Level 3 Diploma 6035 Some questions about the course

[Kay101]

When did city and guilds agree not to run tech certs?
Original Tech certs were designed by the sector skills council
The sector skills council create the apprenticeships
I never heard any promise from any certification body that they wouldnt run a tech cert - think you may be getting confused with the sector skills council maybe?
There are other certification bodies who run tech certs, if we are to be fair the same should be said of them?
City guilds tech cert contains a disclaimer signed by the pupil which states they will not be fully qualified and understand this
The 6035 contains a unit on becoming further qualified
I think this shows reasonable efforts have been made to ensure pupils dont take the course without knowing the facts
if this is misold then the surely he issue is with trading standards and the centre not the certification body?

 

[Kay101]

Sorry I will rephrase what I said:

The modules which ARE covered in 6035 are same as on 6189.

The modules NOT covered in 6035 (ie electrical and some others) you will have to do, along with the site work, to get the full 6189NVQ.

Also bear in mind you still have to do the Gas Safe assessments if you want to do gas, unvented if you want to do thst, and the water regs.

Not everyone wants to do gas, some just work with another engineer who can be called on when gas work is needed.

The units are not the same, you can always check the content of the units yourself by downloading them from their site

 

[chris watkins]

When did city and guilds agree not to run tech certs?
Original Tech certs were designed by the sector skills council
The sector skills council create the apprenticeships
I never heard any promise from any certification body that they wouldnt run a tech cert - think you may be getting confused with the sector skills council maybe?
There are other certification bodies who run tech certs, if we are to be fair the same should be said of them?
City guilds tech cert contains a disclaimer signed by the pupil which states they will not be fully qualified and understand this
The 6035 contains a unit on becoming further qualified
I think this shows reasonable efforts have been made to ensure pupils dont take the course without knowing the facts
if this is misold then the surely he issue is with trading standards and the centre not the certification body?

So on that basis you would say, would you, that the Guilds were not complicit in any way when they sold tens (if not a hundred) thousands of the 6129's through centres that they approved, inspected & audited then ?

We won't ever know the true number or revenue generated for them, cos they won't tell.

In the commercial world (& my book), if you take the money for a produce that is being sold by others you have a responsibility to ensure that the purchasers are not being miss sold it or that it is being missused.

I am not convinced that a one-liner about not being fully qualified until further training is undertaken, removes that responsibility, do you ?

A career-changer who has the intention of going self-employed to gain employment is not going to worry are they ??

 

[Kay101]

So on that basis you would say, would you, that the Guilds were not complicit in any way when they sold tens (if not a hundred) thousands of the 6129's through centres that they approved, inspected & audited then ?

We won't ever know the true number or revenue generated for them, cos they won't tell.

In the commercial world (& my book), if you take the money for a produce that is being sold by others you have a responsibility to ensure that the purchasers are not being miss sold it or that it is being missused.

I am not convinced that a one-liner about not being fully qualified until further training is undertaken, removes that responsibility, do you ?

A career-changer who has the intention of going self-employed to gain employment is not going to worry are they ??

no supplier is responsible for the end user -all criticism should be aimed at the people who responsible.
A career changer wanting to go self employed will know the facts of the course they are taking, if they have other intentions that is not the fault of the qual
when there was no tech cert these people went self employed anyway
nothing stopping any centre in designing and running their own courses, at least this way it is controlled to an extent

 

[Kay101]

I agree the amount of tech certs sold years ago was never going to lead to jobs for everyone, the ratio of NVQs to tech certs was wrong but thats not the fault of the qualification. the qual was a good one and was a good system. the problem occurred with the press and the large amounts of people wanting this qual, had it been lower numbers we prob wouldn't be discussing it now. but i maintain its not the fault of the qual or any certification body.
If there has been miseeling and im not convinced thats as bad as some claim, often its the person enrolling that hears what they want to hear, I've known them try it on, contact gas safe to say they passed everything and blame the centre when they only have a tc3. if miselling is/was a problem then learners need to take it up with the center or trading standards, it would be difficult for any cert body to get strong enough evidence to do anything about it even if they wanted, I also maintain its not their responsibility. Any rogue provider would have their paperwork in order so it wouldnt be that easy. I did hear of one being shut down because they offered the NVQ without site experience, so if thats true then they have acted in the past when they can.
I just feel your criticism although valid was maybe not aimed fairly at the right culprits - often the learner themselves
Moving forward the numbers are nowhere near what they used to be, the 6035 is a different qual with different content and a disclaimer, the level 3 requires a big jump to an nvq. I feel these quals should be available to help genuine school leavers and re trainers

 

[Kay101]

Thanks newcastle phill, Jules & chris watkins for the above info.
Its just i keep being told different things & i didn't know what to do for the best.
So can i use plumbing L2 6035 to go towards the 6189 NVQ 2 if that makes sense.
I turned down the L3 6035 college course.( just out of interest can the L3 6035 count towards a level 3 NVQ) The job hourly rate offered was £10 hourly. Didn't know if that was good.
At least i will be gaining more practical experience hopefully but only after clearing up & tea making etc. I don't mind that because they are taking a chance.
Thanks again everyone
Stacey

yes some of the units do cross over but the jump is greater than the level 2.
L3 6189 is a very demanding course, the 6035 is for school leavers or full time career changers to educate them in the skills, therefore there will be lots more to learn when they have the experience to go further. It is a good course as it gives you all the underpinning knowledge at the advanced level, it is not aligned with Competence person schemes on purpose as you wouldnt have the skills and experience to warrant it. However when you get the chance to progress you wouldnt have to repeat all the learning, maybe some top up and all the on site stuff depending on pathway chosen
it is mainly theory as complex systems require knowledge, there is some practical but it tends to be coplex commissioning and wiring which is difficult but by nature doesnt take as long as l2 practical
IMO a good course but know what it is and what it isnt

 

[Jules]

The units are not the same, you can always check the content of the units yourself by downloading them from their site

Thanks for this info, I will indeed check these points it because the college has said modules are the same.

 

[Kay101]

Thanks for this info, I will indeed check these points it because the college has said modules are the same.

Definitely not the same, same title, same subject, very similar content, but not quite as difficult, hence why it isnt aligned to CPS. Should you progress after this you can carry it across but will have to do some upgrading

 

[Kay101]

Not sure but I think unvented is now a separate course 3345?

there is a seperate course but the 6189 is aligned to it so doesnt have to be repeated, not the same for the 6035

 

[chris watkins]

yes some of the units do cross over but the jump is greater than the level 2.
L3 6189 is a very demanding course, the 6035 is for school leavers or full time career changers to educate them in the skills, therefore there will be lots more to learn when they have the experience to go further. It is a good course as it gives you all the underpinning knowledge at the advanced level, it is not aligned with Competence person schemes on purpose as you wouldnt have the skills and experience to warrant it. However when you get the chance to progress you wouldnt have to repeat all the learning, maybe some top up and all the on site stuff depending on pathway chosen
it is mainly theory as complex systems require knowledge, there is some practical but it tends to be coplex commissioning and wiring which is difficult but by nature doesnt take as long as l2 practical
IMO a good course but know what it is and what it isnt

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

 

[Kay101]

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

if you can only learn on the job why have any course?

yes you can learn the systems in the classroom, its called education, something im a big fan of. a learner should know its limitations, and so should employers, when i take someone who has completed a l3 whether it be 6035 or 6189 i support them through a period of furthe rlearning, expecting anyone to be full force after just finishing is unreasonable

yes im in the real world

 

[Jules]

I am sorry Kay but you really do need to get out into the real world!!

How is anyone suppose to learn these complex systems, you talk about & see how they apply to the other areas of the industry / subject if they have never been out on site for any length of time?
It just does not work.
I have seen a good number of apprentices over the years who started well at L2 some top of the class then watch them fall right down to the bottom by the time they are in the level 3 first year, why, because they worked for firms that did such limited variety of work that they just could not apply what was being taught, some were lucky enough to change jobs & flourished again, others who couldn't never completed it.

You claim its a good course but they should know what it is or isn't. That brings to mind the old adage "you don't know what you don't know" in other words how are you going to find out until your in it.

Chris do you think you could possibly comment without resorting to attacking people, especially when you know nothing about their background, qualifications or experience? It really does make you appear to have an almighty big chip on your shoulder which I am sure is the wrong impression of you, after all I don't even know you........?

 

[chris watkins]

if you can only learn on the job why have any course?

yes you can learn the systems in the classroom, its called education, something im a big fan of. a learner should know its limitations, and so should employers, when i take someone who has completed a l3 whether it be 6035 or 6189 i support them through a period of furthe rlearning, expecting anyone to be full force after just finishing is unreasonable

yes im in the real world

Of course you need both, on the job & class room training, that my :furious3😛oint.
I am sure your harts in the right place & you care but look back at some of your post.

Why have a complex Level 3 qualification for school levers (6035)?

Why is the 6035 L3 so similar to the 6189 but not quite ? Why not just have the one? The subject matter i.e. plumbing & heating does't change, does it? Stop pretending, its all about selling something & making money !!

 

[chris watkins]

chris do you think you could possibly comment without resorting to attacking people, especially when you know nothing about their background, qualifications or experience? It really does make you appear to have an almighty big chip on your shoulder which i am sure is the wrong impression of you, after all i don't even know you........?

no…..

 

[Kay101]

Of course you need both, on the job & class room training, that my :furious3😛oint.
I am sure your harts in the right place & you care but look back at some of your post.

Why have a complex Level 3 qualification for school levers (6035)?

Why is the 6035 L3 so similar to the 6189 but not quite ? Why not just have the one? The subject matter i.e. plumbing & heating does't change, does it? Stop pretending, its all about selling something & making money !!

why not have one? - if you are not employed you cannot gain the 6189-3, therefore there is a route for those with aspirations to enter the industry or with just an interest - we should not deny people the right to education, i support education and promote it
its not quite the same - correct and this protects industry whilst educating people - a win win
stop pretending its about making money? i was pretending or even mentioned money - this is about opportunities for people rather than an elitist right for the few

 

[teabreak]

I have read this complete post with interest.
Whilst I am a keen advocate of FE. I can tell by Chris's comments, that he comes from an experienced Plumbing background, as do I.
I fully support and endorse C&G 6035 Level II. However, it is impossible to become a Level III Plumber without real experience. When I say experience I mean a minimum of five years.

I am afraid that lack quality teaching staff, also impacts on the learners. Many 'Tutors' are employed with Level II Tech Certs, fresh from their own course. I feel passionately, about my profession as a Plumber & Heating Engineer. It remains my goal to pass on my knowledge (accumulated over 35+years in the industry) to anyone willing and wanting to learn. It is a mistake (in my opinion) to offer a Level III course to either full or part time learners, without any experience.

As a nation we have gradually 'dumbed' down vocational qualifications, to suit various political and financial agendas. Now with the advent of advanced technologies entering into our industry with increasing frequency. Will we surely find ourselves facing another skills shortage.

Bring back Lead into the plumbing syllabus, then students will need to master a real craft, to be proud of and burnt and scared hands​ to prove it.

 

[Jules]

I have read this complete post with interest.
Whilst I am a keen advocate of FE. I can tell by Chris's comments, that he comes from an experienced Plumbing background, as do I.
I fully support and endorse C&G 6035 Level II. However, it is impossible to become a Level III Plumber without real experience. When I say experience I mean a minimum of five years.

I am afraid that lack quality teaching staff, also impacts on the learners. Many 'Tutors' are employed with Level II Tech Certs, fresh from their own course. I feel passionately, about my profession as a Plumber & Heating Engineer. It remains my goal to pass on my knowledge (accumulated over 35+years in the industry) to anyone willing and wanting to learn. It is a mistake (in my opinion) to offer a Level III course to either full or part time learners, without any experience.

As a nation we have gradually 'dumbed' down vocational qualifications, to suit various political and financial agendas. Now with the advent of advanced technologies entering into our industry with increasing frequency. Will we surely find ourselves facing another skills shortage.

Bring back Lead into the plumbing syllabus, then students will need to master a real craft, to be proud of and burnt and scared hands​ to prove it.

I agree with everything here apart from the LEAD!
Having spent many years in the lead-acid battery industry, I have witnessed 1st-hand some of the health consequences of the stuff, and I say Good Riddance!

 

[teabreak]

The lead comment was tounge-in-cheek. However, it is/was what plumbings all about.

Thanks Jules, you certainly demonstrate a high level of commitment to your new chosen career. I wish you well and trust you succeed in the interesting and diverse world of Plumbing.

Best Wishes
Teabreak

 

[chris watkins]

I have read this complete post with interest.
Whilst I am a keen advocate of FE. I can tell by Chris's comments, that he comes from an experienced Plumbing background, as do I.
I fully support and endorse C&G 6035 Level II. However, it is impossible to become a Level III Plumber without real experience. When I say experience I mean a minimum of five years.

I am afraid that lack quality teaching staff, also impacts on the learners. Many 'Tutors' are employed with Level II Tech Certs, fresh from their own course. I feel passionately, about my profession as a Plumber & Heating Engineer. It remains my goal to pass on my knowledge (accumulated over 35+years in the industry) to anyone willing and wanting to learn. It is a mistake (in my opinion) to offer a Level III course to either full or part time learners, without any experience.

As a nation we have gradually 'dumbed' down vocational qualifications, to suit various political and financial agendas. Now with the advent of advanced technologies entering into our industry with increasing frequency. Will we surely find ourselves facing another skills shortage.

Bring back Lead into the plumbing syllabus, then students will need to master a real craft, to be proud of and burnt and scared hands​ to prove it.

Thank you teabreak for your eloquent posting, I could not agree more!

Your reasons for wanting to teach sound the same as mine 10 years ago. Although I would say I still had the passion to pass it on, you can't help but get beaten down by the poor wages, the use of teachers with little or no site experience & so much paper work along with senseless meetings. I am afraid the days of the old FE technical colleges that we attended are long gone.

My local one was staffed by the made up store man, Two H&V fitters one who had been on site for only a couple of years & the other who had done the course & then was the store man before being asked to teach it. Good lads but what a joke!

We also had management going to Australasia & NewZealand to recruit did not seem to worry them that the plumbing systems are not the same, still bet they didn't go anywhere near the beach.
Some people may wonder why I bang-on about the non NVQ qualifications being all about the money (income for the colleges) well perhaps you see why!

To enforce my point, I here that in the next funding review there will be no more public money of any Level 2 plumbing courses, as this is deemed to be too lower a skill set for modern plumbing & heating engineer. Only a course that goes through to Level 3 will have any funding.
Lets hope that this knowledge can be passed onto joe public if you want a bathroom fitted then employ a bathroom domestic installer, anything else & you had better get a Level 3 NVQ Plumbing & heating engineer.

I am about ready to accept two level or grades in the trade, the sparks now have it !!!
Though it breaks my hart.

 

[Kay101]

I have read this complete post with interest.
Whilst I am a keen advocate of FE. I can tell by Chris's comments, that he comes from an experienced Plumbing background, as do I.
I fully support and endorse C&G 6035 Level II. However, it is impossible to become a Level III Plumber without real experience. When I say experience I mean a minimum of five years.
I am afraid that lack quality teaching staff, also impacts on the learners. Many 'Tutors' are employed with Level II Tech Certs, fresh from their own course. I feel passionately, about my profession as a Plumber & Heating Engineer. It remains my goal to pass on my knowledge (accumulated over 35+years in the industry) to anyone willing and wanting to learn. It is a mistake (in my opinion) to offer a Level III course to either full or part time learners, without any experience.
As a nation we have gradually 'dumbed' down vocational qualifications, to suit various political and financial agendas. Now with the advent of advanced technologies entering into our industry with increasing frequency. Will we surely find ourselves facing another skills shortage.

Bring back Lead into the plumbing syllabus, then students will need to master a real craft, to be proud of and burnt and scared hands​ to prove it.

Great post

I dont feel the need for lead to be included, its done mainly by roofers now and the trade has evolved, we need to training to evolve with it.
Teachers CANNOT assess candidates work with only a tech cert
The 6035 level 3 does not mean the candidate is a L3 plumber, they must sign a disclaimer, if full time courses are a mistake what does it matter the level? They are either right or wrong. Without eh NVQ they cannot be classed as qualified anyway, L2 or 3
I dont support the qualifications have been 'dumbed down', Ive seen the work the students do at college, i think people just look back at their own with pride and like to say "it was harder in my day". I agree not all tutors have the same pride but think this is the exception not the rule so we shouldnt tie everyone with the same brush. Go into the colleges and see what they do, look at their books, take a real interest in what they deliver and you may be surprised. The dumbing down IMO isnt to do with the qual but with the approach to work and the work ethic which isnt unique to plumbing or education