gas fire regs gather hood/closure plate?

[OGBUzzard]

Hi, we are installing gas fires on a job, there are existing 7" chimney liners coming from the masonry "ceiling" of the fireplaces, what are regs regarding the connection of the new flue to the existing chimney liners? Is it corgi or building inspector's governance? I've consulted a few colleagues and no one seems certain. Is a closure plate attached to the chimney liner acceptable??

 

[dancinplumba]

think you need to get someone in who knows what they are doing imo

 

[lame plumber]

if you are installing a new appliance then install a new flue liner, no brainer, you have no idea of the state of the existing liner how old it is etc. But if you are happy to leave a potential lethal situation use an existing liner!

 

[REDSAW]

Hi, we are installing gas fires on a job, what are regs regarding the connection of the new flue to the existing chimney liners? Is it corgi or building inspector's governance? Is a closure plate attached to the chimney liner acceptable??

based on your questions you should not be doing anything regarding the above!!

 

[OGBUzzard]

When I saw 'we' I mean the royal 'we', I myself am not GSR but I am working alongside the people who will be fitting it so I was just interested what the regs were, I am obviously not going to endanger anyone's life by attempting it myself. The chimney liner has been tested and passed all three tests. My main trouble is working out who it is who knows what they're doing with this stuff? I don't want to get a corgi man in for him to tell me he can't be sure it'll adhere to building regs. I've had absolutely no experience of these fires apart from the old panelled back to wall ones, but these fires have vertical flues.

 

[lame plumber]

using old flues is plain stupid, they may pass a test now but being old and corroded they dont have the life left in them to outlast a new fire, hence why manufacturers etc dont say use an old flue they llike you to install new ones and when the place is a building site whats a £100 for a new flue!!

 

[AWheating]

you have to inspect the existing liner along its entire length, this means you must remove it to do so. Its more sensible to fit an new liner as you will struggle to get the old one back in or out undamaged. Its standard practice to replace with new so do so.

Also there can not be any flue liner on show anywhere. If your gsr engineer has not recommended to replace the liner then id get a new gsr engineer. The fact your on here asking questions suggests you know its not being done right.

 

[OGBUzzard]

the flue liners are fine. that is not the problem, it seems no one on here has the answer either, but I wanted to ask to try and clear things up a bit, however they are just as muddy as ever!! I'm not worried it's not being done right because we haven't started doing it yet, It will be done properly eventually, after I've found someone who knows what they're talking about.

 

[tamz]

There are different ways of doing it depending on what type of fire it is.
If your gas man follows the manufacturers instructions and BS5871 (1/2 or 3 depending on what type fire) it will be fine.
It is not hard to do.

 

[Reg Man]

You say chimney liner. If these liners are steel. then you have to be confident that the liner will last the life of the appliance fitted to it. So if they are already old, then it would be difficult to gaurantee their suitability for the long term. Idealy the steel liner should be connected to a gas fire flue box, depending on what type of fire is being installed.

 

[lame plumber]

the flue liners are fine. that is not the problem, it seems no one on here has the answer either, but I wanted to ask to try and clear things up a bit, however they are just as muddy as ever!! I'm not worried it's not being done right because we haven't started doing it yet, It will be done properly eventually, after I've found someone who knows what they're talking about.

As youve been told, 2nd hand liners can never be fine and you are governed by gas regs in carrying out the work which is implemented and inspected either by buildings control or A GSR technician, who Building regs officers want to see having signed off the correct paperwork. How you do an installation depends on various factors being mfis, the type of opening and flue. Best advice is to stop trying to get some one on here to tell you what you want to hear and get a qualified lad/lass in to complete and sign off the work

 

[OGBUzzard]

The reason why I've said the liners are fine is because they were installed at the beginning of the job, which was 2 years ago, they had been tested recently just to make sure nothing had happened to them in between. Everyone here appears to just want to talk about the flue liners, fair enough if that's your expertise, but it's like a child in an exam answering a question that's not there. I don't need any help with replacing the flue liner, although the offer is greatly appreciated, I have a building inspector colleague coming on site today so I'm sure it will all be resolved, thanks anyway guys!

 

[Reg Man]

Quote From British Standard 5440 Part 1, "When replacing an exsisting appliance connected to a chimney lined with a metalic liner, the liner should be replaced unless it is considered that it can continue to operate safely over the life of the new appliance"

Thats why no one on this forum is going to tell what you wish to here.

 

[OGBUzzard]

"unless it is considered that it can continue to operate safely over the life of the new appliance"

which would be covered under us having replaced the liners at the beginning of the job, they have never been used, and we've tested them prior to use.

LOL did anyone actually read the question this has become a farce.

Basically nobody knows, it's ok, not a lot of people do know about this stuff, it's pretty specialist, I have the right man on the job now thanks anyway and he's bringing in the actual section of the building regs that covers this.

I will follow up and post what the outcome is so we all know in the future

Thanks for the somewhat wayward answers!!

 

[Petefinny]

If the liners have never been used then there still classed as new! They should be fine, check the pull on them with a smoke test and check the terminal is smoking then follow up the chimney or were its going up and do a visual inspection for cracks and leaks, thats all that should be done isnt it folks.

 

[Reg Man]

It helps when you know the full facts about the job then.

 

[OGBUzzard]

This has actually turned comical now. Does anyone actually read the original question. I can't respond anymore I'm just going over flue liners over and over and that's not what the question was. thanks for the all the offers of help but nothing here has answered my question. The original question was about sealing the ceiling of the fireplace, but everyone seemed to want to talk about flue liners!!! 🙂 anyway I think we've got the right man on site now so hopefully the building inspector is happy.

 

[dancinplumba]

This has actually turned comical now. Does anyone actually read the original question. I can't respond anymore I'm just going over flue liners over and over and that's not what the question was. thanks for the all the offers of help but nothing here has answered my question. The original question was about sealing the ceiling of the fireplace, but everyone seemed to want to talk about flue liners!!! 🙂 anyway I think we've got the right man on site now so hopefully the building inspector is happy.

no it wasnt, read it yourself
Hi, we are installing gas fires on a job, there are existing 7" chimney liners coming from the masonry "ceiling" of the fireplaces, what are regs regarding the connection of the new flue to the existing chimney liners? Is it corgi or building inspector's governance? I've consulted a few colleagues and no one seems certain. Is a closure plate attached to the chimney liner acceptable??


Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...-gather-hood-closure-plate.html#ixzz2ErVljXQr

 

[OGBUzzard]

"connection of the new flue to the existing chimney liners" is about sealing the flue, so that the dangerous gases don't blow back down into the room. This is the purpose of a closure plate. The condition of the flue liner has nothing to do with how it is sealed to the new flue/ closure plate setup. I will post photo once it's done to clear it all up finally.

 

[REDSAW]

photo/ may of helped at the start!

 

[Reg Man]

Tapered flue gather for connection at bottom of chimney.

 

[lame plumber]

"connection of the new flue to the existing chimney liners" is about sealing the flue, so that the dangerous gases don't blow back down into the room. This is the purpose of a closure plate. The condition of the flue liner has nothing to do with how it is sealed to the new flue/ closure plate setup. I will post photo once it's done to clear it all up finally.

closure plate is found behind a gas fire to seal it to the vertical wall. A register plate is used to seal a fireplace horizontally to prevent dirt and debris falling into the hearth. You can then run a flue to the register plate and up into the chimmney to remove the pocs use the original flue if safe to do so or then connect it to a flue liner. please ensure you know what you are talking about or you may confuse other people reading this.

 

[Mike Jackson]

So the existing liners in the first post have now turned into new liners. Am I alone in smelling a rat?

If the liners are new the obvious course of action is to speak to the manufacturers and ask them how they recommend that the bottom is sealed. Alternatively you could get the hump because you haven't given people the full facts who then try and give you the correct advice.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Hi sorry for the delay but here are the photos of the engineer's solution.

 

[tamz]

Re: gas fire regs gather hood/closure plate?ffs

Lovely!
ffs

 

[OGBUzzard]

We had a metalwork company make up some custom fittings that are just small Enough to slide up inside the liner, and we sealed it with fire silicone at the joint with the liner, and screwed the plate with silicone seal too.

 

[Reg Man]

Looks good but, always helps if it has a tappered transition into the liner though.This reduces the resitance of flow up the chimney. It will probably work ok. flue flow test will find out.

 

[lame plumber]

next issue is whether a plasterboard fire enclosure meets gas/building regs as a suitable material

 

[OGBUzzard]

Double boarded then skimmed. According to Fire regs I think, this is dot and dabbed onto existing masonry. Apocalypse proof, Satan proof!

 

[topdog]

The above installation (fire plasterboard) This is not the correct fire resistance plaster board,
it should be pink in colour as my pic below (This is the correct one that should have been used).



NOT THIS ONE


from
topdog

next issue is whether a plasterboard fire enclosure meets gas/building regs as a suitable material

 

[OGBUzzard]

Double skinning provides the same fire resistance rating as a single skin on pink board, been accepted by ds on jobs for years. Can save you money if you have left over standard boards. Also I did mention it was dot and dabbed onto existing masonry so there's no timber behind it to catch fire. I only posted the photo to show what I was talking about in the original question, because the answers weren't quite what I was looking for, we got there in the end though, thanks for all the answers anyway.

 

[OGBUzzard]

In fact I have seen the following para in many risk assessments and FSOs that I have worked with are in agreement that for existing buildings, this would be acceptable:

"...overboard the existing ceiling or apply directly to the joists either one layer of 15mm fire rated plasterboard or two layers of 12.5mm fire rated plasterboard with overlapping edges, jointed and sealed, installed by a competent person."

 

[Reg Man]

No no no no not plasterboard in a chimney system. tell me its not! Suitable material for flues/chimney's.

 

[topdog]

I always use LS board, FIRE RATED PLASTERBOARD IS USED ON THE FRONT OF THE CHIMNEY BREAST ONLY (Dob & Dab, Then skim plaster over board.
LS board used internally.
topdog

No no no no not plasterboard in a chimney system. tell me its not! Suitable material for flues/chimney's.

 

[lame plumber]

In fact I have seen the following para in many risk assessments and FSOs that I have worked with are in agreement that for existing buildings, this would be acceptable:

"...overboard the existing ceiling or apply directly to the joists either one layer of 15mm fire rated plasterboard or two layers of 12.5mm fire rated plasterboard with overlapping edges, jointed and sealed, installed by a competent person."

you seem to be discussing how to finish a ceiling to a finish to give an hours fire resistance, ceilings arent fireplaces and builders openings! it also mentions competent person!!! nuff said

 

[OGBUzzard]

Thanks for all the advice I just posted the photos to help clarify a few things, anyway the building inspector gave it the nod so all's well that ends well. 🙂

 

[Reg Man]

Interesting talk about plasterboard. On the chimney breast externally in the room all OK. Within the chimney opening it is not suitable. General fire resistance on plasterboard is 30 minutes. This is tested under conditions in event of a fire, this does not confirm suitability as a long term fire resistant material . Plasterboard will degrade at a fairly constant rate when exposed to long term exposure to heat and moisture (the conditions we find in chimneys). The best solution if you need to use a board, is a proper fire proof boarding, like superlux, masterboard ect.

I was involved with assisting an HSE prosecution against a fairly large business some years back, wher the contractor constructed plasterboard in glback boiler openings on about 100+ properties. They got very large fine and had to strip all the boilers out and brick the side wall openings up properly.