Not happy with with new unvented system, although it works fine. Shower pressure issue

[kash]

Old setup.
Vented system - indirect
x2 Cold water tank in the loft. x2 80L Hot water tanks, regular boiler and stuart turner 4bar twin shower pump for the master bedroom shower. Worked pretty good, although the tanks were manky and old. The shower though was epic and used to blast water out. The house was gutted for refurbishment so plumber advised to change the set up for a new unvented system, that would deliver mains water pressure throughout the house. which it does.

New set up
Kingspan 300L horizontal tank. No shower pump and just the regular boiler. It’s all installed correctly, signed off and actually works quite well. All the taps and showers get mains water pressure.

Problem
I got too used to the shower pump pressure. The showerhead we have is an XL rainwater shower head and used to love the water blasting out. Whilst the showers still ok, it's just ok and not amazing anymore. If the shower in the family bathroom is run, there's a slight drop in pressure which i was expecting, but this makes the shower experience even less enjoyable.

Is there a solution?
We can’t install the same shower pump on the mains as it would draw too much water from the rest of the house and stop the other taps working - and probably mess with neighbours too. Assume this would also stop things like toilets refilling and draw air once water supply is exhausted.

So my questions are..... What is the solution for me to have a dedicated water supply for the shower again, so that I can use the pump?
Can I install a smaller vented system in addition to the unvented system that I have? The plumbers going to have a think on the best way of achieving this and let me know a price, but thought I’d ask on here too.

I know it’s potentially an expensive addition... but it just depends on cost. The shower is absolutely ok as it is, but i know how good it was and just wanted to make it awesome again.

Are there any other solutions that can be used with the new unvented tank I have?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Before I comment further can a pump be used for hot water outlets on an unvented cylinder @ShaunCorbs?

not for the outlet but you can pump the supply to it eg break tank and pump if pressure is an issue

but it sounds like flow is the problem but until we get some figures we can’t say

 

[kash]

What your plumber is suggesting is incorrect. You can't pump out of an unvented cylinder, you cannot also pump the cold from the tank and then have the hot supplied from the unvented.

He clearly doesn't know what he's doing, you need to get someone else in who can advise you much better.

As @ShaunCorbs says when need to know you incoming pressures, which you've been asked for a few times yet haven't provided them. You need to know these before you make any decision on what route to take.

He told me it was measured at 1.6bar before he started the work. Not sure what it is now - need to re-measure when he is next here.

 

[SJB060685]

1.6 bar is not good for unvented. As I said above, around that pressure you need a breaker tank and pumped mains with accumulator.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ok when he’s here next week get him to fill this out

Pressure static (no outlets open eg just the pressure gauge open) is _______ bar
Pressure dynamic (one additional outlet open) is ______ bar
Flow static (one outlet open) is ______ Lpm
Dynamic (two outlets open) is ______ Lpm

 

[kash]

1.6 bar is not good for unvented. As I said above, around that pressure you need a breaker tank and pumped mains with accumulator.

So his suggestion of 'making up' a breakter tank in loft level 2 is not an unsensible one?

In his defence he has not confirmed if this is what he is going to do but said he will look into it more for me and come up with the best solution based upon the space that I have.
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Ok when he’s here next week get him to fill this out

Pressure static (no outlets open eg just the pressure gauge open)
Pressure dynamic (one additional outlet open)
Flow static (one outlet open)
Dynamic (two outlets open)

Sure - will do.

 

[SJB060685]

A breaker tank is installed on incoming mains to propert, it is pumped thereafter either buy a pump or negative head pump to an accumulator. Both breaker tank and accumulator need to be sized correctly and installed correctly. It's called a breaker tank to isolate house water from mains, preventing any back flow into street mains which could cause problems and harm others. What hes suggesting in the loft could be called a breaker tank but not in this sense. Google boosted mains and look up the above. 1.6 bar is nothing and like Shaun says you need to know static and dynamic pressure and flow. Your incoming mains may not be suited to your requirements and should of been considered when designing the system. Remember a larger incoming pipe will give greater flow rates.

 

[Scott_D]

What size and material is your incoming water main?

 

[kash]

A breaker tank is installed on incoming mains to propert, it is pumped thereafter either buy a pump or negative head pump to an accumulator. Both breaker tank and accumulator need to be sized correctly and installed correctly. It's called a breaker tank to isolate house water from mains, preventing any back flow into street mains which could cause problems and harm others. What hes suggesting in the loft could be called a breaker tank but not in this sense. Google boosted mains and look up the above. 1.6 bar is nothing and like Shaun says you need to know static and dynamic pressure and flow. Your incoming mains may not be suited to your requirements and should of been considered when designing the system. Remember a larger incoming pipe will give greater flow rates.

The I've read the manual and it says "Water supply An adequate and reliable mains water supply is essential to ensure Albion Ultrasteel, Ultrasteel Plus and Aerocyl cylinders deliver the quality and reliable performance you’d expect. We recommend a minimum supply pressure of 1.5 bar, with a flow rate of 25 litres/min. "

I defo don't have a flow rate of 25L per minute.

Just waiting to my guy to come back to me and will hopefully be able to get the readings requested.

Also, just for my understanding. Would we need a break tank AND accumulator, or one or the other?
I think he was saying that we would potentially install the tank on level 2 and pump this TO the unvented cylinder.

 

[SJB060685]

As I said plumbing is not my thing, my knowledge lies elsewhere in the industry. My understanding is you would use either an accumulator or a breaker tank, pump set and accumulator. The break tank is usually installed on the inlet to the property, away from areas of quiet interest due to pump noise and pumped thereafter to the dwelling outlets. You are sizing for both hot and cold pipework distribution, so the breaker tank will need to be sized correctly. This also provides a short fall should your incoming mains be subject to problems ie, work being done in the street. If pressure is ok (in your case borderline) then you could get away with just a suitably sized accumulator. With the pump set you are solely relying on it to provide the pressure and flow to the property, with the accumulator making use of the energy provided.
As I and others have said above, your incoming supply should have been the first thing to check when considering this type of system, quite often and what seems to be your case is the incoming mains to house will not be sufficient and upgrading is necessary, the bigger the supply line the better, pressure will be whatever it is by the provider but your flow rates will be much greater .

 

[kash]

As I said plumbing is not my thing, my knowledge lies elsewhere in the industry. My understanding is you would use either an accumulator or a breaker tank, pump set and accumulator. The break tank is usually installed on the inlet to the property, away from areas of quiet interest due to pump noise and pumped thereafter to the dwelling outlets. You are sizing for both hot and cold pipework distribution, so the breaker tank will need to be sized correctly. This also provides a short fall should your incoming mains be subject to problems ie, work being done in the street. If pressure is ok (in your case borderline) then you could get away with just a suitably sized accumulator. With the pump set you are solely relying on it to provide the pressure and flow to the property, with the accumulator making use of the energy provided.
As I and others have said above, your incoming supply should have been the first thing to check when considering this type of system, quite often and what seems to be your case is the incoming mains to house will not be sufficient and upgrading is necessary, the bigger the supply line the better, pressure will be whatever it is by the provider but your flow rates will be much greater .

I really appreciate all the advice you and eveyone else has given to do date. I'm no expert hence the reason I come on such forums. I like to try and understand as much as I can from non bias sources and not just rely on what 1 tradesman tells me.

In this instance, its obviously too late to go back - obviously these things should have been checked first. Whilst he did show me the flow rate and pressure, i never noted it down and I was told it was decent. However, looking at the manaul now I can see for myself that it probably isn't sufficient for the setup I now have; thus said, now need to find the best solution.

I feel like it's going to be a case of installing these tanks in the loft at the moment. Just hope it's not going to cost an arm and a leg to restore a decent shower and simultanious output in the house.

 

[SJB060685]

You did the right thing coming on this site, there is literally decades of experience between the users. Unfortunately like you said you're past the point of no return. Unfortunately again you have a couple choices, either pay lots more to upgrade incoming mains, add booster pumps, breaker tank and accumulator etc or pay to have an open vented system re installed with same layout as before to achieve the shower you desire, either way is likely to cost a fair amount. Unvented HW supply is a God send but as you've learnt the hard way it needs to be done properly and it appears your installer might not be as well informed as he suggests

 

[kash]

So this what he sent me in terms of the solution, based upon the space I have available (other than ripping out the new unvented tank)

I’ll ask him to take the pressure and flow readings before though.
..........
Installation of 3 x 25gallon tank in small loft to include supply of materials and tanks.

The tanks will be mains supplied and will give cold supply to the new unvented hot water cylinder.

These tanks will also supply cold feed to shower in ensuite and shower in main bathroom (which will be pumped by double pump allready on site, installed in small loft).

hot water will be pumped everywhere in the house by the other single pump installed in big loft (both pumps already on site and available from previous set up)

£730
......

 

[ShaunCorbs]

them pumps arnt suitable for boosting a whole house / what hes intending them for

 

[SJB060685]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is he suggesting piping the cold feed to unvented cylinder from these proposed new storage tanks in the loft?

 

[kash]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is he suggesting piping the cold feed to unvented cylinder from these proposed new storage tanks in the loft?

Yes i believe so....?

 

[SJB060685]

Then that wont be mains pressure anymore.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Then that wont be mains pressure anymore.

with a single imp shower pump

 

[SJB060685]

Ah I misread that. So he's intending to use a shower pump to boost HW supply to house? Strange

 

[kash]

Ah I misread that. So he's intending to use a shower pump to boost HW supply to house? Strange

I think this is how it was set up before (from the previous owner) i had the new tank installed. Any time the hot water was running, the pump used to kick in.

Even if it’s strange, it will work right?

Alternatively he may have meant that hot and cold for the showers will be then pumped, but everting else will be mains pressure.

I’ll ask him to draw up a little diagram too just so that I have it for my own future reference.

Also, if those pumps are not suitable, which ones would be? These are the pumps that were there before and they seemed to work pretty well, except for the noise element. I can live with the noise over flow/pressure though.

 

[SJB060685]

You'd have to ask Shaun or someone else who does plumbing work daily with regards to what pump is suitable for what you're suggesting because I honestly don't know. If your plumber is intending on keeping your unvented cylinder mains pressure and using tanks in loft for showers then he would also be installing a dedicated vented cylinder for the shower hot water, more money and parts and another zone for your CH system, unless it was direct heated through an immersion heater.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

SCALA2

SCALA2 is an integrated, self-priming, compact water booster pump. It is designed for perfect pressure inside the home. It’s quiet, easy to install, and maintains consistent pressure in all taps at all times.

uk.grundfos.com

ESYBOX MINI 3 | DAB Pumps

Esybox Mini 3 has a different appearance than any other booster set and is small and completely integrated. Once you install and use it, you realize that the real difference is in the comfort and performance. Esybox Mini 3 uses the most advanced DAB technologies to create constant pressure...

www.dabpumps.com

thats rated for constant use

 

[kash]

SCALA2

SCALA2 is an integrated, self-priming, compact water booster pump. It is designed for perfect pressure inside the home. It’s quiet, easy to install, and maintains consistent pressure in all taps at all times.

uk.grundfos.com

ESYBOX MINI 3 | DAB Pumps

Esybox Mini 3 has a different appearance than any other booster set and is small and completely integrated. Once you install and use it, you realize that the real difference is in the comfort and performance. Esybox Mini 3 uses the most advanced DAB technologies to create constant pressure...

www.dabpumps.com

thats rated for constant use

Thanks buddy

I’ll double check the other pump that I have to see what type of pump it is. If it is just a normal shower pump would it be the end of the world as a temp solution, given the cost factor?

 

[Chuck]

Seems like a bit of a Heath Robinson solution to me. Is upgrading the supply pipe to something correctly sized out of the question?

 

[kash]

Seems like a bit of a Heath Robinson solution to me. Is upgrading the supply pipe to something correctly sized out of the question?

Unfortunately yes. All refurbishment is now complete. As I had moved out the property, the problem was not something discovered until we moved back in.

On initial inspection all seemed ok as it was just viewed with one shower / tap running. It was only in the ‘real world’ it became an an issue.

It’s going to have to be a similar solution to what’s listed above at this point. 😣
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I've quickly drawn up 3 versions of what the set up could/would be to confirm my understanding. I think it's the 1st one (su1) based on what he wrote, but drawn up another 2 set ups. I've asked him to confirm or correct....

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

also need them figures ?

 

[kash]

Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

he's just come back to me suggesting that this set up will be the one he intends to use.

What yould your suggestion be if none of them are correct?
updated diagram below.

I have looked at the Grundfos Scala2 pump you sent the link to. If I do get this, would it go BEFORE the unvented cylinder and FROM the water talnk in the loft.

Shaun - any chance of a quick chat?
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Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

also need them figures ?

I'll get those figures thursday.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

 

[SJB060685]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

I think his plumber is suggesting using the unvented cylinder as vented now Shaun!?

 

[kash]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

Really appreciate the feedback and help - I don't want to waste any more money and time.

I'm going to show this thread to him later.

Someone actually came out to check his work and a NAPIT certificate was issued?

Is the now attached what your suggesting based upon your last comment (i ask as not sure what the 'balanced' cold bit refers to)

These are the tanks he is supplying: Polytank Cold Water Tank 25gallon (UK) 690 x 515 x 520mm - https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/polytank-cold-water-tank-25gallon-uk-690-x-515-x-520mm/10500

The file can be edited from think link via draw.io if anyone wishes to edit?

Google Drive: Sign-in

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Will draw something up later

 

[kash]

Will draw something up later

Thank you. He's supposed to be coming to do the work thursday so trying to get the info I need before then to ensure we have the best set up/solution.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

 

[SJB060685]

So the pump would go on cold inlet to cylinder and pump through it to HW outlets Shaun?

 

[kash]

like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

Thanks a million.

I think that all makes sense to me- apart from the unvented control block. What is that/how does it it work? Is this another unit device- rough cost?

And I see now shower pumps here- is there any way I could use this instead of the Grundfos pump as it’s at least another £400 ontop or the £700 he’s quoted me to do this week work- ontop of the £16-700 ive already paid.

Will show this to my guy and see what he thinks.

Can’t thank you enough for your input
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like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

Also, my unvented tank is 300L So think the 3 25gallon tanks = 340ish L? Should be enough?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So the pump would go on cold inlet to cylinder and pump through it to HW outlets Shaun?

yes and being fed via the tanks so its boosted upto what every you set the pumps at then reduced down at the control block
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Thanks a million.

I think that all makes sense to me- apart from the unvented control block. What is that/how does it it work? Is this another unit device- rough cost?

And I see now shower pumps here- is there any way I could use this instead of the Grundfos pump as it’s at least another £400 ontop or the £700 he’s quoted me to do this week work- ontop of the £16-700 ive already paid.

Will show this to my guy and see what he thinks.

Can’t thank you enough for your input
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Also, my unvented tank is 300L So think the 3 25gallon tanks = 340ish L? Should be enough?

sorry thought your tanks were in Litres 😀 should be enough but depends on your mains flow rate dynamic

also the control block he should know what this is and its already fitted

tbh you shouldnt have to pay anything as its his mistake not checking things first and good enough