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How many people are thinking of doing renewables this year
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View the thread, titled "How many people are thinking of doing renewables this year" which is posted in Renewables on UK Plumbers Forums.
Its just a pity they are taking so long to get it out there. Until colleges start providing the course then there is no real alternative to the BPEC ones in order to get started with renewables. I think Ill probably take the course when it arrives though, looks good from what Ive read.
F
fuzzy
i believe the C&G's course is aligned to NOS National Occupational Standards and QCF and the others are not. I suppose you get what you pay for, my feeling is this is an attempt to get away from fast track such as 1 day courses and make it more worthwhile. My own thoughts on education is its their to provide us with the skills, not a case of get in and out with the cert as quick as i can. I do see people complain about poor skills of fellow plumbers/trainees and then want their ACS in an hour!!! We are hypercritical at times, I want a proper courses, learn something in depth and I expect to pay more and learn more as a consequence
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tackleburger
Time served plumbers shouldn't be having to pay £2k to get a ticket for installing renewables of any kind. 90% of the install is the same as you have done in any plumbing related equivelant. I don't get this at all I did the solar course and all I learned was angles of the roof, sun etc positions of stats working out sizing etc. nothing difficult complete con I felt. There really is no need for certification, that was a joke no more than a tick test i got 100% and was finished in about 1/2 an hour including the commisioning list etc. Honestly it's getting ridiculous a decent set of MIs can easily cover most of what you need to know ans lets face it we were fitting solar in the eighties until gas got cheap so it's hardly new. after my last ACS I wonder about that too really.
H
Hybrid
I'm tired of being bled from every artery. It's bad enough having to pay someone to tell me i'm capable of doing my job but to have them meddling in how I run my business is too much.
I'm a sole trader, there's no admin department I can task with handling the QMS.
I spend enough unpaid time preparing quotes and keeping abreast of new regs and technologies without agonising over risk assessments, health and safety policies, method statements etc. I have children and a wife i'd like to see occassionally.
All in all just another way the small business is being destroyed. If it's not Tesco moving into everything from selling cars to upvc windows it's the government throwing up insurmountable obstacles preventing me from earning an honest wage and providing a good service at a reasonable price.
I'm a sole trader, there's no admin department I can task with handling the QMS.
I spend enough unpaid time preparing quotes and keeping abreast of new regs and technologies without agonising over risk assessments, health and safety policies, method statements etc. I have children and a wife i'd like to see occassionally.
All in all just another way the small business is being destroyed. If it's not Tesco moving into everything from selling cars to upvc windows it's the government throwing up insurmountable obstacles preventing me from earning an honest wage and providing a good service at a reasonable price.
Ialso have no qualifications in heatpumps, and I am still not MCS accredited, I have no QMS and I am not paying REAL £200 a year, However I am installing MCS accredited heat pumps and signning them off on to the MCS register, therefore I am living proof that the MCS is not fit for purpose No I am not a cowboy, but because of the insistance of this rediculous idea that renewables should be a seperate industry I am going to fight this the only way I know by refusing to join it and carry on the way I have been, there fore in the eyes of the governing bodies I must be a cowboy, Yeehaw!!!!!!!!!!!
F
fuzzy
i may be on my own here but i dont think people really understand the reasoning behind these short courses. they are there to help installers not provide an opportunity to fail. They are designed to teach people and get them the skills and knowledge required. You need to be qualified before taking these courses so its presumed you already know alot, you wouldnt agree with them testing you again surely? The assessments are not to be difficult as its only an award, as opposed to a diploma. the alternative is one of two things:
- Make it much more difficult to pass the course
- Not bother because we are already plumbers
- less people would take it or pass it and create more un qualified installers without the basic underpinning knowledge the current system gives us
- we would then complain anyone can do it, it would probably lead to more cowboys
F
fuzzy
[DLMURL="http://www.summitskills.org.uk/public/cms/File/Renewables/employer%20brochure%20final%20version.pdf"]http://www.summitskills.org.uk/public/cms/File/Renewables/employer%20brochure%20final%20version.pdf
i[/DLMURL] think they do realise its part of out industry but want the installers to be highly skilled. I agree with most people on here but feel there is some hypocrisy. there are always people who can self train and reach high standards but we must have some control
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I agree with the need for control and as our Industry stands the only control is used against registerd installers not the real cowboys so as Long as I stay unregistered I have no fear of any type of prosecution and considering that our industry is completely being regulated the wrong way round I have no respect for the powers that be
C&G 2399 is still a fast track course when compared to a 4 year apprenticeship why should I be required to do this or a BPEC course to learn about another heat source when I already know how to design and size a heating system. A manufacturers 1 day course which covers the commisioning of a particular heat pump is far more useful and a damn sight cheaper.
T
tackleburger
Fair points however the solar thermal course which cost the thick end of £500 taught me nothing in reality so I for one don't think that course is worth anything. ACS I guess you are right but it is still a bit of a joke and some of the guys who get through I wouldn't have in my house. I can't comment on other renewables because I haven't attend the courses.
I would suggest that qualified plumbers can go to the manufacturers and get taught for free. I learned as much in a day with Alpha for free as I did doing the BPEC course. There has to be a better way is all I am suggesting and you are right to challenge my thoughts but the current systems clearly have major flaws and disadvantage sole traders for sure.
You're dead right tackleburger most of the problems with heat pumps are because they are undersized and not commisioned properly a manufacturers course would cover this whereas BPEC and LOGIC courses wont cover the commisioning side of things.
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fuzzy
C&G does cover commissioning. Once again i can only point out the few choices we have, i seem to be on my own thinking the 2399 is a good option but the other option of not bothering with them opens the door to more people to do them, we cannot then complian of unfair competition?
1 regulation body which covers every aspect of the installation should be in place, but is that ever going to happen after all alot of office workers will be out of jobs ? and what is going to happen to all the other bodys ??
F
fuzzy
but 2399 does and is related directly to national occupational standards
another point to note about the 4 year training, the new quals you can choose to have a renewable option or gas, if you chose 1 you can always do the other after. there is so much in the plumbing diploma already we couldnt possibly add more
Thes bodies are all appointed and why should anyone loose their jobs for example you could have one body with a gassafe section, oil section and so on there is no reason why anyone would become unemployed also another thing is when the government say they are talking to industry experts, who are these so called experts, cos you can guarantee they are not installers at the sharp end of the industry
H
Hybrid
I'd settle for a regulator for work dealing with combustion (gas, oil, soild fuel) and another dealing with plumbing (Water regs, unvented, solar etc)
Fuzzy is right however that qualifications have become undervalued. Whether or not you pay to join a regulating body shouldn't be a measure of competence.
Fuzzy is right however that qualifications have become undervalued. Whether or not you pay to join a regulating body shouldn't be a measure of competence.
we will end up spending more time on training then work ,and spending more £ on training/licences/insurance then tools ....just seems crazy
can we not just get on with our work and have a good weekend off !
can we not just get on with our work and have a good weekend off !
F
fuzzy
i like the weekend off yeh, lol.
Im not sure what more I can add, i feel we are hypocritical, me included at times, we want it easier, cheaper, without cowboys, available only to the ones skilled but without having to do a qual etc etc. I dont see it being cleared up anytime soon, so we have to make the most of it
Im not sure what more I can add, i feel we are hypocritical, me included at times, we want it easier, cheaper, without cowboys, available only to the ones skilled but without having to do a qual etc etc. I dont see it being cleared up anytime soon, so we have to make the most of it
G
gaspastemania
Theirs to many builders doing plumbing work now along with the public doing all thier own small works. Concern i have is do you need a plumbing qaulification to do ground source or solar? ( couldnt be bothered to read all threads so apologise if been mentioned already).If you dont then again anyone can do these courses leaving us high n dry.
H
Hybrid
I think we're just a bit frustrated that the regulation we all signed up to in good faith hasn't been enforced. These bodies have taken our money and all they've given us is various plastic cards.
If they clamped down on the building regs, gas regs and water regs it would weed out 99.9% of cowboys. As it is no-one gives a monkeys.
I lost a full refurb job once because I insisted on putting check valves on the supplies to the bidet, outside tap and washing machine and I wouldn't notch a joist to accommodate a 50mm waste. That's not counting the jobs i've lost because I wouldn't site a boiler where the terminal clearance was insufficient.
I'm sick to the back teeth of playing by the rules.
If they clamped down on the building regs, gas regs and water regs it would weed out 99.9% of cowboys. As it is no-one gives a monkeys.
I lost a full refurb job once because I insisted on putting check valves on the supplies to the bidet, outside tap and washing machine and I wouldn't notch a joist to accommodate a 50mm waste. That's not counting the jobs i've lost because I wouldn't site a boiler where the terminal clearance was insufficient.
I'm sick to the back teeth of playing by the rules.
I have to say that I am dissapointed that more people are not up in arms about the above statement. Yes all of the above is true and what Fuzzy has been saying is quite right the need for trainning is essential, asI have said before I am inspecting MCS accredited engineers work and some of the fundamental mistakes that I am finding made by experianced heating engineers does cause dismay, Also the fact that the bodies that are regulating the the MCS are more concerend that you follow the paperwork side of an installation than the actual problems of a heatpump installaion or the system or property that the heatpump is installed onto.
M
MickW
The RHPP grant has been announced today and runs from Aug 1st to March next year, so unless a small business is already accredited, there is not likely to be enough time to get accredited, do an installation and get the claim in before the cut off date.
Plenty of time, of course, for the big boys to pretty much charge what they want, because there are virtually no small businesses to give them any competition.
Plenty of time, of course, for the big boys to pretty much charge what they want, because there are virtually no small businesses to give them any competition.
its a sad state of affairs really, because the customers are only going to pay huge prices and will take them even longer to make their money back
M
MickW
Yes, back in boiler scrappage days, the utilities were on average one third more expensive than independents and in some parts of the country 60% more expensive.
T
That Extra Mile
That'll make it even more difficult for anyone to justify the extra costs involved in installing renewables, even with the financial incentives. The market may never get going.
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