Illegal hot water tank install

[nick.batchelor]

Just had a dodgy builder install a hot water tank using a plumber who isn't G3 certified. They then got g3 gas Safe registered engineer commission it, but it doesn't meet building regs (wrong discharge pipe, plastic not metal) and he didn't register it with building control. Any ideas who I can report this guy to? Gas Safe aren't interested as it didn't break gas legislation (though they are going after the builder for illegal gas installation).


Thanks.

 

[Scott_D]

Any pics?
Who said it doesn’t meet regs?

 

[nick.batchelor]

Any pics?
Who said it doesn’t meet regs?

3 gas safe engineers with G3 qualifications (including the regional gas safe inspector). Basically the discharge pipe is bog standard plastic and not metal / high heat resistant plastic and they didn't register with building regs. Plus the pipework for the metal pipework from the turndish has a bend in it apparently.

 

[Aire]

What plastic has been used? You can use waste pipe so long as it's adequately clipped.

 

[nick.batchelor]

3 gas safe engineers with G3 qualifications (including the regional gas safe inspector). Basically the discharge pipe is bog standard plastic and not metal / high heat resistant plastic and they didn't register with building regs. Plus the pipework for the metal pipework from the turndish has a bend in it apparently.

 

[Alex-Gas]

Have you already paid for the installation?

 

[nick.batchelor]

Have you already paid for the installation?

Haven't paid the builder fully get, but that was just one of the many f*** ups they did. Really more concerned about the dodgy G3 guy who filled in the commission paperwork, but crossed out the section for the build regs cert and failed to register it. I know gas safe will be talking to him re the dodgy gas work he came to inspect and left us with without telling us it was completely illegal and unsafe, but wondered if I need to report to someone for G3 or just trading standards?

 

[Chuck]

What plastic has been used? You can use waste pipe so long as it's adequately clipped.

3.57 The discharge pipe (D2) should be made of: (a) metal; or (b) other material that has been demonstrated to be capable of safely withstanding temperatures of the water discharged and is clearly and permanently marked to identify the product and performance standard (e.g. as specified in the relevant part of BS 7291- 1:2006 Thermostatic pipes and fittings for hot and cold water for domestic purposes and heating installations in buildings. General requirements).

 

[nick.batchelor]

3.57 The discharge pipe (D2) should be made of: (a) metal; or (b) other material that has been demonstrated to be capable of safely withstanding temperatures of the water discharged and is clearly and permanently marked to identify the product and performance standard (e.g. as specified in the relevant part of BS 7291- 1:2006 Thermostatic pipes and fittings for hot and cold water for domestic purposes and heating installations in buildings. General requirements).

Yup; had 3 G3 qualified engineers confirm that ain't the case

 

[Scott_D]

So it was commissioned or he looked at it and walked away?

 

[Aire]

3.57 The discharge pipe (D2) should be made of: (a) metal; or (b) other material that has been demonstrated to be capable of safely withstanding temperatures of the water discharged and is clearly and permanently marked to identify the product and performance standard (e.g. as specified in the relevant part of BS 7291- 1:2006 Thermostatic pipes and fittings for hot and cold water for domestic purposes and heating installations in buildings. General requirements).

What's your point?

 

[Aire]

Yup; had 3 G3 qualified engineers confirm that ain't the case

The plastic used is wrong, pushfit can be used, not solvent. Hence me asking what plastic was used.

 

[Chuck]

What's your point?

That there was more to the requirement than your post implied.

 

[nick.batchelor]

So it was commissioned or he looked at it and walked away?

He filled in the tank's paperwork to say it met building regs (which it didn't), didn't register it and then walked away.

 

[Welder]

What plastic has been used? You can use waste pipe so long as it's adequately clipped.

Unf you cannot use just any pipe as the D2. It must be able to stand appropriate temps for the designated periods. The correct pipe has a special designation. There is currently much debate over whether an internal soil stack can take hi temps for long periods.

The 'test' is nothing like one could even imagine as a worst case scenario...

 

[nick.batchelor]

Unf you cannot use just any pipe as the D2. It must be able to stand appropriate temps for the designated periods. The correct pipe has a special designation. There is currently much debate over whether an internal soil stack can take hi temps for long periods.

The 'test' is nothing like one could even imagine as a worst case scenario...

There's no question that it didn't meet building regs. Just wondering if there is an equivalent to gas safety register for G3 installs that I can report him to?

 

[nick.batchelor]

Unf you cannot use just any pipe as the D2. It must be able to stand appropriate temps for the designated periods. The correct pipe has a special designation. There is currently much debate over whether an internal soil stack can take hi temps for long periods.

The 'test' is nothing like one could even imagine as a worst case scenario...

There's no question that it didn't meet building regs. Just wondering if there is an equivalent to gas safety register for G3 installs that I can report him to?

 

[Welder]

Any ideas who I can report this guy to? Gas Safe aren't interested as it didn't break gas legislation (though they are going after the builder for illegal gas installation)

Seems to me you are convinced you have all the answers so I am at a loss as to why you come here.

You have done your bit by involving gas safe and patently local building control are involved too. There is nothing we can add to that or frankly would wish to. We are not there so we cannot comment other than to tut our way through your tale of woe.

Good luck.

 

[Aire]

Unf you cannot use just any pipe as the D2. It must be able to stand appropriate temps for the designated periods. The correct pipe has a special designation. There is currently much debate over whether an internal soil stack can take hi temps for long periods.

The 'test' is nothing like one could even imagine as a worst case scenario...

no arguments with that but currently you can use waste pipe as the d2 discharge, needs to be polypropylene and manufactured to en 1451 which we now know op's doesn't conform to this but my post was before we found that out 🙄

 

[nick.batchelor]

Really was only wondering if there is a body like gas safe that covers hot water tank installs as gas safe don't get involved in that. Local building control are involved at this stage

 

[Welder]

Really was only wondering if there is a body like gas safe that covers hot water tank installs as gas safe don't get involved in that. Local building control are involved at this stage

Unf none. It's local BC.

 

[WC1]

G3 is a building regulation. So building control are the enforcing authority.

 

[nick.batchelor]

Unf none. It's local BC.

Ta. Many thanks.

 

[WC1]

Snap!

 

[chris watkins]

Really was only wondering if there is a body like gas safe that covers hot water tank installs as gas safe don't get involved in that. Local building control are involved at this stage

Unfortunately there isn't unless the person who installed it is registered under a Competent Persons Scheme which they won't be.
If you paid the builder for the work to install the cylinder you will need to go back to them for redress as they would / should be aware that the installation falls under AD Part G (3) & it is notifiable.
If you paid for it yourself then you didn't carry out the due diligent tests to ensure that the person carrying out the work was competent to do so, unfortunately it will be down to you to get it corrected & notified as you are the house owner.

 

[WC1]

These people are around. They give us all a bad name. If one is operating in your neighbourhood best reporting might be to your friends and neighbours.

 

[SimonG]

Always two sides to a story, obviously poor work if gas safe involved (don't hold your breath) and wrong discharge pipe material, however just to quell my curiosity, were the works carried out by the cheapest quote?

 

[nick.batchelor]

Always two sides to a story, obviously poor work if gas safe involved (don't hold your breath) and wrong discharge pipe material, however just to quell my curiosity, were the works carried out by the cheapest quote?

Nope; was the middle priced and the whole build was project managed (laughable).

 

[SimonG]

Nope; was the middle priced and the whole build was project managed (laughable).

Curiosity quelled. Thankyou.

 

[king of pipes]

When your area gas safe representative vists to do a inspection point out your concerns these faults will need to rectified by a G3 engineer and any gas faults by a gas safe registered company , I have had experience of this having corrected a few installations the original installers had to repay a good percentage of the install costs and agree to retrain or lose their registration, their future installs are then inspected to make sure they meet a decent standard workmanship and all the regulations, believe me this is a real PITA and it will really make them think twice before breaking any future regulations . Kop

 

[TMHM]

Novice Q here, but why are gas-safe involved in a hot water tank, which I would have thought would be water (plumbing) rather than gas. Gas not being involved in a storage tank?


(never too old to learn 🙂)

 

[Welder]

Novice Q here, but why are gas-safe involved in a hot water tank, which I would have thought would be water (plumbing) rather than gas. Gas not being involved in a storage tank?


(never too old to learn 🙂)

The cynic in me says it's because it's simply a potential income stream 😱

 

[king of pipes]

Hot water cylinders are notifiable to building control so if you have the relevant qualifications recognised by Gas safe, then you can self certify the installation meaning it is fitted to the manufacturers instructions , the benchmark has been completed and the warranty registerd Gas Safe will issue a certificate of compliance like this . Cheers kop

 

[TMHM]

When replacing a hot water tank, how many peeps notify BC. Maybe you should, but replacing an existing unit...... How many do?

 

[king of pipes]

The cynic in me says it's because it's simply a potential income stream 😱

Hello Dave you ok mate explained that one ok bud ha ha 😀 but as you say its all a money making exercise, but on the other hand someone has to police it we all know for every cylinder registerd theres probably ten times more that dont . Cheers kop

 

[king of pipes]

When replacing a hot water tank, how many peeps notify BC. Maybe you should, but replacing an existing unit.... How many do?

Agreed but it causes problems if you should want to sell the property the solicitor will want to see that certificate of compliance and a paper trail back to the installer it helps to keep the installations to a certain standard, but many get fitted and forgot about as you say. Kop

 

[TMHM]

Agreed but it causes problems if you should want to sell the property the solicitor will want to see that certificate of compliance and a paper trail back to the installer it helps to keep the installations to a certain standard, but many get fitted and forgot about as you say. Kop

Lord help me here then, House is 60 years old and very little in the way of "certification". Whether work carried out "professionally" or by me.

 

[chris watkins]

Agreed but it causes problems if you should want to sell the property the solicitor will want to see that certificate of compliance and a paper trail back to the installer it helps to keep the installations to a certain standard, but many get fitted and forgot about as you say. Kop

Also ever tried making a warrantee claim on an unregistered cylinder (or for that matter a boiler).

I don't think householders realises that it is their responsibility as the owner to ensure work that requires notification is.

It is a shame a few more of them are prosecuted when this doesn't happen, it might make the rest think twice about employing those that can't or don't self certifier!!
It would also maybe encourage those who don't do things properly to do so.!!

 

[TMHM]

Also ever tried making a warrantee claim on an unregistered cylinder (or for that matter a boiler).

I don't think householders realises that it is their responsibility as the owner to ensure work that requires notification is.

It is a shame a few more of them are prosecuted when this doesn't happen, it might make the rest think twice about employing those that can't or don't self certifier!!
It would also maybe encourage those who don't do things properly to do so.!!

Without disagreeing, how many householders know all the intracasies of plummbing law, gas law, building regs, etc?
Is that not the reason to go to those that should?

 

[chris watkins]

Without disagreeing, how many householders know all the intracasies of plummbing law, gas law, building regs, etc?
Is that not the reason to go to those that should?

Absolutely, the problem as we know is anyone in this country can call themselves a Plumber so Joe public can't see the wood from the trees.

I did make the Law of the Land all I can tell you, & them, is that the first port of call for a prosecution for a breach of them is the property owner. And just saying I employed someone calling themselves a Plumber would not be seen as a defence on its own.

 

[TMHM]

Absolutely, the problem as we know is anyone in this country can call themselves a Plumber so Joe public can't see the wood from the trees.

I did make the Law of the Land all I can tell you, & them, is that the first port of call for a prosecution for a breach of them is the property owner. And just saying I employed someone calling themselves a Plumber would not be seen as a defence on its own.

you might find that if someone was trading as a plumber, they might be considered as an "expert".

 

[chris watkins]

you might find that if someone was trading as a plumber, they might be considered as an "expert".

They might very well be & then again they might be a 2 week wonder learning at as they go. Unfortunately they have no effective way of telling one from the other, hence all the problems in this industry.

 

[Aire]

They might very well be & then again they might be a 2 week wonder learning at as they go. Unfortunately they have no effective way of telling one from the other, hence all the problems in this industry.

Same with gas installers too, I have never once been asked to see my gas safe I.D card. Too many customers either don't care or are too trusting with taking the plumbers/engineers word.

 

[malx42]

“Someone suggested that if a house is sold the solicitor will want a complete chain of certification”. Being involved with two house purchases recently, this doesn’t seem to be the case. If there is any case of something missing then the vendors solicitor will arrange indemnity insurance, so that if building regs become aware of anything untoward, then the policy will pay to put things right. As long as you don’t dig too far and ask buildings regs before purchase about any probs you might suspect. Most old houses would have something not complying, if you dig too far and ask too many questions you couldn’t buy a house.

A friend sold her house and her solicitor got an indemnity insurance for the electrics. Presumably this is cheaper and easier to do then getting wiring inspected and faults fixed.

I will make a post entitled “fixed 2l per min underfloor leak” and detail some nasties I came across.

 

[Riley]

When replacing a hot water tank, how many peeps notify BC. Maybe you should, but replacing an existing unit.... How many do?

Those that do it properly

 

[TMHM]

Those that do it properly

Now that’s where I have a problem. I have replaced our HWT (about 30 years ago) and I never notified BC, because I only found out that I should yesterday, on here.
Although not a trained plumber, I did the job as well as, if not better, than many a “professional”. That could be due to being a Chartered Engineer.

 

[Riley]

And that’s how you poke the bears. If you’d had the necessary training and installation experience you’d have known the rules re notification. Being an engineer does not give you the right to do what you like and bypass licenses to work. Competence is key and you’ve proved you didn’t have it

 

[Riley]

If it was a vented cylinder then you should be alright if it’s unvented then oh dear oh dear

 

[TMHM]

And that’s how you poke the bears. If you’d had the necessary training and installation experience you’d have known better. Being an engineer does not give you the right to do what you like

I agree entirely, but I do have, at least an understanding of the principles involved and this was a “like for like” replacement.
I am not having a dig at you guys, just saying that I was not aware before yesterday of any requirement.
I realise that there are also professionals that are professional and have pride in their work. I also have been caught out by cowboys, like the OP and had to redo work to make it acceptable.
This is a really helpful forum and will continue to learn.

 

[Riley]

It’s when you start adding things like “professionals”. We get a lot of engineers on here who think they are holier than thou and think they can’t be touched and supposedly know how to turn their hand to anything. Pure and simply we all have to do and renew our qualifications to ensure that we are up to speed with current legislation so why should these engineers be allowed to think that they are above the law, which is essentially what they do. I’m not saying that all plumbers are the same in terms of quality but the governing bodies could do so much more to educate the public as much as have a go heroes as to who they need for the job and the qualifications that they require.

 

[Riley]

In response I’m not having a go at you but a little respect please, as you’ve realised, you need relevant training to understand these facets from the pipework and sizing all the way down to the necessary commissioning and notification documentation. You saying you understand the principles is like me saying I understand what keeps a plane in the air however an aviation engineer I am not

 

[TMHM]

It’s when you start adding things like “professionals”. We get a lot of engineers on here who think they are holier than thou and think they can’t be touched and supposedly know how to turn their hand to anything. Pure and simply we all have to do and renew our qualifications to ensure that we are up to speed with current legislation so why should these engineers be allowed to think that they are above the law, which is essentially what they do. I’m not saying that all plumbers are the same in terms of quality but the governing bodies could do so much more to educate the public as much as have a go heroes as to who they need for the job and the qualifications that they require.

My use of the term professional was merely to define someone that was in the business of plumbing as an occupation, rather than a mere amateur home owner such as myself.
As I said I wasn’t having a dig. Although I am sure we can all agree that the quality of work carried out by professionals in all occupations varies immensely

 

[Chuck]

And that’s how you poke the bears. If you’d had the necessary training and installation experience you’d have known the rules re notification. Being an engineer does not give you the right to do what you like and bypass licenses to work. Competence is key and you’ve proved you didn’t have it

Remind me, what were the rules for notification of replacement of an existing hot water systems in 1989?

 

[Riley]

That’s not really the point I’m making chuck this is an open forum and people skim read threads as you know just looking for the information they want to read. As per the poster they haven’t said whether it was vented or unvented and I may be wrong but if it’s unvented these have been notifiable for donkeys years

 

[TMHM]

Vented

Don’t tar everyone with the same brush.

If you go down that route why not make this forum only accessible to professional plumbers!

 

[Riley]

That’s not the point and it wasn’t a dig at you my friend. We have numerous people with 0 experience ask a question, then ask it another way because they don’t like the answer then ask it again because we will still not give them the info they want. Sometimes it’s best (legal) to have a pro in. In your instance you are absolutely fine venteds only became notifiable relatively recently

 

[TMHM]

That’s not the point and it wasn’t a dig at you my friend. We have numerous people with 0 experience ask a question, then ask it another way because they don’t like the answer then ask it again because we will still not give them the info they want. Sometimes it’s best (legal) to have a pro in. In your instance you are absolutely fine venteds only became notifiable relatively recently

I understand entirely. Being heavily involved in another forum, it happens all too regularly... also the same Q repeated ad nauseam.🙁
I have also run a business for 35 years and have had my fair share of “customers” asking lots of q’s and then, armed with the info, going elsewhere with the spec, ‘cos it’s cheaper. Or those that let you spend three days on job then complain ‘cos “my mate could have done that quicker and cheaper”. Or indeed having to spend three days on a one day job to fix the customers cock up!
These fora are to help peeps, and I will continue to ask advice, and I don’t mind if the answer is “ it’s not as simple as that - yu need to sort out flow rates/pressure drop/ run lengths - please call in a qualified plumber.” That’s why I ask the “Professionals” 🙂

 

[Riley]

I understand entirely. Being heavily involved in another forum, it happens all too regularly... also the same Q repeated ad nauseam.🙁
I have also run a business for 35 years and have had my fair share of “customers” asking lots of q’s and then, armed with the info, going elsewhere with the spec, ‘cos it’s cheaper. Or those that let you spend three days on job then complain ‘cos “my mate could have done that quicker and cheaper”. Or indeed having to spend three days on a one day job to fix the customers cock up!
These fora are to help peeps, and I will continue to ask advice, and I don’t mind if the answer is “ it’s not as simple as that - yu need to sort out flow rates/pressure drop/ run lengths - please call in a qualified plumber.” That’s why I ask the “Professionals” 🙂

Wish more people were like yourself

 

[TMHM]

Wish more people were like yourself

Competence is key and you’ve proved you didn’t have it

🙂😛😛😛😀😀

 

[Riley]

Ah but you’ve proven yourself to be a reasonable “engineer” rather than the “it’s not rocket science” type 😉

 

[sammathias]

Original op can we see photos of the full cylinder and associating pipework?

 

[WC1]

If its all up to spec surely it's no bother to get a g3 in to give it a service Of course there is a cost but that should be minimal if it's all good. Peace of mind for everyone. And adds value when the house is sold.

 

[Riley]

If its all up to spec surely it's no bother to get a g3 in to give it a service Of course there is a cost but that should be minimal if it's all good. Peace of mind for everyone. And adds value when the house is sold.

Agreed but I think this shouldn’t detract from those persons installing illegally. It does nothing to disincentivise them that someone will just come along afterwards and sort it to a standard. There is no comeback when there should be

 

[SimonG]

This makes no sense mate.

It's the attack of Thomas Watt