Have I hired a cowboy?

[Sylvergrunge]

We have a leak in a central heating pipe under the tiled floor in our downstairs bathroom. The water was seeping up through the floor. I called a plumber and he lifted the tiles and dug to reveal the pipe and find the leak. He has repaired the leak using compression joints (also repaired larger 28mm pipe which he punctured when digging), which he says are more reliable than soldering, but we have had constant leaks from each pipe every time the water is turned back on. Water is now off and boiler not working, so he is due back today. I have researched and found that compression joints should not be used under concrete and joints should be soldered. I also read pipes should be protected with Denso tape, but he says they need no protection. He is also going to fill the hole with rapid set tiling adhesive before refitting the tiles. Am I right to be worried?

 

[Sylvergrunge]

For a start that's the lockshield valve, so you should probably be looking at changing the other one (the wheelhead valve)*. Secondly, you're measuring it wrong. Inside that big nut will be a hexagonal recess for a kind of large Allen key designed for removing radiator valve tails. The type of connexion your radiator has is now less common, so you'll need to wind out the whole valve tail which will screw into the radiator. The radiator itself finishes flush. You probably won't see the joint, because the tail has been painted over heavily.

Concerned you may be slightly out of your depth, but I suppose if you want to learn, it's not a bad place to start. Worst case scenario is you have to blank off the radiator pipe for a while and remain one radiator down - so if you aren't competent with fitting a compression stopend correctly first, buy a number of copper olives and a couple of compression stopends in 15mm size (will also work on 1/2") then you can practice on a scrap bit of pipe connected to a hose.

*I say probably because most TRVs can be fitted to either the flow or return of the radiator - some are directional, so you need to check the arrow on the body and make sure you fit it so it points in the direction of water flow which might mean you HAVE to fit it where the current lockshield valve is. Usually the lockshield valve will be on the return - the cooler end of the radiator.

Sorry, I know I put the wrong end in the pic. It was just easier ro show measurement on that end as I had just drained that rad from that end, and both sides are same valve length.

I appreciate your honesty saying I am out of my depth. I will happily try my hand at most things, but always happy to call in the experts if it is above me. Hence asking here first 😊 I'll just wait until I can finally get hold of an available local plumber and add it on to my jobs list for them 😆

 

[Sylvergrunge]

So, system drained. Pipe cleaned and sanded. Jenolite applied. Left to cure for a day and system refilled and sentinel leak sealer added. Heating and water put back on this evening. New leak spotted (other end of the same fixing) and quickly plugged with Jenolite and wrapped in Amalgamating tape. Old leak still active and back to its old tricks. I could cry 😔

 

[Ric2013]

I could cry 😔

You've got the pipe doing that for you though 🙂

It is seriously surprising how hard it is to hold back water even at a low pressure. I once tried to mend a stolen joint on a private supply that had only a few metres' head from the stream inlet to the joint by using some non-elastic denim pasted in silicone to seal the joint, a wrapping of old inner tube to cover the fabric, and then a wire binding to hold it all together and take the strain of the water pressure. I was convinced it would work, but it totally didn't. This wasn't a paid job, please note. I still need to learn the subtle art of bodging... some people can do stuff like this and have it last 30 years!

 

[WC1]

So, system drained. Pipe cleaned and sanded. Jenolite applied. Left to cure for a day and system refilled and sentinel leak sealer added. Heating and water put back on this evening. New leak spotted (other end of the same fixing) and quickly plugged with Jenolite and wrapped in Amalgamating tape. Old leak still active and back to its old tricks. I could cry 😔

This is how every plumber learns. (Not the tape and leak sealer bit, the bit where you do your best and really think you've got it sorted and it goes and leaks somewhere else)
It is hard.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

It is seriously surprising how hard it is to hold back water even at a low pressure.

I was convinced it had worked as was all bone dry for a while, then it found a pathway and boom!!!

I am normally a pretty good bodger, but plumbing is beyond me. I take my hat off to you guys.

We are at the point of calling in British Gas to put in a whole new system (combi boiler to get rid of the tank and the need for this stupid pipe) and bypass all the floor pipes completely. I am so done with this leak. My carpets are damp as it is now seeping up through the concrete floor in the hallway too 😔

 

[gmartine]

Sorry to hear that, can be hit or miss with these resins. Start over, do as you did with your prep making sure it's clean and dry. JB Weld will do it now you know where your leaks are. Make an impregnated wrap with the epoxy and wrap the fitting, stipple it with a brush or use gloves to apply. I 've used this a few times with no failures as long as it can dry cure.

Edit: fair enough but it still might be a while before you can get your system replaced but sound like you have other leaks too.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

Sorry to hear that, can be hit or miss with these resins. Start over, do as you did with your prep making sure it's clean and dry. JB Weld will do it now you know where your leaks are. Make an impregnated wrap with the epoxy and wrap the fitting, stipple it with a brush or use gloves to apply. I 've used this a few times with no failures as long as it can dry cure.

Edit: fair enough but it still might be a while before you can get your system replaced but sound like you have other leaks too.

How do I get the jenolite off now though? It is set rock solid and wrapped around the pipe!

 

[king of pipes]

Do you have home insurance ? Leakage of pipework and damage to your property should be covered ?? I would go with your gut and get it replaced, when plumbing start to deteriorate and leaks occur you will find even if you solve one problem water will find the next weak point and your back to square one, patches and resins are only a temporary repair in my book. Kop

 

[gmartine]

If it were me I'd probably go at it with a Dremel or pliers but if you can't get the resin off without further trashing the pipe then the only thing I can suggest is apply it over the top and hope. None of this is satisfactory of course, replacement of pipe or complete system renewel is best as you have concluded.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

Plumber number 3 due tomorrow for a temporary repair, just to give us breathing space before getting quotes for a whole new system with Combi boiler... hopefully! Wish me luck 🤞

 

[gmartine]

Drain the system before he arrives, he should be able to put in a new cross-over/bend at least even if it means doing a bit more excavating.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

Thabks for the advice. System is pretty much drained again anyway. Heating off til he arrives, thermals on again lol.

 

[Lou]

I think there is a bug in the latest version of the forum software. For the last few days it's not been possible to click-through to pictures/video from the thumbnails.

@Dan / @Lou – Are you aware of this issue?

Hi Chuck

Yes we are 🙂 Lots of behind the scenes action on all forums so you may notice things like this until we get them sorted out.

Thanks Lou

 

[akkeosflomdis]

What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.

Yep. Pinhole leak on the inside bend of one of the connections. Plumber 3 cut a large length of new pipe and replaced it. No leaks now thankfully. We are getting the whole system replaced in the New Year as this is the second leak in pipes buried under the concrete floor, and I am not going through all this again lol

 

[gpbeck]

If you get a new system make sure NO pipes are reused. There was some very poor quality copper pipe around 30-40 years ago.

 

[Sylvergrunge]

If you get a new system make sure NO pipes are reused. There was some very poor quality copper pipe around 30-40 years ago.

Thanks for the heads up. Had been thinking of keeping the upstairs ones in place as no issues there but maybe not the best idea then. 🤔

 

[freeoil]

This old thread is very interesting....you all abused the original plumber for using compression fittings {which is fine if used correctly.The second best fitting to solder} Now you are all suggesting tape wire jb weld epoxy and every other bodge under the sun lol. You all judged too quickly. The job is a disaster and the correct remedy is replace the complete system.Rads are 40 plus years old ffs.

 

[Dan]

I'm sure you're having a nice beer now? Maybe?

But less of the arsey posts please mate. Rule 1 of the forum; be nice.

 

[gmartine]

This old thread is very interesting....you all abused the original plumber for using compression fittings {which is fine if used correctly.The second best fitting to solder} Now you are all suggesting tape wire jb weld epoxy and every other bodge under the sun lol. You all judged too quickly. The job is a disaster and the correct remedy is replace the complete system.Rads are 40 plus years old ffs.

Everybody agreed the best remedy would be to replace the pipework but it was the first plumber that was paid and left the leaks/his fix unresolved. The bodge recommendations (mainly from me) were for a relatively unskilled but willing home owner to get out of a temporary bind when no plumbers seemed to be immediately available.

 

[Jerry]

Never fails to amaze me how little water/steam is needed to take all the heat out of a propane torch flame! I have a roughly 1m long, 12mm dia. length of silicone tubing that I push up the pipework as far as it will go and blow down it to purge water but it doesn't always work. Would love to hear about any other tricks...

Press or wet vac