old floor standing boiler in the kitchen.

Thanks everyone for your comments

Regards

Richard

 

[AlexGas]

Keep safe, Richard!

 

[Richard at Home]

I will do Alex and thank you.

 

[TBServices]

Can't believe this thread is still going. At best you'll have a system that doesn't work, at worst you'll create a new shower area in the middle of your bedroom, or melt your poor old dears with overheating.

 

[b.lynch plum]

This is more of a pob cast of in the life of rich! he's not asking for help just saying wot he's doing right or wrong when this froum is about sharing info and asking for help! I might be wrong but your on the wrong web site you should be putting your own podcast on your own web site

 

[lame plumber]

luv to do a survey on that house for the next buyer!

 

[TBServices]

luv to do a survey on that house for the next buyer!

Sorry love but the heating doesn't conform to any kind of regs and the bodger who had the house previous has made all the radiators rot. It'll need ripping out, so ask for 10k off the asking price.

 

[Richard at Home]

Some pictures of my plastic pipe work in the bathroom and kitchen sink

 

[TBServices]

View attachment 9983View attachment 9984View attachment 9985

Some pictures of my plastic pipe work in the bathroom and kitchen sink

What's the relevance?

 

[Barry98]

Am sure the faults will become apparent when you do the second fix and test fella

 

[Dannyparty92]

Very nice Richard.

 

[b.lynch plum]

Pat on the back mate hope this makes you feel better lol

 

[Richard at Home]

The extention is finished and fully passed off.

 

[Richard at Home]

From the comments of not using plastic pipe work

 

[Rickster123]

Are you boxing all that plastic pipe work in?

 

[dancinplumba]

you say extention an i say extension......lets call the whole thing off. 😉

 

[lame plumber]

Hope you carried out a full pressure test on all the plastic 15mm to ensure the manufacturers warranty is applicable in the future.

 

[smtplumbing]

i love the flexy that just reaches the bath

 

[Koogatubac]

Sorry richard but that pipework is unbelievably rough!!!
That basin waste is sooo high! U wont be able to box that in!!
I wouldnt have any of that in my house.

Sorry just saying what everyone is thinking...

Least you've put a batten underneath the bath for support

 

[smtplumbing]

o and the waste run on the basin waste

 

[ecowarm]

My first post on this thread, and a word of warning Richard!!! All the electrical components on a heating system must be isolated at one point. It is not acceptable to have seperate parts on separate fused spares i.e time clock and 2 port on a completly separate circuit to any other part of the system. Think about it, some comes to work on the system and isolates the system by the fused spare at the boiler and the starts working on the system?????????

 

[stevetheplumber]

I assume your engineering course didnt explain self cleaning gradients

 

[stevetheplumber]

Why the four bends on the waste ? Expansion loop?

 

[Koogatubac]

Does your basin waste in your bathroom just go in your bath trap?
Hard to see from pictures

 

[PlumbBobBob]

Why the four bends on the waste ? Expansion loop?

black spot for clogging

 

[dancinplumba]

this reminds me.....don't enter job of the month :-( 😉

 

[Richard at Home]

This is the bathroom looks now it is finished

I do not have a picture of the boxing around the waste pipe but it is fine and looks good and does not look out of place.

Thanks

 

[TBServices]

Skirting in a fully tiled bathroom? Woe is me.

 

[dancinplumba]

don't fancy being watched in the bath :-(

 

[Koogatubac]

Love the towel rad though! 🙂

 

[erpkid]

View attachment 9983View attachment 9984View attachment 9985

Some pictures of my plastic pipe work in the bathroom and kitchen sink

Looks like the end of the push fits are buried/restricted in the plaster. This is not good practice whoever did it.

 

[Richard at Home]

Does your basin waste in your bathroom just go in your bath trap?
Hard to see from pictures

No the main 110mm soil pipe has 2 separate collars that take the individual outlet from the sink waste trap and bath trap

 

[Richard at Home]

Love the towel rad though! 🙂

Thanks I have another 2 to fit in the main bathroom and the other the second en suite

 

[TBServices]

Love the towel rad though! 🙂

On special at STAX this month. Hundred quid plus the dreaded.

 

[dancinplumba]

Love the towel rad though! 🙂

is it big enough tho for the Heatloss ? ;-)

 

[Howsie]

In a word, no.

 

[AWheating]

please follow Ecowarms advise about the wiring and wire it correctly save harming any future engineers. if wired with boiler interlock to all zones and it will save you money and give you good control.

make sure you lagg the pipework with min. 19mm lagging, and if you ever have rodent problems dont use plastic. Plastic needs clipping every 300mm or so, dont fit auto airvents in the loft, fit thumb vents.

 

[AWheating]

is it big enough tho for the Heatloss ? ;-)

not many are.

 

[Keefy]

4 elbows on your basin could well bring you problems in the future. Do you have enough access in case you need to take it all apart? Speaking of access - can you get under the bath without smashing the tiled bath panel?

Nice rad though, and keep posting pics Richard. This is my favourite thread of 2013 so far.

 

[AlexGas]

I do not have a picture of the boxing around the waste pipe but it is fine and looks good and does not look out of place.

If that would be me - I would lose all that pipework. I guess you like boxing. It would look better without the boxing. Hope there’s an access to the bath taps.

 

[AlexGas]

This is the bathroom looks now it is finished

I do not have a picture of the boxing around the waste pipe but it is fine and looks good and does not look out of place.

Thanks




View attachment 9986View attachment 9987

I guess you wanted a feedback on the tiling job, cos you’ve posted the pics for us to see. Here’s one from me. I do tile by the way.

Sorry Richard, not picking the holes but the tilling could be much better. The very first row of the tiles above the bath should sit above the bath lip – not to the side of bath. It would look much neater that way. You would end up with a nice silicone bead. I guess you had to use a plastic strips to fill the gap. Also, the very same row of tiles around the bath should be a full tile. It would look much better that way. I can see the top row by the ceiling would be fuller (which is always good) and you wouldn’t have the first grout line above the wash basing so close to the basin. There would be no issues to do that. Whoever was doing the tiling just didn’t bother to do that.
I don’t really understand why you end up with 3 rows of tiles on your side panel!? What’s the deal with that bottom tile strip by the floor!? Did you run out of the tiles!? A tiller wouldn’t do that. Yes, I can see the grout line on the side panel follows the grout line on the wall. You didn’t have to do that here, cos the side panel ended up looking a bit ugly. I don’t know if you can see that.

As above in the post, you should lose the skirting board.
Good try. I’m giving you 6 out of 10.

And I can’t see much drop at all on your waste pipe work from the wash basin!? It will get clogged up.

 

[AlexGas]

Where's the tolet pan!?

 

[nickelarsed]

Well for a diy tiling job I'd say that's pretty damn good. It's not professional because you didn't measure out correctly first and start from the centre of the walls. Which is why you have smallish cuts at the top and at the end of the walls, and they are not symmetrical at each end . TBH I think people are being a bit picky about the tiling, in all honesty I've seen so called pro's do worse. But those wastes will block.,Get rid of unnecessary knuckles etc and put a proper fall on them. You can read up about falls etc in any good plumbing book. I would suggest you read and absorb several of them before trying to continue with your project. Good luck

 

[kay-jay]

omg.

never under any circumstances tile in a complete bath panel without access! this becomes so much more imperative when you have used plastic pipe and flexible tap connectors behind the panel.

but im sure im worrying about nothing....as an engineer im sure you will have thought of this and no doubt built an access hatch into the other side of the wall from the bath taps, and cunningly disguised it with a floor standing cupboard.

 

[Richard at Home]

Thanks Guys for the feedback

There is more fall on the pipe from the sink waste that than can been seen in the picture so i think this will be ok, No problems so far 12 months

The bath panel is removable and is only secured by a bead of silicone and magnets on the back so i can remove it if needed

I have added a pic of the tiles and the ceiling how its finished.

Also a pic of the toilet as requested, Roding point inside the cupboard for building inspector

This complete panel behind the toilet is also removable you can see the clearance gaps. I have sealed these gaps post this picture with white silicone to neaten the finish it and it now visually looks like the bath panel

I am not a tiler and i know my job is just average but it looks ok and is functional

It is just the spare bathroom in the annex


Also in reply to the question about access to pipe work in kitchenette, yes i have full access to get to all my pinwork in case anything needs changing

This looks a lot different from when i started the extension.

 

[Howsie]

You've done alright for a DIY'er IMO.

 

[Richard at Home]

From an earlier post someone asked how i was going to box in the pipe work from the bathroom basin to the bath

I did not actually have a picture of this but i have taken one just to show how i have covered it up

This box is removable again in case i have to remove the bath panel

I do understand that somple people do not like the skirting board in this area of the bathroom.

Regards

Richard

 

[MrMeek]

Tbh despite what others say, you have done a really good job for a DIY person, seriously give your self a pat on the back 😛

 

[Richard at Home]

Thank you I have worked hard on it

Would anyone like to see 1 pic of the start of the extention

 

[MrMeek]

Thank you I have worked hard on it

Would anyone like to see 1 pic of the start of the extention

Go on...

 

[Howsie]

A little but of architrave and skirting have done the trick. Looks OK to me.

 

[Koogatubac]

The finish looks very very very good for a DIY

However underneath the boxings you WILL get problems

However if your happy, at the end of the day its your house, and the famous saying "you learn from your mistakes"

🙂 all the best

 

[Richard at Home]

Good evening

Just purchased Automatic by-pass valve Honeywell DU145

Now looking for 50M of JG Speedfit Layflat polybutylene pipe coil 22mm

Phase 1 is to install a common return that captures all rads.

I will be installing this first as it will not affect any of the current setup

estimated install time including drain and connect to all radiators 2 days

Day 1

Clear Space ( General )
Make plan of layout path for new pipe work once all space is made available.
Lay single floor boards down the length of the loft across rafters to give flat base for the pipe to lay on
Install many clips and clip pipe work in.


Day 2

Drain system,
Remove all current copper and plastic pipe that is currently associated to the return only.
Connect all return pipes from radiators back into the new run of 22m Pipework
Fit bypass valve
Refill and test.

I will keep you updated.

Regards
Richard

 

[kay-jay]

Good evening

Just purchased Automatic by-pass valve Honeywell DU145

Now looking for 50M of JG Speedfit Layflat polybutylene pipe coil 22mm

Phase 1 is to install a common return that captures all rads.

I will be installing this first as it will not affect any of the current setup

estimated install time including drain and connect to all radiators 2 days

Day 1

Clear Space ( General )
Make plan of layout path for new pipe work once all space is made available.
Lay single floor boards down the length of the loft across rafters to give flat base for the pipe to lay on
Install many clips and clip pipe work in.


Day 2

Drain system,
Remove all current copper and plastic pipe that is currently associated to the return only.
Connect all return pipes from radiators back into the new run of 22m Pipework
Fit bypass valve
Refill and test.

I will keep you updated.

Regards
Richard

Lay flat pipe won't lay flat its just a bit better than the other stuff on a coil. You will need a load of clips also.