honeywell zone valves

[southerly1]

Hello I have checked for items on this forum for problems with honeywell valves but didnt find any that related to a problem I have.
I am not a plumber I am a control systems qualified technician.
The problem I have is both with honeywell whos support is very poor. In not returning phone calls and what I think is the poor design of their zone valves.
Now they are a very cheap motorised valve but they should still work!
The basic problem with them seems to be that to open the valve it has to be energised, simples as the meercat says. I have had 3 of them burn out due I would suspect to being continually on for say 5 hours at a time. ( the motor is energised continually even though not turning whilst the valve is valve is called to open).
In order to (help) with this problem I used a change over micro switch on the end of the valve travel to switch a diode into the circuit, so that at the end of travel the motor supply is switched through the diode to reduce the power by half to the motor. By some strange trick of feat that motor did last twice as long as the first 2. It still burnt out eventually however.
Honeywell completely deny that this is happening with their valves I dont believe them. I also know that ASCO do make a valve that is sequential with a signal but they are expensive and are on /off very fast opening which is not as good for the system as the gradual opening of the honeywell. I was wondering if anyone else has had burn out problems with this honeywell, or that I am doing something stupid like by fitting a diode reducing the frequency of the applied voltage thereby reducing the Xl and actually increasing the power to the motor. Or am I talking rubbish as theres nothing wrong with the things.

 

[WHPES]

I have fitted loads of them in accordance with instructions and never had any problems with them other than after several years of service. The most common problem I find with them burning out is when the spindles become stiff and the motor has to work too hard to turn them. More often than not I find the gearing fails before the motor itself.

 

[steadyon]

Firstly, I assume you are referring to a two port valve, that is with one inlet and one outlet.

Honeywell are generally reckoned to be a manufacturer of reliable heating controls and are the first choice of many installers where the budget allows.

Nearly all zone valves use the constant energisation of a synchronous motor to hold the valves open. It is possible to get zone valves with a "Motor On, Motor Off" (MOMO) function, and Drayton (Invensys) do one.

However, if you change to MOMO valve(s), you will almost certainly have to change the wiring between the programmer and the valve(s), as you will need the CH ON, CH OFF, HW ON and HW OFF feeds.

 

[Puddle]

As said I have never had any problems with them,they are designed to stay energised and if your have been burning out (you do not say how often) then the problem cound be else were,as said, may be spindle stuck or actual head that you are fitting new syncron motor on to is damaged in some way
Maybe you should replace the complete valve and check cabling to valve is ok

IMHO

 

[stevetheplumber]

honeywell valves are probably better than most although i suspect all the motors are made in one place as said its usually the valve partialy stuck that burns out the motors

 

[southerly1]

I have replaced the complete valve once, and you are quite correct that honeywell have told me that they have never had a problem reported. I have still had 3 motors burn out. yet none on the y valve, which has lasted well. Thats why I was questioning the honeywell valve that I am using as a zone valve. I think that I will buy another motor and use a resistor to drop the voltage at the end of valve travel instead of a diode. that way I cannot have reactance problems, I dont think that the service from honeywell is very good as I have just had to change progtammers as the old one packed up and the new one is not a direct replacement. I should have just bought a new system from another manufacturer it would have been marginally cheaper. anyway thanks for your thoughts. regards

 

[southerly1]

Well the time has come again after 2 years to replace the motor in the HONEYWELL zone valve.
Now to all those who think honeywell are the best my tiny mind boggles as to how bad the others are. The programmer packed up as well that was expensive as I stupidly bought a honeywell one and couldnt use the honeywell wiring centre ( had to wire the whole lot up with chocolate blocks. So much for backward compatability
Needless to say the old programmer that works the zone valve is still going after 35 years, Thats got a shaded pole motor in it too. and hasnt burnt out.
In fact honeywell use a load of the same motors in chart drive recorders, I have never had to replace any of those. ASCO do make a latching valve which seems to work ok.
In short I think that the idea of power on the valve whilst open is poor design, and leads to premature failure. Probably a good earner every 15 months or so. Sooner or later someone will come along with an aftermarket PIC, which will do the job at 10% of the cost.
#1 son is now training as a plumber.

 

[mfgs]

I have fitted alot of honeywell valves and had very few issues. The only times I have seen repeated failure of the motor is with a very dirty, sludged up system. Perhaps that could be the underlying cause of this?

 

[gassafe]

If your that unhappy with the Honeywell 2 port valve try a different make! I recommend a Drayton, and the head is easier to remove than the Honeywell models!

Mfgs may be right about the sludge build up if your components are giving up so frequently!!

 

[kirkgas]

Well the time has come again after 2 years to replace the motor in the HONEYWELL zone valve.
Now to all those who think honeywell are the best my tiny mind boggles as to how bad the others are. The programmer packed up as well that was expensive as I stupidly bought a honeywell one and couldnt use the honeywell wiring centre ( had to wire the whole lot up with chocolate blocks. So much for backward compatability
Needless to say the old programmer that works the zone valve is still going after 35 years, Thats got a shaded pole motor in it too. and hasnt burnt out.
In fact honeywell use a load of the same motors in chart drive recorders, I have never had to replace any of those. ASCO do make a latching valve which seems to work ok.
In short I think that the idea of power on the valve whilst open is poor design, and leads to premature failure. Probably a good earner every 15 months or so. Sooner or later someone will come along with an aftermarket PIC, which will do the job at 10% of the cost.
#1 son is now training as a plumber.

rather than a quick fix of changing the valve, get the water problem sorted, what is the water history of the job, when was it last changed, was inhibitor fitted has the system ever been professionally cleansed, once all these things are sorted you will have no prob with honeywell 2 port valves, there are many many of these in service for 10yrs plus which never cause any problem, have you ever had a professional check your system or do you prefer the quickfix DIY option of simply changing components?
a girl i knew had 6 punctures in the same wheel in about 10 days, she couldnt work out what was going on till her brother looked in her drive and found broken glass where she parked every day, she never thought to look but simply went to garages to get puntures fixed

 

[SafeGasInstall]

have fitted lots of honeywell valves ,and they are my first choice so is the rest of honeywell products !
why slag them and keep buying it I dont get ,Why dont use what you mention as ASCO ! Are you some kind of sells rep for this company trying to slag Honeywell ????????????????????????????????

 

[SimonJohns]

What voltage are you sending to the valve

What connections are you using

What control system are you using, trend / siemens etc or are you using relays and contactors?

Got quite a bit of experience with this and may be able to help with a little more info


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[southerly1]

Looks like I struck a nerve here, good. The system is clean and yes i have at one time replaced the whole valve, the problem is not that the valve is stuck, I have the issue with the valve continually running, which I think is at best a silly design. To run a motor against a dead stop for say 6 hours is a lot to ask of any motor, what it needs is to run to the stop and then consume just enough energy to hold it there, the energy required to shift it is normally considerably more than that required to hold it in position. Yes the valve works and yes for a motorised valve its fairly cheap. Today I purchased a new motor from toolstation, which I shall fit shortly, like one man says there are other valves, that generally means changing pipework which I dont really want to do.
I do also take notice that a lot of people like honeywell quite a lot I guess thats what makes us humans. I had to completely strip the thermocouple valve the other day, thats honeywell as well, as it was blocked by a very small amount of pipe scale, Thats fine now not an easy job but the thought of a £200 replacement spurred me on. I will drop the voltage slightly more on the zone valve, when it in the hold position to see if it lasts longer than 2 years this time.

 

[southerly1]

Sorry just read the last thread,
Originally fitted ( honeywell zone valve with single pole microswitch I changed the microswitch so that on making the open limit it then maintained its position through a changeover microswitch with a diode in series the idea of this was to drop the voltage to the motor in the open position while still holding the valve open, It did work, I did however feel at the time that it may have Xl issues as the frequency had effectively halved, which may cause it to draw more current it rather depends on the Xl R ratio, I am now going to fit a resistor instead of a diode to see if this improves longevity, something that I feel honeywell could have done years before. best regards
john

 

[buckley plumb]

you should see the seimens or myson ones they are terrible.honeywell the best

ant

 

[PlumbBobBob]

totally agree, honeywell every time for me.

 

[BLOD]

have to agree with the others on here, i find honeywell valves very reliable.
If your motor is burning out every couple of years then I think you're either very unlucky or there's something
that needs sorting with your system.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I do think if you fit your valve and let alone will last min of 5 years ,As I have not replace any Honeywell valve which is less then 5 years old I think ( speaking of two port valves )And never had call back after fitting Honeywell !

 

[capitanpugwash]

If it helps put your mind to rest, I have 4 zone valves made by Horstmann. I have replaced 3 or 4 of the motors and one of the bodies in 3 years, so they don't last any better. My system is as clean as a whistle so they are just a bit rubbish....

 

[kimbo]

I fitted I think it was a sunvic they use the same synchron motor but it turns a quarter of a turn and then switches off so the motor is not continually energised, they have obviously recognised there is a problem and in theory it should extend the life of the motor.As far as I recall there was nothing different with the wiring.
Motorised valves for domestic central heating system – Sunvic Controls

 

[SabreHeatingLtd]

You say your not a plumber, no doubt if you were, like me and many other Engineers you would have come across Honeywell valve which are over 20 years old and still working fine, if there was a problem with the design it would have been changed by now! Like others have said get your system clean, fit a new valve, don't make any alterations to it (it's made like it is for a reason!) and you should be ok! BTW, what system do you have which has a 3 port and a 2 port valve?

 

[GrahamM]

As others have mentioned, honeywell valves set the benchmark for quality & reliability. You are either very unlucky or there is some other underlying issue to your problems.
Can you give a rundown on your heating system, model, age etc. and pics of the valve setup would be useful.

 

[BLOD]

what system do you have which has a 3 port and a 2 port valve?

y plan with unvented cylinder maybe ?

 

[southerly1]

I understand that some of these valves last forever, last week I was working on in one place that had eight zone valves all of which has been rolls royceing ? along for some 15 years. The only possible difference between then and mine is that the ambient temperature was considerably cooler. And of course I have never fitted genuine honeywell motors.

 

[UKenGB]

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP as I too have found Honeywell valve motors failing with unacceptable frequency. I only have one 2 port valve but am now on the third motor in as many years.
Like the OP I am not impressed with the idea of the motor constantly straining to hold the valve open which also appears to me a totally crap design and most replies on this thread that hail Honeywell as making such good valves have totally ignored the point being made. As for the typically dismissive replies that blame the rest of the system (dirty water etc) or the fact that the OP isn't a 'professional' plumber, well, that's really helpful. Perhaps one of you 'professionals' can explain why a stiff valve might hurt a motor when the device is designed so the motor simply strains against the valve body when it stops and makes no difference to the motor whether that is due to a stiff valve or the valve being fully open?
In any case, I can point out that I have had the valve head disconnected from the body since I replaced the last motor. It occurred to me that it made no difference to what the system provided and allowed me to check the operation of the valve's electrics independent of any possible problem with the valve body. I can now report that the head is already making bad noises as it 'opens' (just the head, no valve body attached remember) and sounds really nasty as it strains against the mechanism when fully 'open'.
This is SUCH a bad design I came looking here to see if my understanding is correct and non professional that I am, it appears I am correct in my analysis of this appalling design in which while so 'activated', the motor actually becomes too hot to touch. Well sorry, but it matters not that some of you have found these valves reliable, this is NOT good design
.I'm not about to delve into the wiring to eliminate the valve since we should soon be extending the house and moving all the CH controls etc, so for now I just want it to keep working till then, but not convinced the motor will last that long :-( In the future, I guess I'll take a look at the sunvic valves, or any other that manage to hold open with a more elegant design. Or is there some magic solution that we've missed?

 

[southerly1]

well the last guy doesnt like them at all. I contacted Honeywell, and guess what and I quote"we have never had any trouble with motors burning out". Yes thats what they said!
People can bury their heads in the sand and say what wonderful clothes the king has on and kid themselves forever.
best of luck to them. I am a qualified process control systems technician, two full techs, and i say the design is not good, and I am not changing my mind, like the man said before so what if the valve is stuck the motor runs anyway( the valve is or rather was not stuck). and there are far better engineering solutions, ( that would raise the price by about £5 ) The truth is that Honeywell will not do anything about them until fools stop buying them. And that is the end of chat.
best regards

 

[kimbo]

As I said before on page 2 this appears to be what you are after.
Motorised valves for domestic central heating system – Sunvic Controls

 

[southerly1]

Yes Kimbo you are correct the sunvic looks like a much better valve, next year when the honeywell has burnt out again ( although now there is not a honeywell motor in it its a "generic" motor) honeywell are far too expensive. I will replace it with the type you recommend.
Now isnt that what forums are for! To further the art, and get things working better. My #1 son is on a plumbers course now and i have spoken to him that its well worth fitting additional valves to help maintain the system and a low point catchpot and drain.
He is of the opinion that he is going to put it all in cheap and then charge for repair, I just hope he sees sense before he completes the course.
Just one final point about Honeywells policy, For domestic installations It must be very price driven and plumbers get massive discounts on retail, so theres not a lot of money in it for honeywell. For example they make loads of different microswitches all of different qualities from the one on the door of your washing machine to the one on the door of the space shuttle, they all look the same, but are vastly different.
i will buy a sunvic one they have been making controls for ages if i remember correctly sunvic made the original simmerstats for electric cookers.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i was told all the synchron motors are made in one factory in canada
never had a problem with honeywell valves good reliable kit

 

[southerly1]

I would suspect that they are made in china now not that that makes any difference. I have worked a lt with synchron motors usually the only fault that occurs is after a long time all the teeth get bent, I have even worked with switchable pole ones.
Now as stated before I am not a plumber, I am an instrument technician working with gas to 15000 psig down to gas at a vacuum. I also work with industrial control systems including honeywell TDC. I am going to change the honeywell one for the type as suggested.
I started the link to try and get the valve to work with some reliability.
I will still play with it as I feel that if I run it to the stop then disconnect the ac voltage and switch in a low dc voltage to lock the rotor enough to stay where it is until the rotor is released then the valve could spring return to its shut position. Some of the comments I have found and others have as well a bit silly.Others have been more than helpful. I have also seen a bank of 10 of them all working away with only a few failures over about 10 years, perhaps I have been unlucky, as I usually buy the generic motors, rather than the expensive genuine ones, they both fail at the same rate. When i contacted Honeywell I maybe wrong but my impression was that the chap was more of a sales type of person rather than a technical one.
I really think this thread is closed now, as for honeywell, I will go elsewhere come to think of it I have had three programmers as well, lcd readouts that you cannot read and relays sticking. Just as well the old potterton keeps working ok and the grundfoss pump has never missed a beat. thats it the fin