URGENT Leaking hot water cylinder pipe

[bluemermaid]

Hi

I have a leak from one of the pipes, going into the hot water cylinder, in the airing cupboard. There are 2 pipes going into the cylinder on the left hand side, (I think it is called a vented cylinder - colder water tank in loft) and it is the top pipe which is leaking, (the one with yellow cloth and black tie wrapped around it in pic) I will attach 2 pictures I have taken. It leaks where the pipe goes into the cylinder. Is it called a flange? I saw a video on youtube showing a similar leak.

As you can see, I am soaking up the water with absorbent cloths/sponges at the moment. I first discovered the leak, as it had stained the kitchen ceiling and when I went to investigate to see if it was the hot water cylinder, the leak had soaked some of the floorboards in the cupboard. They have dried out, since I put the cloths/sponges there and keep wringing them out.

It seems to get worse, whenever I run a bath/draw hot water.

I know this needs an urgent fix from a tradesman but I have been shielding since the beginning of the pandemic and still don't want anyone coming in the house yet.

Is there a product I could buy to try and temporarily fix the leak? I am not a diy-er and have no knowledge of plumbing etc. I also find things difficult because of my illness but hopefully, could manage to apply a product if there was a suitable one. The other difficulty is there is so little space to work in, as the wall and cylinder are so close together, so it's really difficult to actually look at the leak itself. I managed to take the pic where the pipe goes into the cylinder, by aiming the camera towards the hole and hoping for the best.

Another question: Because it seems to leak more when/after drawing hot water for bath etc, I am trying to avoid doing this. Is it unsafe for the same hot water to be heated over and over again in the cylinder, (have an ancient gravity fed system from the 1970's but cylinder has been replaced before, when the old one leaked) Could it cause Legionnaires Disease, or could it overheat if all the water evaporated over time? I have been running a bath every few days, to make the cylinder fill with fresh water then but it is so inconvenient, as I have to wring out the cloths much more often afterwards and worry overnight when sleeping.

Thanks very much in advance for any advice you can give me.

 

[john the plumber]

Hi

I have a leak from one of the pipes, going into the hot water cylinder, in the airing cupboard. There are 2 pipes going into the cylinder on the left hand side, (I think it is called a vented cylinder - colder water tank in loft) and it is the top pipe which is leaking, (the one with yellow cloth and black tie wrapped around it in pic) I will attach 2 pictures I have taken. It leaks where the pipe goes into the cylinder. Is it called a flange? I saw a video on youtube showing a similar leak.

As you can see, I am soaking up the water with absorbent cloths/sponges at the moment. I first discovered the leak, as it had stained the kitchen ceiling and when I went to investigate to see if it was the hot water cylinder, the leak had soaked some of the floorboards in the cupboard. They have dried out, since I put the cloths/sponges there and keep wringing them out.

It seems to get worse, whenever I run a bath/draw hot water.

I know this needs an urgent fix from a tradesman but I have been shielding since the beginning of the pandemic and still don't want anyone coming in the house yet.

Is there a product I could buy to try and temporarily fix the leak? I am not a diy-er and have no knowledge of plumbing etc. I also find things difficult because of my illness but hopefully, could manage to apply a product if there was a suitable one. The other difficulty is there is so little space to work in, as the wall and cylinder are so close together, so it's really difficult to actually look at the leak itself. I managed to take the pic where the pipe goes into the cylinder, by aiming the camera towards the hole and hoping for the best.

Another question: Because it seems to leak more when/after drawing hot water for bath etc, I am trying to avoid doing this. Is it unsafe for the same hot water to be heated over and over again in the cylinder, (have an ancient gravity fed system from the 1970's but cylinder has been replaced before, when the old one leaked) Could it cause Legionnaires Disease, or could it overheat if all the water evaporated over time? I have been running a bath every few days, to make the cylinder fill with fresh water then but it is so inconvenient, as I have to wring out the cloths much more often afterwards and worry overnight when sleeping.

Thanks very much in advance for any advice you can give me.View attachment 47673View attachment 47674

Hav3 you tried just nipping it up abit? See if you can tighten it a little more ( but don’t go mad)

 

[Chuck]

Hav3 you tried just nipping it up abit? See if you can tighten it a little more ( but don’t go mad)

Out of an abundance of caution, I wouldn't try that in the OP's circumstances because there's a risk that taking a spanner to it it'll make matters worse. Obviously a plumber could handle any problems but the OP isn't a plumber...

I would suggest that the OP contact a reputable local firm and explain the circumstances. They should be able to do the work needed in a way that is safe, while the OP stays in another room and communicates with them by phone if necessary. Leave a window a jar while the work is in progress and give the area they've been in a chance to 'blow through' once they've left.

I don't normally suggest big firms like British Gas for small plumbing jobs because they are expensive, but they may be worth considering as they should have the resources (PPE, training, etc,) needed to work in buildings occupied by shielding persons.

 

[john the plumber]

Out of an abundance of caution, I wouldn't try that in the OP's circumstances because there's a risk that taking a spanner to it it'll make matters worse. Obviously a plumber could handle any problems but the OP isn't a plumber...

I would suggest that the OP contact a reputable local firm and explain the circumstances. They should be able to do the work needed in a way that is safe, while the OP stays in another room and communicates with them by phone if necessary. Leave a window a jar while the work is in progress and give the area they've been in a chance to 'blow through' once they've left.

I don't normally suggest big firms like British Gas for small plumbing jobs because they are expensive, but they may be worth considering as they should have the resources (PPE, training, etc,) needed to work in buildings occupied by shielding persons.

Are you suggesting that British Gas (who will charge three figures minimum for that) have all the resources but any other tradesmen don’t?
I have been working through the whole pandemic and I’ve entered many homes/ businesses without any issues.
If the op isn’t up to it I would suggest contacting a reputable plumber as appose to British Gas.
Any decent tradesman take the relevant precautions.
Im sorry but as a plumber of 30 years plus I completely disagree with your advice you have given the op.

 

[bluemermaid]

Thank you both for your replies. I would be too scared to try and tighten it, just in case it did make matters worse. Very tempting to try but I hope I can resist!

I am also too scared to have a tradesman in. I know they might say it can be done in a safe way (PPE, open window, me in another room etc) but I still don't want to risk it. I have heard of quite a few shielders who just took one little risk (such as this) and were unlucky enough to go down with the virus.

Is there no product at all, which would seal it up for now? Would be difficult for me to apply without me being able to actually see the leak (not enough room to get my head in position needed). I have seen sprays and putty etc. Any ideas? Or any better way than cloths and towels to catch the water from the leak?

Also, could someone answer my question about same water in cylinder being heated up over and over again, if I don't draw any hot water, until problem fixed? Worried about Legionnaires and/or cylinder burning out in the end.

Thanks again.

 

[bluemermaid]

Also worried about the water in tank in loft not being drawn for ages and what problems that could cause? I think the cold water taps upstairs are being fed from the mains. So, I am worried about the water in the cylinder and in the tank not being refreshed.

 

[Ric2013]

So long as your cylinder is heated to 60°C, that will be enough to kill legionella. (Technically 55°C is sufficient, but it takes an hour to do so). It is when water is stored for long periods at a medium temperature, say 40°C, that the bacteria is most likely to breed.

Even if you were to drink water with high levels of legionella bacteria (which you are not), that would not necessarily be a problem. You'd have to choke to inhale the water. Legionella in the digestive tract have no effect - it is when they get into the lungs that the problems can start. The greatest risk, therefore, is if you are using a shower that runs from a tepid cylinder.

The cylinder absolutely will not dry out or burn up. The cistern in the loft will naturally keep the cylinder full and replace any leaked water.

If your loft cistern ('tank') only fills the hot cylinder, then, while bacteria may breed in it (though less likely in cold weather than in the summer), these bacteria would be killed off once they get into the cylinder and are heated to 60°. You could always run a hot tap for 20 minutes (open the window and leave the room and shut the door while it runs) after you eventually have the leak repaired. This will flush the old water out of the system. Then let the cylinder heat through and leave it an hour before starting to use the hot water again, letting each hot tap run for 2 minutes once everything is heated through (again ventilating the rooms when you do so).

In terms of products, you can get a type of thick silicone sealant that is called "Fernox" LSX. It is suited for use with drinking water so you could give that a try. But only if you can locate the leak!

Have you not considered a shallow bowl, sardine tin, or similar to catch the drips? May be better than cloths and, if the source of the leak is warm and the area is open to airflow, some evaporation may take place at source (in a hard-water area you may even find the limescale where the water evaporates blocks the leak eventually... if you're really lucky).

 

[bluemermaid]

Thank you so much for your very informative reply and advice Ric.

The cylinder is being heated to 60 degrees C. I hope so anyway. I have the boiler thermostat set to 150 degrees F. It is an ancient Vulcan boiler, so still in Fahrenheit! There is no thermostat on the cylinder itself that I can set.

Everything needs updating in the house and more and more jobs are piling up since the pandemic. This is the second plumbing problem that has arisen. The dishwasher hose is leaking under the sink as well, which is a real blow to me, with my illness. I can't do a temporary fix to that either, as again, I can't see exactly where the leak is coming from in the hose, before it leaks into cupboard.

With the cylinder leak and your suggested product to give a try, do you think I would be able to apply it just by feeling with fingers? Have you any idea from the first pic, which part is probably leaking, to give me an idea where I should apply the product? Probably difficult for you to answer that.

I do put a shallow plastic dish underneath the leak for extra security but it wouldn't be enough on its' own, as with the limited space between the pipes to place it, some of the leak still hits the floorboards around the dish.

Thanks so much again for your help with this. I really appreciate it!

 

[Chuck]

I do put a shallow plastic dish underneath the leak for extra security but it wouldn't be enough on its' own, as with the limited space between the pipes to place it, some of the leak still hits the floorboards around the dish.

Another trick to try is to tie a piece of string around the pipe that is the source of the drip and arrange it so that capillary action causes the water to run down the string into a container. This gives you a bit more leeway when it comes to positioning the container.

 

[bluemermaid]

PS We are in a very hard water area (Herts), so it would be fantastic if the limescale did eventually block the leak! I would be over the moon if that happened! 🤞

 

[bluemermaid]

What a good idea Chuck! I will give that a go! Thanks!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Keep this on topic please @john the plumber

 

[WC1]

I would suggest that the OP contact a reputable local firm and explain the circumstances. They should be able to do the work needed in a way that is safe, while the OP stays in another room and communicates with them by phone if necessary. Leave a window a jar while the work is in progress and give the area they've been in a chance to 'blow through' once they've left.

Yes, spot on!👍

 

[bluemermaid]

Yes, spot on!👍

Thank you but I have already replied to this advice.

 

[bluemermaid]

I have been trying to investigate some more, to find exactly where the water is leaking out. I have been feeling inside the circular recess and I can't feel any water on the actual pipe/joins. The water is pooling at the bottom of the circular recess, (the cut out circle on left hand side where pipe goes into cylinder) then dripping down the cylinder to the floor. It feels like it might be coming from cracks in whatever is sealing that recess. I think I could feel cracks in the material (is it concrete or something?) with my fingernail. Again, I am not sure but I think I might have made it worse with my fingernail, as it is dripping faster now! Before, it was dripping about every 12 seconds and now it is dripping about every 6 seconds! Would "Fernox" LSX still be the right material to try and do a temporary fix please?

 

[Ric2013]

It may be hard to plug a leak with LSX if it dripping that fast, but since it's low pressure, may be worth a try. There shouldn't normally be sealing compound used in the manufacture of the cylinder. Is it limescale?

 

[bluemermaid]

Hard to say if it is limescale, because of not being able to actually look at it.

In the first picture in my original post, you can see the blue colour of the cylinder and then what looks like a grey smooth compound inside the cut out circle. From feeling with my fingers, the water is coming from the bottom of that smooth grey compound, (though didn't feel smooth with my fingers), where it joins the bottom of the circular recess. Isn't that some kind of sealant?

I did wonder how the LSX would adhere, when the water is dripping so fast. Some products I have seen say adhere underwater but that sounds too good to be true.

During my investigations, I was able to get right down on the floor and see where the drips (3 of them now - one fast drip, two slow) were hitting the floor underneath the cylinder and I found a plastic box which was small enough to fit there and catch the drips. It fills up too quickly to last overnight though, so I have ordered a bar drip tray (narrow but long, so will fit), which, hopefully, should take longer to fill up. Best method so far, until the tray arrives, is 2 cloths pushed inside the recess, then a bath towel wrapped around the pipe.

Why does it get better when the water is being heated or the central heating is on? Is it to do with expansion that I have read about and why does it get worse if I run a bath? Is that pipe sending hot water from the boiler into the cylinder? As the weather has warmed up, I have had the heating on less, so maybe that's why it has been dripping faster. I'd like to understand the mechanics though.

Out of interest, what would happen if I attempted to turn off the cold water feed to the cylinder? I have seen the red wheel valve higher up but I am scared to try it. I wouldn't be able to drain the cylinder though.

Thanks very much for all your help Ric.

 

[bluemermaid]

PS Is the problem likely to get worse do you think? I am dreading, I might have an emergency in the end.

 

[Ric2013]

I't is possible the pipes flex and have strained the connexion to the cylinder. As you have noted, the pipes expand and contract very slightly with temperature, and, if on a long run...

I'm not sure what running a bath would change. Though the cylinder itself would get cold, the pipes should remain hot if the boiler is firing.

If you turned off the cold feed to the cylinder, the pressure in the cylinder would remain as the vent pipe would be full of water, though if the leak is that bad, the pressure should then fall to some degree once the vent from the cylinder empties (open a hot tap to empty the vent). Assuming you have a good quality gate valve that seals perfectly (they don't always), that is. If you want to try, MAKE SURE THE IMMERSION HEATER CANNOT SWITCH ON - otherwise someone will switch it on and the element will fail (if the water level drops). Sod's law. Risk is that this will airlock the hot pipes afterwards, but if you aren't using hot water for now, that isn't a big problem.

 

[bluemermaid]

Thanks Ric.

What did you mean when you said, "and, if on a long run..."

Hoping I am wrong about the bath then, as that would mean I could go back to having baths again. That is, if I don't try turning off the gate valve. I don't know what you mean about the immersion heater, as there isn't one. Just the cylinder, which the boiler heats the water for. Do you mean the switch which is in the airing cupboard? Should that be switched off if I did decide to attempt to turn off the gate valve? Not sure I want to risk another problem with airlock. Not that I know what happens with an airlock.

 

[bluemermaid]

PS What you said about the boiler firing when running bath. It wouldn't be firing if I am having a bath when boiler is off. Maybe the solution for that problem is to make sure I heat the water via the boiler when running the bath?

 

[Ric2013]

What did you mean when you said, "and, if on a long run..."

Sorry! 'On a long pipe run'. I.e. the longer the length (the straight run) of pipe, the more significant the expansion.

Isn't that an immersion heater? Does it have a wire connected to it? And are you sure it isn't leaking from there and running down? Unlikely but worth a quick look.

You stated, "Maybe the solution for that problem is to make sure I heat the water via the boiler when running the bath?". I can't see what harm it would do to try.

Basically an airlock can result if the pipework is not well designed. Once the pipe is empty, it fills with air and the water pressure is insufficient to clear the air. It shouldn't happen at all, but plumbing mistakes are often found and plumbers are used to the tricks required to get things flowing again. The risk is no hot water when you re-open the red valve due to air blocking the pipework. Not damaging or dangerous, but annoying.

It is also possible that the valve may not reopen when you want it to, especially if you turn it off too hard. Often the valves used for this sort of application are gate valves. Good gate valves work well, but many are built to a low price and the quality suffers a lot (send us a photo?) You may be fine, but it's only fair to warn you.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, here I am, back again after 6 months. I am still in the same situation, (as in, I am still shielding, due to not being vaccinated and still have the leak in the cylinder). I got used to checking the drip tray I bought and emptying it regularly over the winter.

Over the summer and the warmer weather, I noticed the leak would slow right down when the boiler wasn't being used for long periods. So, I stopped using the boiler and just heated the water once a week, to keep the boiler in working order. I then started leaving it off for longer and running it once every 2 or 3 weeks.

Then one day, I noticed the pilot light had gone out, (it is a very old Vulcan Continental boiler from the 1970's). I looked up the instructions how to light it manually and was able to light it but it wouldn't stay lit. Every time I let go of the valve, the pilot light went out again.

I read the most common problem is a faulty thermocouple.

I have been in touch with a gas registered plumber and he could come and have a look for me (at both the boiler and the hot water cylinder) but I am still so nervous of catching the virus, especially, now we have the more contagious Delta variant.

Today, I tried to light it again and checked whether the flame was properly pointing towards the thermocouple metal end, as I had seen in videos online. I noticed the flame doesn't surround the thermocouple. The flame bends towards it at the bottom of the flame but the rest of the flame points upwards (ie vertically). It is very close to the thermocouple but more beside it, rather than surrounding it.

After the pilot light had gone out again, I touched the thermocouple end to see if it felt very hot and it did, so it is heating up but do you think it is heating up enough?

I don't see why the angle of the flame would have changed, as the boiler hasn't been touched inside for ages and the pilot light always stayed on before, so I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem.

When I have watched videos of lighting pilot lights, it looks like there is more than one flame? When I light it, there is just one flame. As I said, it bends a little at the bottom towards the thermocouple and the rest of the flame is vertical and is beside the thermocouple. The pilot light tube is angled towards the thermocouple but the flame doesn't engulf/surround the thermocouple metal tip bit.

Any ideas? I have seen the other possible problems in the videos but I don't want to touch anything else myself (eg cleaning the thermocouple tip, or the pilot light tube, or replacing the thermocouple with a new one).

Why would the pilot light suddenly go out when I stopped using the boiler for 2 or 3 weeks? It never usually goes out.

I have some pictures of the boiler I took a while ago but didn't take any of the pilot light chamber. I can try and do that another day if you need to see. Might be difficult to get a good photo of it, as it is right at the bottom, near the floor. I will attach the pictures I do have but I don't expect them to be of much use. You might enjoy seeing an 'antique' boiler though!

Thanks guys.

PS Sorry I didn't reply to your question back in February about the immersion heater you pointed out in the picture of the hot water cylinder Ric2013. There is no wire connected to it. I didn't even know it was an immersion heater, until you pointed it out. It has never been connected as far as I know.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry to say the virus is going to be around forever so we all just have to get back to normal safely

I would book him in and just be mindful of keeping 2m and wiping down after etc

 

[bluemermaid]

Sorry to say the virus is going to be around forever so we all just have to get back to normal safely

I would book him in and just be mindful of keeping 2m and wiping down after etc

I know but as I said, I am not vaccinated, due to my illness, so I am vulnerable. I am hoping there might be a different type of vaccination or treatment in the future.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I understand your predicament but I can’t see anything short term eg 1-2 years 5-10 maybe

 

[bluemermaid]

I understand your predicament but I can’t see anything short term eg 1-2 years 5-10 maybe

There are lots of different vaccines being trialled. Some in phase 3 trials now. I live in hope.

 

[exedon2]

I'm old enough to know that's not a vulcan continental! Even older either a viceroy or a autostat first gas boiler I ever fitted as an apprentice.

 

[bluemermaid]

I'm old enough to know that's not a vulcan continental! Even older either a viceroy or a autostat first gas boiler I ever fitted as an apprentice.

That's interesting. Thanks! Don't know how I thought I knew it was a Vulcan Continental. Unless I have seen it somewhere on the boiler. Were the 2 you mention Vulcan's, as it's definitely a Vulcan. It's on the door of the boiler and the label inside (which you can see in the last pic I posted).

 

[exedon2]

Definitely a vulcan (factory still there stelrad rads made there now) the continental was physical smaller with a different control panel thermostat knob set in a panel at 45 degrees

 

[bluemermaid]

Definitely a vulcan (factory still there stelrad rads made there now) the continental was physical smaller with a different control panel thermostat knob set in a panel at 45 degrees

I'd love to know exactly which model it is. Have just seen this advert, so looks like it isn't the Autostat model, as that one has controls on the outside. Ours doesn't have any controls at all on the outside.

 

[bluemermaid]

I'm old enough to know that's not a vulcan continental! Even older either a viceroy or a autostat first gas boiler I ever fitted as an apprentice.

Doesn't look like the Viceroy either: Viceroy GTS | Ideal Commercial Boilers - https://idealcommercialboilers.com/products/viceroy-gts It's a mystery!

 

[exedon2]

Ideal after they bought out Hattersley's re used the viceroy name on a range of commercial boilers (just to confuse matters)

 

[bluemermaid]

Ideal after they bought out Hattersley's re used the viceroy name on a range of commercial boilers (just to confuse matters)

Just took a pic of it with the door back on.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, here I am, back again after 6 months. I am still in the same situation, (as in, I am still shielding, due to not being vaccinated and still have the leak in the cylinder). I got used to checking the drip tray I bought and emptying it regularly over the winter.

Over the summer and the warmer weather, I noticed the leak would slow right down when the boiler wasn't being used for long periods. So, I stopped using the boiler and just heated the water once a week, to keep the boiler in working order. I then started leaving it off for longer and running it once every 2 or 3 weeks.

Then one day, I noticed the pilot light had gone out, (it is a very old Vulcan Continental boiler from the 1970's). I looked up the instructions how to light it manually and was able to light it but it wouldn't stay lit. Every time I let go of the valve, the pilot light went out again.

I read the most common problem is a faulty thermocouple.

I have been in touch with a gas registered plumber and he could come and have a look for me (at both the boiler and the hot water cylinder) but I am still so nervous of catching the virus, especially, now we have the more contagious Delta variant.

Today, I tried to light it again and checked whether the flame was properly pointing towards the thermocouple metal end, as I had seen in videos online. I noticed the flame doesn't surround the thermocouple. The flame bends towards it at the bottom of the flame but the rest of the flame points upwards (ie vertically). It is very close to the thermocouple but more beside it, rather than surrounding it.

After the pilot light had gone out again, I touched the thermocouple end to see if it felt very hot and it did, so it is heating up but do you think it is heating up enough?

I don't see why the angle of the flame would have changed, as the boiler hasn't been touched inside for ages and the pilot light always stayed on before, so I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem.

When I have watched videos of lighting pilot lights, it looks like there is more than one flame? When I light it, there is just one flame. As I said, it bends a little at the bottom towards the thermocouple and the rest of the flame is vertical and is beside the thermocouple. The pilot light tube is angled towards the thermocouple but the flame doesn't engulf/surround the thermocouple metal tip bit.

Any ideas? I have seen the other possible problems in the videos but I don't want to touch anything else myself (eg cleaning the thermocouple tip, or the pilot light tube, or replacing the thermocouple with a new one).

Why would the pilot light suddenly go out when I stopped using the boiler for 2 or 3 weeks? It never usually goes out.

I have some pictures of the boiler I took a while ago but didn't take any of the pilot light chamber. I can try and do that another day if you need to see. Might be difficult to get a good photo of it, as it is right at the bottom, near the floor. I will attach the pictures I do have but I don't expect them to be of much use. You might enjoy seeing an 'antique' boiler though!

Thanks guys.

PS Sorry I didn't reply to your question back in February about the immersion heater you pointed out in the picture of the hot water cylinder Ric2013. There is no wire connected to it. I didn't even know it was an immersion heater, until you pointed it out. It has never been connected as far as I know.

The pilot light flame definitely doesn't hit the thermocouple tip like in this diagram. I wonder if it ever did though, as it hasn't been adjusted and no problems before now.

 

[Ric2013]

My feeling is the failure of the pilot light staying on is likely to be unrelated to your use of the boiler. Theromocouples don't last forever and sometimes become increasingly reluctant to work eventually failing altogether, or the pilot jet has slowly become blocked (not sure by what, but then I'm not a gas installer).

If you're that worried about contagion, and really want to do belt and braces, can you not find a gas installer willing to follow all the precautions to the letter, allow him/her in to do the work, keep the work confined to that room, and then vacate the room where the boiler is for 3 days?

 

[bluemermaid]

Thank you for your reply Ric.

I have read they are the most common causes.

The plumber said he could take a look tomorrow, so I am going to have to be brave and go for it, before the colder weather comes, when I will need the boiler.

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to avoid the room for 3 days, because it’s in the kitchen.

I won’t be able to confine the work to one room either, because I want him to look at the leaking hot water cylinder as well and maybe some problems with the radiators in other rooms too. I have saved up a lot of jobs, including a leaking dishwasher pipe as well!

He has promised to wear a mask and gloves and weather permitting, I am going to stay in the garden while he has a look tomorrow. I have also asked that we communicate through our phones while he is here. Of course, he will be here for longer when he does the actual work, so I might not be able to stay in the garden for that.
I am going to open all the windows for ventilation.

I am still so nervous! It will be the first time anyone has been inside the house since the pandemic began.

 

[bluemermaid]

Hi Ric and All

Just an update to say, you were right, it was the thermocouple. The plumber replaced it today and the pilot light stayed on. Hooray!

He emphasised the need for a whole new system. If I want to wait until I feel safer from Covid, (as it will take 3-4 days to install new system - he recommended a combi boiler), he can just fit a new hot water cylinder. He thinks that will be a waste of money though, as it will be thrown away when I have a new boiler installed.

I am leaning towards just the new cylinder until I feel safe but it will be just my luck if the old boiler finally conks out in the middle of the winter and then I will be kicking myself.

I have noticed a whistling sound now when the boiler is off. I asked the plumber if it's coming from the pilot light and he said yes. It never made that sound before but I didn't want to question what he was saying. Maybe someone here can explain why it is making that sound now, when it never did in the past?

I opened every window in the house and 2 doors while he was here and I stayed in the garden. He asked if his mate could come in and check the hot water cylinder, while he checked the boiler. I was reluctant to have 2 people in the house. One was bad enough but I said yes all the same.

I stayed out in the garden for ages even after they'd gone and then when I finally came inside, I left the windows/doors open for hours. I hope all the precautions have kept me safe!

 

[Ric2013]

Possibly he's also adjusted the pilot light and it's burning with a bigger flame hence the new whistling sound?

 

[bluemermaid]

I think he might have, because when he first checked the problem, I asked if the flame was hitting the old thermocouple enough to heat it and he said it was when the flame was on full. So I assume he had adjusted it at that point. I too think he may have left it on full. He said he bent the new thermocouple to sit in the flame properly but it sounds like he left the flame on full as well.

Again, I don’t like to question him but shouldn’t he turn it back down again? It wasn’t a small flame before and was working fine for many years before the thermocouple went bad. If the flame is on full, it will cost me more and is there any other reason it shouldn’t be on full? Could it cause detrimental effects to the boiler in time?

He has given me 2 quotes since, which I asked for. One for new hot water cylinder and one for system upgrade to combi boiler. Because of my fears of Covid, I will probably go for the hot water cylinder, as it will take less time inside the house and less people, (additional person to plumber and mate to remove asbestos flue. Also roofer for new flue but I expect he will stay outside but may need to come in to speak to the others), which lowers the risk a bit.

Do you think I am crazy to waste my money on a new cylinder, when I will have to upgrade the system when I feel safe, meaning the new cylinder gets thrown away? Maybe I could keep the boiler going for the lifespan of the new cylinder but would that be a crazy thing to do too? The only time I can remember the boiler going wrong for my parents over the last 40 years was when it was serviced a couple of times. Can’t remember what went wrong.

I will be getting the plumber to service it when he fits the new cylinder. I know it is a very inefficient old boiler. I am rather fond of it though for sentimental reasons! I can’t believe I am saying that when I spent so long trying to persuade my Dad to replace it but now my parents have gone everything in the house has sentimental attachment for me. Plus the fact, it has done us proud lasting so long.

I felt quite offended, when the plumber seemed to be taking the michael out of the old pump behind the boiler, (I didn’t even know it was still there, as new one fitted). He exclaimed to his mate, “oh my god, look at that! It’s like something from the second world war!” I found his tone quite rude. I am probably being over sensitive after losing my dear parents recently.

I am still so curious to know what model of Vulcan it is. I have seen Vulcan 50 on a big metal part inside and also a label saying cf 40/50. I can’t find anything online about the cf 50 model or what it was called. It was fitted by the Council before we moved in, in the early 1970s.

Sorry for long post!

 

[Chuck]

I don't think it would be 'crazy' to renew the cylinder at this point. It will probably be a relatively small cost compared with updating the whole system and removing asbestos, which can cost a small fortune. When the time comes to replace the boiler you can decide between a combi, in which case you write off the cost of installing the cylinder, or a system boiler and keep the cylinder. It's possible to have a combi with a cylinder, which is a system that can work well in a biggish house as you get 'instant' hot water for the kitchen from the combi and use the cylinder for baths/showers. You make the decision based on the circumstances at the time, it's difficult to predict what's going to happen to energy costs and installation costs.

Replacing a boiler that old is going to yield a significant reduction in your gas consumption so you are burning money just by delaying its replacement.

You might want to think about moving out for a couple of weeks while the work is done. (Forget covid, I wouldn't want to stick around while the asbestos is being removed.) Maybe rent a holiday cottage for a couple of weeks out of season?

 

[exedon2]

Just had a chat with a even older colleague that used to subcontract for me.
We from memory think the basic model was just called vulcan with a output number after it .
More up market was a viceroy with controls on front both of these were conventional flue. The balanced flue model was called the autostat
At a guess I would say your pump is a old green SMC .

 

[Ric2013]

Agree not crazy. Combis have their limitations in terms of the amount of hot water that can be obtained at any one time so they aren't for everyone. I'm at my father's house now (his house has what is almost a combi) and I do miss the 20 litres per minute flow my hot water cylinder at home provides, but I only miss it when I run a bath and it is nice to have hot water instantly rather than have to wait for the cylinder to warm up. Depending on your circumstances you might have a new boiler put in but choose not to go for a combi model at all and to keep your cylinder instead.

In fairness to your Vulcan, old boilers did have amazing lifespans, and were relatively low maintenance, but at the cost of reduced efficiency. My own boiler isn't a combi and it dates back to 1988. It's doubtful whether a replacement would make strict economic sense since I only use around £400 gas a year (it might make environmental sense, but so would becoming vegan and that wouldn't cost me £xxxx upfront). If a new boiler makes sense for you is your decision to make.

In terms of your pilot light, I can't say what setting the chap has given and whether it is right or not and I'm not competent to judge what is a 'correct' setting anyway, but I can't see it being too high damaging a heavy cast iron heat exchanger. My mother's old house ran a higher than necessary permanent pilot light from 1990 until she sold the house in 2012 and a gas installer commented that the boiler seemed to be in good condition given it's age. The pilot may use a little extra gas if it is higher than necessary, but I doubt it will be noticeable and if, as I suspect, you have a semi-gravity system (pump stays off when heating hot water only?) the extra heat will mostly circulate into your cylinder so won't really be wasted.

 

[bluemermaid]

I am so appreciative to you guys. You have made my day with your replies. Thanks so much!

You have scared me about the asbestos though Chuck! I did ask the plumber whether I would need to leave while it was being removed and he said, we would only need to go out in the garden. Is that still not safe? I remember an electrician saying we'd have to leave the house if my parents had the fuse board upgraded years ago, as it contains asbestos (that is still in situ as well. I also read artex ceilings have asbestos. So, it is in multiple places here).

Many thanks exedon2 for asking your colleague about the Vulcan. Really kind of you. It's so great to finally know! A shame they didn't give it a name like the other models. Maybe I should name it myself! Great to know about the pump too.

Many thanks Chuck and Ric for saying I wouldn't be crazy. I wondered, because the plumber kept saying I would be wasting money having a new cylinder.

We didn't discuss in any detail the best option for me, so it's good I am not rushing into the upgrade he suggested with a combi. He recommended a combi, because I live alone and would save money by not heating the cylinder each day, then not using all the hot water, only to heat it again the next day. I didn't tell him that I prefer baths to showers though (shower is electric btw). I can see the advantage of having hot water on tap all the time and never having the inconvenience of it running out though. On the other hand, inconvenient waiting longer for a bath to fill.

It is a 4 bed house with one bathroom (there is a cloakroom downstairs with hot water tap to basin) but just me here.

Thank you for defending our Vulcan Ric! I really appreciate that. As you say, they have amazing lifespans and from what I've read, modern boilers don't last anywhere near as long and I've read combi boilers often develop faults and are pricey to fix. I don't think people should dismiss or make fun of the old boilers so easily, (apart from the environmental issues and cost to run, as you say, depending on circumstances) and appreciate the robustness and longevity they had.

I enjoyed reading about your boiler. Makes me feel like I am not such a freak after all with my lovely relic from the past. I think if I was a plumber, I would be interested in the history of my profession and if I saw an old boiler and pump that I'd never seen before, I would have respect for it, not make fun of it. I am being quite hypocritical saying all of this, as I nagged my dad a lot about upgrading and couldn't understand why he didn't want to (apart from the cost of course). Now I know more about it, I can understand where he was coming from. Sorry Dad.

I recently switched suppliers and I'm paying £64 a month total for gas and electricity. I am not working due to my illness and not claiming benefits either. So, I did try to economise last winter by keeping the heating off as much as possible (difficult when you are home all day). I bought a heated throw, which has been a godsend but it was freezing, every time I went out into the hall/kitchen. Not looking forward to that this winter. Maybe I can use more, as the excess £££ has been building up in my account over summer, as I was hardly ever heating any water, due to the leak in the cylinder (I noticed the leak slowed right down doing this) and then the pilot light went out, so no gas was being used at all.

Thanks so much as well for explaining about the pilot light. It's a relief to know it won't harm the boiler and that it won't make much difference to cost. Yes, you are right, the pump stays off when heating hot water only.

Btw, the quote for cylinder (plus replacing some leaking radiator valves) was: £696 (inc VAT) and the quote for system upgrade was: £4,980 including VAT (that includes removal of asbestos flue by a professional and includes a roofer).

 

[bluemermaid]

Have just seen a bad review concerning baths, (I prefer a bath each day to shower), for the Vaillant 830 combi boiler the plumber quoted for:-

Vaillant Pure 830 Combi 6 months ago
This is a product review, not aimed at Screwfix who are consistently brilliant. Having taken advice I've had this installed to replace an old fashioned 23 yr old (fully working) Potterton boiler. The flow rate into the bath is so so slow. Vaillant quote 12.4 L/minute, we get 8. It's 15 minutes to get 6" of hot water into the bath and that's with no other tap on. Wouldn't recommend this to anybody.

 

[Ric2013]

It's disappointing to see Screwfix quoting flow rates for a combi boiler in terms of litres per minute without specifying what temperature increase can be expected at that flow rate. Will mislead many people. That said, I'm not sure where the above reviewer gets the 12.4 l/minute statistic as it is neither stated in the installation instructions nor on the Screwfix website...

 

[bluemermaid]

It's disappointing to see Screwfix quoting flow rates for a combi boiler in terms of litres per minute without specifying what temperature increase can be expected at that flow rate. Will mislead many people. That said, I'm not sure where the above reviewer gets the 12.4 l/minute statistic as it is neither stated in the installation instructions nor on the Screwfix website...

Is this typical of how long it would take to fill a bath just 6 inches with a combi boiler though, or just a problem with this one? Wouldn't be ideal for me if so.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

doesnt make sense

on average a stnd bath holds around 100-120l

there getting 8 lpm from there mains cold and it takes 15 mins to get 6"so around 1/3 capacity ish

8x15 = 120l so a full bath 😀

me thinking the boiler is not at fault

 

[Chuck]

You have scared me about the asbestos though Chuck! I did ask the plumber whether I would need to leave while it was being removed and he said, we would only need to go out in the garden. Is that still not safe?

I think that you need to get your advice from the people that are actually going to do the removal. If it's a straightforward job with easy access I guess it may only take a few hours from start to finish.

 

[bluemermaid]

The plumber would be making arrangements with the relevant professional, so I would only see them on the day but of course, they would advise at that point.

 

[bluemermaid]

Please could one of you advise a good adjustable spanner to buy to adjust the packing nut in a radiator valve. I think that’s what the nut is called. I want to see if I can stop the small leak there.

 

[Ric2013]

Please could one of you advise a good adjustable spanner to buy to adjust the packing nut in a radiator valve. I think that’s what the nut is called. I want to see if I can stop the small leak there.

You won't go far wrong with Bahco. That said, adjusting a gland packing nut shouldn't need much force, so any adjustable spanner is likely to be good enough for that job.

me thinking the boiler is not at fault

I reckon it's an illegal DIY boiler install and it's been done badly and now the installer is blaming the boiler. In any case, sounds very much like the reviewer is confused because, as you say, the maths is incoherent.

 

[bluemermaid]

Thanks Ric. Can you tell me what size though, as I have seen all different sizes?

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks Ric. Can you tell me what size though, as I have seen all different sizes?

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

Thanks for your help again Ric.

I will probably go for this one:

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, the point is the jaw opening (the width the spanner need to be to fit the size of the nut (measured across two opposite sides of the hexagon (i.e. across flats)) is adjustable from nil to whatever the maximum jaw opening is for that particular spanner so, in that sense, there is no such thing as a too big adjustable spanner. Most 6" length adjustable spanners will open to at least 24mm (just under an inch) so any of those would be big enough for the average gland nut. Longer spanners will have wider jaw openings and will give you more leverage but are increasingly bulky and can be annoying in confined spaces.

I find an 8" length adjustable spanner to be a generally useful size.

I bought a 6" Bahco adjustable spanner in the end.

I tried adjusting the gland packing nut but it is stuck solid. I can't loosen or tighten it. Any advice please, or should I leave well alone?

 

[bluemermaid]

I bought a 6" Bahco adjustable spanner in the end.

I tried adjusting the gland packing nut but it is stuck solid. I can't loosen or tighten it. Any advice please, or should I leave well alone?

I bought some PTFE tape as well, so I could try repacking to stop the leak, if tightening the nut didn't work (watched some videos) but as I said, the nut is stuck solid, so can't do anything at the moment.

 

[Ric2013]

Probably limescale. WD40?

 

[bluemermaid]

Probably limescale. WD40?

Tried some 3in1 oil and still couldn’t move it at all. Also, tried heat from a hairdryer.

I experimented afterwards with a different radiator that still has a shiny clean gland/nut and I couldn’t budge that either way either!

What am I doing wrong or have they just been screwed in super tight by plumbers in the past and I am not able to grip them well enough or budge them with my little spanner?

When I watched utube video, the guy used next to no force at all, so I am thinking they have just been screwed in extremely tight?

 

[bluemermaid]

Tried some 3in1 oil and still couldn’t move it at all. Also, tried heat from a hairdryer.

I experimented afterwards with a different radiator that still has a shiny clean gland/nut and I couldn’t budge that either way either!

What am I doing wrong or have they just been screwed in super tight by plumbers in the past and I am not able to grip them well enough or budge them with my little spanner?

When I watched utube video, the guy used next to no force at all, so I am thinking they have just been screwed in extremely tight?

Here is a pic of the non-leaking newer nut. Leaking one is same type. As I said, can't undo either of them.

 

[Ric2013]

Well, that gland nut has been tightened fully home. Normally there are a few threads visible - are the others all fully home all as in the picture?. This leads me to think that possibly that valve does not have a traditional gland packing and so you won't be able to service it in the way you intended. It should still unscrew, but if it was tightened fully home in the factory, you'll struggle to undo it now.

Of the non-leaking valves you have, is there a definite resistance to rotation when you turn them or do they turn easily? A correctly set up traditional gland will usually feel a bit stiff whereas O ring sealed glands have less resistance to turning.

3 in 1 oil won't dissolve limescale. It was actually (if legend has it right) designed as an oil which would coat the exposed surfaces of a bicycle chain (and so tends to clog precision mechanisms). WD-40 isn't much good as a lubricant, but it's good for cleaning purposes and it does seem to shift limescale, which was why I suggested it.

 

[bluemermaid]

Well, that gland nut has been tightened fully home. Normally there are a few threads visible - are the others all fully home all as in the picture?. This leads me to think that possibly that valve does not have a traditional gland packing and so you won't be able to service it in the way you intended. It should still unscrew, but if it was tightened fully home in the factory, you'll struggle to undo it now.

Of the non-leaking valves you have, is there a definite resistance to rotation when you turn them or do they turn easily? A correctly set up traditional gland will usually feel a bit stiff whereas O ring sealed glands have less resistance to turning.

3 in 1 oil won't dissolve limescale. It was actually (if legend has it right) designed as an oil which would coat the exposed surfaces of a bicycle chain (and so tends to clog precision mechanisms). WD-40 isn't much good as a lubricant, but it's good for cleaning purposes and it does seem to shift limescale, which was why I suggested it.

Thanks very much for your latest reply Ric. I am learning a lot from you!

3 of the others are tightened fully home as in the previous picture. Just my luck! I don't know about the 4th, as it is a different make to the others (will post pics of the caps) and the plumber stopped that one leaking. It doesn't have a screw for me to take the cap off and have a look underneath like the others and I didn't dare force it off, in case it started leaking again.

The 3 radiators with the nuts tightened fully home turn easily and the different one is very stiff since the plumber fixed the leak (you will see in pic, it was so stiff I needed elastic bands to be able to turn it off after the plumbers left).

So, I am guessing from what you say, that one has a traditional gland and the plumber was able to tighten the nut and fix the leak and the other one he tried to fix must have an O ring sealed gland, which is why it is still leaking? He didn't say that though. Said he had tightened the packing nuts and they were no longer leaking. However, when they had gone and I checked them, only the different one (with white cap) was fixed and the other one (with grey cap) was still leaking. Seems to be leaking worse, so maybe he did do something to it.

Today, I tied a shoe lace around the bottom of the spindle, so I can direct the leak into a plastic container, (from some advice much earlier in this thread about tying some string and using natural capillary action). Seems to be working. Might the Fernox sealer fix the leak temporarily, if I put some around the bottom of the spindle?

I have gone back to my original fear of having the plumbers back in, so I might have another winter with all the leaks! I have seen a bigger drip tray for the hot water cylinder that should fit perfectly and need emptying less often. Hardly leaking at all at the moment but as soon as I heat it up and use the hot water, that's when it starts leaking more again.

At least I had the pilot light fixed on the boiler, which I wouldn't be able to do without in the winter. Oh God, I hope I haven't jinxed it saying that!

 

[exedon2]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

 

[bluemermaid]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

Thanks exedon2.

As I said, just my luck!

 

[bluemermaid]

That's a pegler Belmont pattern rad valve uses 2 0 rings as seal's
Can still get them seem to remember the older valves needed the green 0 rings later ones red..
Unfortunately first you need to get gland nut lose first!

While you are here, can I ask you something else about my Vulcan 50 boiler? Do you know if it is likely to have asbestos inside it? I can see some white looking rope inside (you can see it in the pics I posted of inside the boiler), which I have read might be inside Vulcans. If it does contain the rope, or any other kind of asbestos, do any fibres get released when the boiler is serviced?

 

[exedon2]

Almost certainly asbestos rope seals will not give you any problems unless disturbed.
Your boiler and rad valves were made within 10 mls of each other!

 

[bluemermaid]

Almost certainly asbestos rope seals will not give you any problems unless disturbed.
Your boiler and rad valves were made within 10 mls of each other!

Are they unlikely to get disturbed during servicing?

What does '10 mls' mean? 10 years? I like to think they are vintage, just like me haha!

 

[exedon2]

10 miles! Pegler Balby Doncaster Hattersleys Swinton Mexborough 20 min drive between the two.

 

[bluemermaid]

10 miles! Pegler Balby Doncaster Hattersleys Swinton Mexborough 20 min drive between the two.

Oh I see!

Interesting! You are a mine of information...thanks!

 

[Ric2013]

I recognise the white Cosmos valves. Yes, they have a traditional adjustable gland nut whereas, as exedon2 has stated, the Belmont ones don't.

Lucky you to have those Belmont valves. They are good quality and could be repaired. Less lucky, however, is that, as he says, you'd need to get them open and, if they are that tight, perhaps an adjustable spanner may not be enough. Apparently, they are designed to be serviced without having to drain the system (nice touch!). You could try LSX around them - can't see what harm it would do anyway.