Gas training agreement!

[R1CKY]

it is illegal to withold a persons wages for such an agreement. A persons wages can only be stopped for a few things which would written in a standard contract of employement, and any stoppages need to be notified in advance to be legal also.

So anybody who's company does this should stick up for themselves and demand to be treated as the law requires.

I know this, I was in a bad place mentally and emotionally when I left the company, I was close to a breakdown, so I had no energy for a legal battle. I cut my losses and moved on.

 

[Ray Stafford]

it is illegal to withold a persons wages for such an agreement. A persons wages can only be stopped for a few things which would written in a standard contract of employement, and any stoppages need to be notified in advance to be legal also.

So anybody who's company does this should stick up for themselves and demand to be treated as the law requires.

Hi AW.

Whilst it is true that there are very tight rules about withholding wages, that doesn't mean that you haven't signed a contract, which may still be enforceable. Its just that the employer would have to go to court to enforce it, rather than withhold from wages. Whether they would bother would probably depend on the amount of money at stake, and how much time had elapsed.

We have training agreements similar to this, but usually only make use of them if the training is something that the employee requests, rather than the company requiring. I don't think thats unreasonable - in some cases we have laid out £thousands for professional qualifications which will benefit the employee for the rest of their lives, and I don't see why we shouldnt protect that investment. Its just a question of being reasonable and balanced about it, and above all, agreeing it in writing at the outset. We have never had to enforce one, but we would if we felt that an employee was taking the micky.

 

[leethegasman]

When you work for a company you think
This kind of contract is wrong, been there.
When you employ someone this kind of contract is good and if the people that work for you won't to work for you and you treat them fair it will never be needed, bigger company's may abuse this and not have close contact with there staff but I think telling someone they have done a good job and helping them when not makes a good working relationship works on a small scale but poss not in big company's

 

[kay-jay]

Hi AW.

Whilst it is true that there are very tight rules about withholding wages, that doesn't mean that you haven't signed a contract, which may still be enforceable.

.

A contract is unenforceable regardless of any signature if the terms of said contract are unlawful. So if the withholding of wages is unlawful in a particular circumstance then the contract even if signed is completely and utterly unenforceable

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[Ray Stafford]

A contract is unenforceable regardless of any signature if the terms of said contract are unlawful. So if the withholding of wages is unlawful in a particular circumstance then the contract even if signed is completely and utterly unenforceable

I just found this on a solicitors website:

RECOVERY OF TRAINING FEES
Employers often find themselves in a position where they have recruited an employee and spent a considerable amount of money on training them, either by sending them on external courses or by assisting them in attaining a professional qualification, only to see the employee leave shortly afterwards. This situation is often made far worse when the employee leaves the employer to join a competitor who then enjoys the benefits from the training without incurring the costs.
Training Fees as “Loans”
In order to redress what some employers might see as the inequity of this situation, it is becoming an increasingly common practice amongst employers to attempt to recover these costs from employees who leave employment shortly after they have undertaken such training. The usual method adopted is to include a repayment provision in the contract of employment whereby the training costs are “deemed” to constitute a loan to the employee which is repayable if the employee leaves employment within a certain period after the course or training ends.
In fact, provisions of this nature should be contained in a separate agreement to the contract of employment. This is to ensure that, as far as possible, the validity of a separate loan agreement for the recovery of training fees will not be affected if the employer has deliberately or inadvertently breached the contract of employment.
Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss or a Penalty?
Employer’s must be cautious to ensure that the amount of costs which the agreement permits the employer to recover is a genuine pre-estimate of the damages which the employer has suffered. Otherwise the provision for recovery of costs will be construed as a penalty against the employee which is unenforceable. Accordingly, if the employer has derived some benefit from the employee undertaking the training course or attaining a professional qualification during the fixed repayment period (e.g. where an employer has been able to charge customers more for an employee’s services by virtue of that training or qualification) then the amounts which may be recovered from the employee should be reduced to reflect that benefit.
The agreement should also contain a sliding scale of repayment whereby the amount which is to be repaid reduces according to the length of time the employee remains with the employer after the training has been completed. Equally the training fees should also become repayable on the same sliding scale if the employee is dismissed during the repayment period for gross misconduct.
Right to Deduct from Wages
Finally employers will wish to avoid the time and expense of resorting to the courts to enforce their right of recovery against an employee under the agreement. In order to do this a provision should be included in the agreement allowing the employer to deduct monies owed under the agreement directly from the employee’s salary or any other payments due to the employee on termination (including bonus, and any accrued holiday pay owing etc.). However, the employer may still need to pursue court action if there is a balance remaining.
The right to deduct monies from the employee’s salary or final payments must contain the following provisions:

(i) the employee must have signified in writing his agreement to the making of such deductions; and
(ii) there must be a clear statement that the deduction is to be made from the employee’s wages; and
(iii) the employee’s agreement must relate to the deduction being made from that source.
​

Conclusion
An employer must ensure that the above provisions are drafted correctly. As a cautionary note to employers, if a Tribunal orders an employer to repay any amount to an employee on the basis that there was an invalid deduction, the employer then loses the right to recover the money in any other way at all. It is therefore essential that professional assistance is sought if an employer wishes to ensure full protection.

source my emphasis added.

So it looks like a correctly drafted agreement can be enforced, even to the point of withholding wages, but only if pre-agreed". Obviously this is only one lawyers opinion, and case law changes all the time, and the definition of "genuine pre-estimate" sounds like it could keep lawyers arguing for decades, but it would be risky to rely on the courts to strike down such an agreement without getting up to date legal advice.

 

[Ray Stafford]

actually in contract law it doesnt matter what you sign upto, the law draws the line at statutory rights.

for example if you sign upto a contract such as that in question and it transpired that the company was in the wrong and the contract contravened your statutory rights the fact that you signed would not mean anything. to protect idiots it is not permitted to sign away statutory rights.

Right 99.99% of the time, but not absolutely 100%.

I had a situation recently where I wanted to voluntarily waive my statutory rights as part of a contract. I had to go to a commissioner for oaths, and "swear an oath" that my solicitor had explained the consequences to me, but that I still wanted to waive my statutory rights. I signed it, he countersigned it, and the oath was appended to the contract.

It all felt very Victorian, sitting in this oak-panelled study, being lectured like a schoolboy. The really weird thing was the cost - it was £5. Normally a solicitor won't pick up a pen for a fiver, but apparently this has been fixed by law for donkeys years.

 

[kay-jay]

Right 99.99% of the time, but not absolutely 100%.

I had a situation recently where I wanted to voluntarily waive my statutory rights as part of a contract. I had to go to a commissioner for oaths, and "swear an oath" that my solicitor had explained the consequences to me, but that I still wanted to waive my statutory rights. I signed it, he countersigned it, and the oath was appended to the contract.

It all felt very Victorian, sitting in this oak-panelled study, being lectured like a schoolboy. The really weird thing was the cost - it was £5. Normally a solicitor won't pick up a pen for a fiver, but apparently this has been fixed by law for donkeys years.

If the op's employer had him swearing an oath then he really is in trouble....

Not bg is it? Lol

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[AWheating]

Hi AW.

Whilst it is true that there are very tight rules about withholding wages, that doesn't mean that you haven't signed a contract, which may still be enforceable. Its just that the employer would have to go to court to enforce it, rather than withhold from wages. Whether they would bother would probably depend on the amount of money at stake, and how much time had elapsed.

We have training agreements similar to this, but usually only make use of them if the training is something that the employee requests, rather than the company requiring. I don't think thats unreasonable - in some cases we have laid out £thousands for professional qualifications which will benefit the employee for the rest of their lives, and I don't see why we shouldnt protect that investment. Its just a question of being reasonable and balanced about it, and above all, agreeing it in writing at the outset. We have never had to enforce one, but we would if we felt that an employee was taking the micky.

thats what i was saying ray, even if a contract is legal, it can not stop or effect the payment of a persons normal wages. You can only make deductions to an employees wages for a small number of reasons and then it must be after the employee is notified correctly, not after the wage is paid.

my old bosses would deduct wages just becuase they thought its was there right to do what they pleased, they found out they couldnt the hard way with me, but as other employees never stood up for themselves they got away with deducting a fortune.

 

[ambrosia]

mine says if i leave in 1st year i have to pay 75% back 2nd year 50%.
however i didnt sign any contract, just got an email from my boss saying thats what i have to pay back 'if you leave' which to my mind excludes being sacked.
Therefore when i'm ready to leave i'll be posting a question on this forum, title of which will be 'suggestions for amusing ways to get sacked'

 

[julesverne]

if you left wthin 6 months then in all fairness your employer has a right to be miffed whether he would be succesful in getting the money would be another matter.

for a start your employer has no choice but to send you for re-assesment so you can carry on doing the job he pays you to do. so it could be argued by it is a necessary expence for the job fair or not and should have been accounted for.

the amount it would cost them in legal fees to claim the money back wouldnt be worth there while.

my thinking is that although it may not be morally right if you left after 6 months they wouldnt be able to get anything back from you. because although they have shelled out for you ACS re assesment they will have also profited from your work after that date and probably a lot more than what the training cost.

also bear in mind you might not get a reference from your employer should you move on

 

[AXTENK]

I'm seeing them on Wednesday to discuss this. I've told them I'm not signing the agreement until I agree with the contents. To conclude are we saying generally that its reasonable to agree to pay back course fees on a reducing scale but not including their lost profits and the wages they will pay me for the duration of the course and assessments. I will refer them to the JIB ACS training agreement posted by Tamz