GAS LEAK in existing 22mm copper pipe direct to boiler

[brucermiller]

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but really after some advice with regards to the following

We recently smelt gas in our boiler cupboard so i rang the plumber who fitted the boiler who tested with a gas sniffer to indentify where the leak was, we found a leak and the joint was replaced and resoldered. Our plumber then tested the mb drop and it was 1mb over 2 minutes which i understand is not good. Basically now he is saying that it is very difficult to find where the leak is coming from as it could be between the boiler and the gas inlet on the outside (we only have a boiler and no other gas appliances) without cutting the chipboard. Moreover he is stating that as the bit that was replaced was so badly joined and soldered he would suspect others would be like this. Therefore he has suggested an outside 28mm copper run from the GAS inlet along my wall to the boiler which is located against the outside wall. However there is quite a bit of run. Obviously this will be a huge eyesore and also atract copper theifs is there anything else i can do, another point is that the area proposed is a car park for the residents in my street. Am i legally allowed to do this? also see if the is anything i can do in the house with the exisitng pipe work or covering the pipe is some sort of housing, also another point could i have the pipe running direct into my loft space and down to the boiler.

I would appreciate any suggestions just to avoid the theft bit mostly but also value in my house and the effect on buyers by having the pipe on the outside.

House is around 15 years old

What was strange that the drop was only 0.4 before we replaced the first join now it is a 1mb so am a little confused by this

Appreciate everyone is busy but this installation is due to happen a week on Wednesday so really want some advice as soon as possible

Oh i did have to get my GAS stopped as well so had to move in somewhere else

Kind Regards

Thanks in advance

 

[Mike Jackson]

Why wasn't the leak picked up when the boiler was fitted? If the pipework was that bad shouldn't he have mentioned it before. Seems a bit odd to me, especially the larger drop after work has been done.

 

[Rickster123]

Have you had a second opinion? Why have you agreed to have the work done if there is such a lack of trust?
And welcome to the forum.

 

[Roger Welton]

Agree seems odd, he did le the pipework fully cool before carrying out a drop test on it?

AS to your question about avoiding copper theft, no reason he can't do external run in steel pipe.

 

[lame plumber]

if the plumber fitted a boiler and left it with leaking pipework then he needs to rectify the matter asap foc imho. you could mention this to him and mention you arent happy, and you can involve gas safe if the install was recent for their opinion. re copper pipe along an outside wall in a car park, the answer is no cant do, building regs would not allow it, minimum to use ms pipe and be clear of any risk of damage by cars hitting it. finally if the pressure drop has increased, his soldering cant be very good!!!!!!!!

 

[brucermiller]

Apologies the boiler was fitted in November 2012, and tested fine with no drop

 

[brucermiller]

Apologies the boiler was fitted in November 2012, and tested fine with no drop. It would appear that the leak came from an old joint his join for the new boiler was higher up. Not sure about the testing when system was cool. Apologies for the lack of info. With regards to the car park can the pipe at high level?

 

[lame plumber]

pipe needs to be clear of mechanical damage risk from cars.

 

[REDSAW]

or protected..

 

[plumber0808]

Why not trust what your plumber is saying, if not get someone else to look at it and get their opinion/quote. Too many customers come on here complaining but are still going ahead with the work. No one is forcing you to have the work done.

 

[Resolute]

Where does the pipe run currently? Is it just a case of removing the existing cupboards rather then cutting them?

 

[brucermiller]

Thanks for all the comments

The meter is next to my front door and then the pipe enters the house and i assume into the cavity then up to the second floor and along under my bathroom into the landing and into the airing cupboard, this is only a bit of an assumption as cannot see it exactly. So possibly around 4-5 joins in 3 metre pipe.

It is not about trusting my plumber, I do. Just trying to avoid the external pipe and avoid an explosion of sorts due to theft appreciate it can be housed. I understand the fact to make the install safe, But to be fair it is a lot of pipe on the front of the house and along the side. Without sounding bad it will put off perspective buyers will it not? I am a little annoyed that it has leaked so easily from the original install. What is the consideration of testing it cold?

 

[01ST13795]

If the install is checked while heat (from soldering) is still on the pipe the tightness test will show a drop as the pipe cools!!!

 

[TBServices]

A 1mb drop is permissible as long as you can't smell gas. It may be very hard to find the source.

 

[R1CKY]

You should test it when cool, as the gas in a warm, cooling pipe is contracting and will register as a drop on a u-gauge.

 

[Roger Welton]

So to replace/repair pipework along existing run would just mean taking up flooring on 1st floor. Alternative is external run, can be done in steel to prevent any theft concerns. At the end of the day the pipe needs to go from point A to point B there are only a limited number of routes it can take.

Testing when pipe is cold just avoids any false drops in pressure as it cools off after soldering.

 

[plumber0808]

No drop allowed on pipework

 

[01ST13795]

Yeah but you can't have any drop over pipework!!!!

 

[01ST13795]

No drop allowed on pipework

Beat me to it!!!

 

[TBServices]

Sorry guys, I didn't read the whole first post, too long. I assumed the install was tested with appliances connected

 

[REDSAW]

could be across the meter?

 

[brucermiller]

Ok so it may be worth getting him back to test as the all has been off for a few days now? U-Gauge is the water based tool testing the Mb i assume connected to the small valve on the meter.

 

[brucermiller]

Beat me to it!!!

I did read this, the boiler was isolated at that time. However i did notice a T join close to the boiler of the pipe and i am unsure where this would go to. The T join did come back ok from the sniffer

 

[TBServices]

could be across the meter?

Had this before.

Sounds like crummy old pipework is to blame though.

 

[brucermiller]

could be across the meter?

Sorry Redsaw how do you mean?

 

[01ST13795]

could be across the meter?

Would this not be checked though with LDF?

 

[brucermiller]

LDF? do you mean a leak in the meter

 

[plumber0808]

Easy check, cap the meter

 

[brucermiller]

Easy check, cap the meter

Apologies 0808 how do you mean so I can go back to him with some alternative testing

 

[01ST13795]

LDF is leak detection fluid!! By across the meter it means either a leak from the inlet or outlet or the meter itself, from the ECV or anaconda... Capping the meter would check all of this!!!

 

[TBServices]

Apologies 0808 how do you mean so I can go back to him with some alternative testing

If he doesn't know how to check for this he shouldn't be doing job, and its not your job to tell him how to do his. Leave him to it unless you think he's taking the mick.

 

[brucermiller]

LDF is leak detection fluid!! By across the meter it means either a leak from the inlet or outlet or the meter itself, from the ECV or anaconda... Capping the meter would check all of this!!!

Thanks 01ST i will give him a call in the morning to discuss, please feel free to comment further

 

[01ST13795]

I agree with TBServies, don't go telling him his job!!! Get someone else in if you don't feel confident in him!!!

 

[TBServices]

If one of my customers presumed to tell me how to look for a gas leak because he'd been on a forum, I'd be well ticked off.

 

[REDSAW]

silly question as i amy have missed it..what size pipe is it?

 

[brucermiller]

22mm, yeah probably right about checking with the forum bit. But then at what stage do you say enough is enough we cannot find the leak we need to run new pipe

 

[REDSAW]

i take its 22mm throughout?. i bet its a leak in the wall where its plastered over near the meter

 

[TBServices]

That's up to you. He can test along every inch of the pipe by taking your house half to bits, or he can suggest an alternative route to replace it.

 

[brucermiller]

i take its 22mm throughout?. i bet its a leak in the wall where its plastered over near the meter

It is 22mm throughout, will a gas sniffer smell the gas through the plaster wall and flooring/carpet?

 

[brucermiller]

That's up to you. He can test along every inch of the pipe by taking your house half to bits, or he can suggest an alternative route to replace it.

Any doubts about running the pipe up the front of the house from the meter into the eaves through into my loft space and then down into my boiler. Also as another point have any of you come across any good external trunking to cover the pipe that can be painted etc... Also i have read that the pipe if painted needs to be yellow?

 

[jfb]

This sounds as if you need a second independent opinion from another gas safe registered plumber. Just go on the gas safe website for contact details. It will put your mind at rest if nothing else.

 

[TBServices]

Any doubts about running the pipe up the front of the house from the meter into the eaves through into my loft space and then down into my boiler. Also as another point have any of you come across any good external trunking to cover the pipe that can be painted etc... Also i have read that the pipe if painted needs to be yellow?

A run that long is likely to need some 28mm pipe on it.

 

[kirkgas]

TB, it doesn't matter if appliances were connected there was a smell of gas so NO drop allowed

 

[TBServices]

TB, it doesn't matter if appliances were connected there was a smell of gas so NO drop allowed

The smell of gas has been resolved (due to another leak) but there's still a small drop as I understand it?

Or is it once there's been the smell of gas reported it has to be 100% tight? It's not something I've ever thought about as I've never left a leak unattended to

 

[Mike Jackson]

Once a smell of gas has been reported the installation has to be 100% even if the source of the smell appears to have been resolved.

 

[brucermiller]

The smell of gas has been resolved (due to another leak) but there's still a small drop as I understand it?

Or is it once there's been the smell of gas reported it has to be 100% tight? It's not something I've ever thought about as I've never left a leak unattended to

Yes the original leak was found and solved but it would appear that we would have a leak elsewhere due to the pressure drop, however we could not identify where

 

[Daza87]

Completely agree

 

[bewsh]

If the guy has isolated the appliances and there is still a drop then probably the best plan would be a new gas run! It could take ages to find a leak on the pipework, specially if its hidden pipework!

 

[lambchop]

Hi, I may not be reading the op right but did he do full test i.e. the let by & tightness test? Was it pipe work only or did it include the boiler aswell? I have not heard about building regs not allowing running copper pipe externally for gas, so will have too look that up.

 

[aligorgon]

You need to be careful here, personally i would get someone else to do a tightness test before going to the expense of rerouting the gas in a larger size.

Your in quite an awkward position on the one hand you dont want to be seen as second guessing your gas fitter, but then you dont want to be taken for a mug either.

 

[Mike Jackson]

There's no problem with running copper externally, the issue is protecting it from damage.

It's covered in B.S. 6891:2005+A2:2008 8.15.2 Above ground external pipework.

Above ground external pipework shall be protected against the risk of mechanical damage, e.g. in car ports

So any pipework run along a driveway should be protected from mechanical damage. This could be achieved using a mechanical means to protect copper but it's easier and cheaper to run low carbon steel which is inherently more resistant to damage.

 

[TBServices]

There's no problem with running copper externally, the issue is protecting it from damage.

It's covered in B.S. 6891:2005+A2:2008 8.15.2 Above ground external pipework.



So any pipework run along a driveway should be protected from mechanical damage. This could be achieved using a mechanical means to protect copper but it's easier and cheaper to run low carbon steel which is inherently more resistant to damage.

And theft

 

[tamz]

If there has been a reported gas leak no drop can be left, smell or not.

 

[stevetheplumber]

If there has been a reported gas leak no drop can be left, smell or not.

thats not actually true ive been called to reported leaks where another gsr/ hob fitter had tested and found a 2 mb leak and have just confirmed its only 2 mb and the customer hasnt smelt anything so just confirmed with them its ok to leave generally you dont get called to a leak unless the owner has smelt it
but i do agree in this case it should have been capped and labeled
can the new run not be run high level to remove the mechanical/theft problem

 

[tamz]

It is Steve

DEALING WITH SUSPECTED GAS ESCAPES
When responding to the following situations, the gas installation shall be tightness
tested in accordance with clause 5.3.2 (existing installations). However, to
successfully pass the test, there shall be no perceptible movement of the gauge
reading and there shall be no smell of gas

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

It is Steve

DEALING WITH SUSPECTED GAS ESCAPES
When responding to the following situations, the gas installation shall be tightness
tested in accordance with clause 5.3.2 (existing installations). However, to
successfully pass the test, there shall be no perceptible movement of the gauge
reading and there shall be no smell of gas

yes but its excepted that within tolerance leaks are allowed on appliances with no smell or are you talking about pipework only tam?

 

[tamz]

Not after a reported leak mark including appliances

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Not after a reported leak mark including appliances

theres probably a assumption in that reg that a reported leaks come after a smell of gas,its been traced to a appliance within tolerance or not

 

[tamz]

It applys to all reported smells of gas whether reported to a private gsr guy or an esp.
Once it has been reported as an escape it is then down to you to find it or make safe.

 

[stevetheplumber]

so where does permited drop come in to the equation once ive found a drop its officially a reported leak as i would note it on paperwork therefore by your interpretation i cant then leave it

 

[kay-jay]

You can leave a permissible drop only if there is no smell of gas. If there us a smell then it becomes a reported leak.

If there is no smell only an engineer would discover it by testing...

 

[tamz]

so where does permited drop come in to the equation once ive found a drop its officially a reported leak as i would note it on paperwork therefore by your interpretation i cant then leave it

If no smell you can leave it.