Is a S flange out of the HWC really necessary ?

[realstokebloke]

So - there really isn't a consensus is there? And arguably am more confused than ever.

As i say though, as i have a Salamander, i better do as per their instructions - altho' the Warix flange sounds good as a direct replacement - but even that is interesting (confusing?) as it seems to take the pump feed from the top of the flange - which is surely where the bubbles will rise into this pipe?

See p 6 as KJ suggests (last diagram on right):

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf

Better check if salamander also "allow" Warix flanges? *

And interesting to think that, if i just phone & ask different five plumbers locally, will i get five different answers?

* They do - just checked but the pump supply from the top confuses me (as per post below).

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

I know KJ - i'm totally confuddled by it now (as post below).

I guess the problem with my tee would be that it is not angled up off the top of the cylinder (like diags 1 & 2 on pp6) but just vertically straight across.

So if i have to start altering the angle of the pipe etc, i may as well just fit a flange? (& then also be covered warranty / MI's wise?)

 

[realstokebloke]

Warix & Surrey flanges are very similar to each other, but if you have existing male bend on top of cylinder, then Warix is direct replacement, as the hot to all other supplies is from the side of a Warix & air free supply out of top for pump. Surrey flange is the opposite.
I personally wouldn't use Essex flanges even if I got them for free, as though they do give full flow, they are prone to leak due to heat on those rubber washers, destroying them. A new cylinder with a tapping near the top of side is best, or else Warix/Surrey flange. IMO.

Cheers Best - i wish i knew what was / is "best" tho' : )

I get the bubbles thing (in theory they only rise & so a tee down should be OK but, also get they might get sucked in & damage the impellar(s) - so a flange is a failsafe & complies with MI.)

I think I also get the warix issue you are talking about here (that the pipework to the other HW services is from the side & the pump feed is from the top - compared to the other way around on the S flange).

So, in theory, that's slightly less pipework to alter (the height of the horizontal feed across into the existing vertical HW pipes).

But...won't a feed up (off the top of a warix) just encourage air to rise up into that pipe & then get sucked down into the pump anyway?

I have also ruled out an Essex - i would be asking for trouble on a DIY and i have yet to find a plumber to touch one with a barge pole!

 

[realstokebloke]

therefore it follows that only the cheaper end of pump market is concerned about its impeller build and operational quality............

or perhaps they manufacture flanges......

That blinking Salamander wasn't cheap i tell you : )

 

[realstokebloke]

I've googled a warix:

http://www.plumbclick.co.uk/external/commerce/1/gfx/hires/Warix_Flange.jpg

and Salamander say it needs a compression elbow at the top:

"The supply connection to the pump
MUST BE FROM THE TOP of the Warix
Flange via a 22mm compression elbow
and thereby avoid inverted loops."

So do i just fit a compression elbow directly on top of that warix plse (on the rising bit sticking up)? (is that how it's done?)

and also do i need to check my cylinder (will be circa 15 yrs old) has a particualr type of thread into it? (i.e. the S flanges read like they have an adapter for male / female threads at the top of the cylinder.

I guess they are all 22mm at the top?

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

KJ:

also in there (Stuart Turner - but not in Salamanders) on pp4 / figs 5 & 6, it shows the "preferred area"...and also those double triangles in the diags - i assume these are valves?

and I see the "preferred area" is the area they would prefer the pump to go in (which just basically looks to be under the height of the hot pump supply?) but is it also the preferred place for the iso valves?

i.e. does that just mean, don't fit the isolator valves higher than the hot pump inlet in the pipework?

Is it a "must" as i will struggle for space to fit same - just due to the layout of the area and available space.

 

[Mike Jackson]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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[Best]

Agree with above comments. Standard copper cylinders are 1" female, as are the standard flanges.
Any valves you fit need to be full flow, therefore gate valves, or the much better lever valves which are not expensive & trouble free. Just fit the lever valve for the hot supply to pump as close to where it leaves the cylinder if you can, or on the drop to pump. Cold supply normally better with valve at cold tank, but another valve fitted nearer the pump handy. Really all a job for a professional plumber,- all done in nice, carefully bent & clipped, copper pipes.

 

[kay-jay]

wouldn't worry too much about isolation location. do whats practical for you. its not a deal breaker. just as long as they isolate the correct parts of system, anywhere accessible on the pipes will do.

 

[kay-jay]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

 

[realstokebloke]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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Yes, it has an elbow out of the top & then runs horizontally across.

So the Warrix needed is either 1" / 22mm (most likely) or 3/4" / 22mm then?

Is the " (inch) measurement across the fitting to check plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn).

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

 

[Best]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn)

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

Lever valves are not as tamper proof as iso's with screw slot, but they are perfect for pump & other supplies & I doubt full bore iso's are all as good quality as levers.
No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

 

[realstokebloke]

Pity! No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

Well, the pump hoses are as straight as the horseguards at the palace at the weekend anyway.

I'll try a pic to show the pipe runs as well though, so you can scoff some more 🙂

Now, how do i tell what my fitting (in the top of the HWC) is without draining the whole caboodle & getting the old one out first plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

No can do KJ sorry, Had the Salamander a while now, so won't honour any returns.

If it all goes belly up though - I'll get back to you.

Are they not good 'uns tthemselves though?

Not knowing & being my forst ever pump purchase, i thought they were right up there in the pump food chain.

 

[Best]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.
Salamander pumps are a middle quality pump that if fitted well give good service usually, but Stuart & Turner are pure quality ( you just need to fit one & you won't use anything else) & as far as I know, make high quality versions for other companies.

 

[kay-jay]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

 

[realstokebloke]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.

"...know at a glance..."

I just shot the fitting at the top of the cylinder but can't find the download lead to post it on here ! ("durr") for now anyway - a household enquiry will reveal same later hopefully - then some kind soul can twll me (at a glance) the fitting i have & the one i'll need i hope.

In other words Best - (& sorry to be dense) it "sort of" made sense but not totally.

 

[realstokebloke]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

When i do it, i have to move the header tank anyway to fit ano 25gallon tank (50G for the shower cold feed), so i was going to drain it & give it a good clean anyway.

So are you saying running the hot taps will drain off enough water (plus a few towels) so i don;t need to use the drain cock at the base of the cylinder & empty it.

Cheers.

 

[stevetheplumber]

it rare for me to losemoney on any job but the two that spring to mind both involved salamander pumps and minor deviations from the mi's