Position of boiler flue in relation to velux window, advice pleas

[Debra Beagle]

We have concerns about the closeness of our boiler flue to the neighbours velux window. Conditions permitting and the window open the flue emissions are blown straight into the window and we are obviously concerned as to wether this could be potentially harmful to the individual sleeping in this room.
According to regulations we are under the impression that a flue cannot be within 2 metres below a velux window nor 600mm to the side of one and unfortunately if this is the case our flue is within those measurements, however the flue has been there many years and the velux window has just been put into the new extension.
Our gas safe registered fitter has noted a concern to gas safe who have basically told us that the will not pay a visit because it is not in their remit and have advised us to contact building control but because the neighbours have used a private building inspector the local council cannot get involved. The next step was to speak to the actual building inspector on the job but he was not interested in our concerns because the builder had told him it was not a problem. We even directed the guy to planning portal part j, pointed out by gas safe, to where there is a diagram of a velux window and dimensions from a flue but because it was picturing a vertical flue and not a horizontal flue like ours he was not interested. Isn’t the definition of a flue ‘an outlet producing waste gases’?
We have enlightened the neighbours with our concerns but after initially being concerned they have been reassured by their builder that their window is correct and it is our flue that is wrong, however according to regulations and plenty of measuring for reassurance our boiler has been fitted correctly.
All we want is for someone with some knowledge and authority to come and assess the situation so we can be reassured that we are not going to kill anyone because surely they have all of these rules and regulations for a reason.

 

[Scott_D]

your flue should be 300mm from the boundry line
you can add a plume management kit to direct it away from the roof window

 

[Debra Beagle]

Unfortunately according to our gas fitter there isn’t a plume kit available for this boiler. Distance from boundary wall is within regs.

 

[Scott_D]

Looks like a modern Ideal flue?

 

[Aire]

Looks like a modern Ideal flue?

If it is there shouldn't be any white showing

 

[Aire]

The best thing to do is send the pictures to the boiler manufacturer and ask their advice. A flue terminal only has to be 300mm away from a opening/window. The plume you see which gets blown into the window is mostly water vapour and the actual flue gases will be heavily diluted by the outside air. But for your own piece of mind. Contact the manufacturer and they will tell you if it's right or not.

 

[Sharp Point]

Change it to vertical flue..... job done

 

[Riley]

Yeah that’s what I suggested too

 

[Sharp Point]

Yeah that’s what I suggested too

Sometimes it’s just easier to bite the bullet on issues that could cause you more grief in the long term.

 

[Sharp Point]

Nothing worse than a breakdown of relationships with neighbours.

 

[Stu-B]

I’d give the manufacturers a call and see what their take on it is if you want full reassurance. It looks like an ideal terminal to me and just looking in one of their current manuals it states 300mm from an opening etc, only 2000mm if it’s a vertical flue.
Your situation isn’t on their plan, you could say an opening doesn’t include velux windows because they are specified further down the page, so before you start to shell out on a verticals flue, i’d certainly give the manufacturers a buzz.

Good luck

 

[Debra Beagle]

Thanks for all of the input. Spoken to Ideal and they verified the measurements as 2000mm below and 600mm to the side , as with the vertical flue. Was told to report to gas safe as breaching health and safety.....head and wall comes to mind.

 

[Scott_D]

The boiler was there before the extension?

 

[Debra Beagle]

Yep certainly was.

 

[Chalked]

Thanks for all of the input. Spoken to Ideal and they verified the measurements as 2000mm below and 600mm to the side , as with the vertical flue. Was told to report to gas safe as breaching health and safety...head and wall comes to mind.

I’m afraid it’s your problem, not theirs. Your boiler terminates over into their boundary. They can have you move it as a nuisance.
I would just get yours altered to a vertical flue. This should cost around the £500 mark, depending on access to the roof.

 

[Scott_D]

I’m afraid it’s your problem, not theirs. Your boiler terminates over into their boundary. They can have you move it as a nuisance.
I would just get yours altered to a vertical flue. This should cost around the £500 mark, depending on access to the roof.

Is that correct?
I would have thought which ever was in place first has the right to be there (if installed st correct distances)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is that correct?
I would have thought which ever was in place first has the right to be there (if installed st correct distances)

If it terminates over there boundary and isn’t to regs spacing yes they can inform you to move your flue

 

[Scott_D]

But it doesn’t terminate over the neighbours boundary
They built an extension with a window too close to the existing flue

 

[Aire]

If the boiler was there before the extention then it's not your problem. The builder should have seeked professional advice from a plumber to make sure they could build the wall and put a velux so close to the flue.
I would still advise that you send a picture to ideal as the measurements they have given you are for a vertical flue, your flue is not vertical.
If they still reply saying the flue is wrong, then I would speak to your neighbours about contacting the builder to correct your flue at his expense.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

But it doesn’t terminate over the neighbours boundary
They built an extension with a window too close to the existing flue

The extension is on the neighbors land so is on there boundary

 

[Debra Beagle]

The flue in no way terminates over their boundary it runs parallel to it so that is not an issue. Concerning Ideal, I specifically asked them if the dimensions also related to horizontal flues to which they replied it didn’t matter if it was horizontal or vertical.

 

[Debra Beagle]

The flue also measure more than 300mm from the boundary.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The flue in no way terminates over their boundary it runs parallel to it so that is not an issue. Concerning Ideal, I specifically asked them if the dimensions also related to horizontal flues to which they replied it didn’t matter if it was horizontal or vertical.

So below the flue is your land eg your conservatory / upvc structure

 

[Sharp Point]

Debra, it’s one of those situations where it’s so grey. Yes it probably meets regs, but as you say if wind blows combustion products into that bedroom... morally it’ll play on your mind.

 

[Debra Beagle]

Yes that’s correct it is our property below the flue.

 

[Sharp Point]

Have you actually had a sit down and chat with your neighbours? Maybe asked them for a contribution to the cost of a vertical flue.

 

[Riley]

Have you actually had a sit down and chat with your neighbours? Maybe asked them for a contribution to the cost of a vertical flue.

What we both said at the start

 

[Aire]

I'd still, for how long it will take, email a picture to ideal. You can easily misunderstand someone when talking over the phone. They will also advise you of your best option to safely terminate the flue.

Out of curiosity what was patched up below the flue? It looks like the same bricks as the extention so was this done at the same time the extention was been built?

 

[Riley]

Good spot

 

[Sharp Point]

What we both said at the start

You did say it mate and imitation is the nicest form of flattery 😀

 

[Murdoch]

Did you have a party wall agreement signed before the extension was undertaken? and if so what does it say?

 

[Debra Beagle]

Craig Watson the bricks from an extension of ours we had a couple of months before boiler was fitted years ago.

 

[Debra Beagle]

Is that correct?
I would have thought which ever was in place first has the right to be there (if installed st correct distances)

According to gas safe whichever was there first has the right to be there

 

[Debra Beagle]

I’m afraid it’s your problem, not theirs. Your boiler terminates over into their boundary. They can have you move it as a nuisance.
I would just get yours altered to a vertical flue. This should cost around the £500 mark, depending on access to the roof.

boiler does not terminate over their property

 

[Riley]

You said it’s on the boundary?

 

[Debra Beagle]

You said it’s on the boundary?

The flue measures more than 300mm away running parallel to the boundary line

 

[Riley]

It’s another grey area, is the end of the flue 300mm away from the boundary, although it’s not facing the boundary I’d argue that it could still effectively be classed as a nuisance

 

[Debra Beagle]

It’s another grey area, is the end of the flue 300mm away from the boundary, although it’s not facing the boundary I’d argue that it could still effectively be classed as a nuisance

Yes the end of the flue is 300mm away. We have measured again for reassurance.
With respect, the boiler has been fitted correctly according to the regulations at the time when it was. fitted,the nuisance scenario has only occurred since the erection of their building, and as gas safe have said, the boiler was situated first.
Regarding the neighbours, we have informed them that it could be potentially dangerous to them but we believe that the builder has reassured them that all is ok and pointed out to them that our bedroom window is closer to the flue than their velux!......obviously he has not really taken into consideration that it is over 300mm away from,and projecting out away from our window( and because heat rises) being directly blown into the open velux window. There are a few of us living in our house and if we all have a shower straight after one another then that is producing a lot of waste gases consistently for a good while.
I Find it quite shocking that this scenario can occur and it appears that it is down to us to change things on our property when we have abided by regulations.
Again thank you for all of the input, I think the next step is to speak to environmental health as was suggested by gas safe

 

[Murdoch]

I Find it quite shocking that this scenario can occur and it appears that it is down to us to change things on our property when we have abided by regulations.

I note you didn't respond to my point about the party wall agreement ........ had you had one, this would probably have flagged up the issue with the boiler ......... and remember the party wall agreement costs are ALL paid for by the neighbour doing the work!

 

[Debra Beagle]

I note you didn't respond to my point about the party wall agreement . had you had one, this would probably have flagged up the issue with the boiler ... and remember the party wall agreement costs are ALL paid for by the neighbour doing the work!

No party wall agreement. In fact not much communication by neighbours about the whole process. They asked for permission for the builder on our property to which we agreed on the condition that the discussed with us what they were going to do.......to cut a long story short I had a visit from the scaffolder on the day to tell me what he was going to do to my property to enable the build to go ahead. Unfortunately I was not prepared to let them drill holes into my walls for them to fix the scaffolding to.........to which I got a mouthful of abuse. Five days later and no communication from anyone I came home to scaffolding on my property which I was not too thrilled about as had no communication from anyone. Due to the fact that my husband is in the construction trade we allowed them to keep it as it was so they could get the job done as quickly as possible.
The fascinating thing is that the bricklayer would have had boiler fumes continually blowing in his face while working because it was winter and our heating would have been on continually.........you would have thought that it may have been noticed then!

 

[Murdoch]

^^ if you husband is in the trade I'm amazed that he didn't insist on a party wall agreement ...................

 

[Riley]

I understand the frustration but the positioning of your flue cannot prevent your neighbour making alterations to the house, granted it could’ve been handled very differently, as above with the party wall arrangement.

Please give consideration as was previously mentioned in this thread that within centimetres of the end of the flue any of the gases are massively massively diluted down by contact with their air.

I would still say that the best answer here is to talk properly with your neighbour. So many of these things can be solved with proper communication rather than just flying off the handle or going heavy handed.

And also a brick layer lays bricks. He is not going to know about flue positioning etc. I make this argument so many times that builders build plumbers plumb electricians to electric stick to our own tasks and things get done better generally

 

[Debra Beagle]

^^ if you husband is in the trade I'm amazed that he didn't insist on a party wall agreement ....

Forgive me for my ignorance but what would a party wall agreement have changed , we knew they were building which we didn’t have a problem with, however they were building to a planning notice that lacked definite written dimensions ( as I’m sure you’re aware that means that the builder and the home owner are left to hopefully produce a build that visually matches the plan,) in this case the lack of measurements has, in my opinion , lead to the window matching the drawings but potentially not matching building regs ( planning portal part j ).

 

[Riley]

I would ask Gas Safe to come out and do an inspection if you are that concerned. You have been reassured on here you have been told by manufacturers that the spec sounds okay I’m not sure what else we can tell you. The pluming whilst most likely is safe could be deemed a nuisance but as your neighbour has built an extension and you’ve been accommodating I can’t see them complaining however if they sell in the future and your new neighbours complain this is where the issue arises

 

[Scott_D]

Can you get to the end of your flue or is the conservatory preventing access?

 

[Debra Beagle]

I would ask Gas Safe to come out and do an inspection if you are that concerned. You have been reassured on here you have been told by manufacturers that the spec sounds okay I’m not sure what else we can tell you. The pluming whilst most likely is safe could be deemed a nuisance but as your neighbour has built an extension and you’ve been accommodating I can’t see them complaining however if they sell in the future and your new neighbours complain this is where the issue arises

Gas safe refuse to come out, even though our gas fitter has submitted a concern and also a requested a visit

 

[Debra Beagle]

Can you get to the end of your flue or is the conservatory preventing access?

Yes we can

 

[Scott_D]

Yes we can

Get a gas safe engineer to fit one of these

 

[Stu-B]

Get a gas safe engineer to fit one of these

That won’t make any difference, flue terminal, position does not change by fitting a plume kit.

 

[Scott_D]

That won’t make any difference, flue terminal, position does not change by fitting a plume kit.

True but it will direct it up and away.
As this isn’t clear cut right/wrong case it’s a step in the right direction.

 

[Rob Foster]

I have seen similar issues before. Normally sticking a flue out over an adjoining property is fine. However things move on and I have seen people who want to extend make their neighbours remove the offending outlet as it technically is an infringement on their property. This falls into this category and might be deemed unsafe regarding the new velux. Plainly the flue was right but no longer. I am a sensible householder and would never want to gas my neighbour, however if my neighbour approached me ...I would offer to share the costs if a vertical flue arrangement...then we all sleep soundly ...AND wake up. Thats the important bit centralheatking

 

[quality]

A bit of cooperation goes a long way

 

[Debra Beagle]

I have seen similar issues before. Normally sticking a flue out over an adjoining property is fine. However things move on and I have seen people who want to extend make their neighbours remove the offending outlet as it technically is an infringement on their property. This falls into this category and might be deemed unsafe regarding the new velux. Plainly the flue was right but no longer. I am a sensible householder and would never want to gas my neighbour, however if my neighbour approached me ...I would offer to share the costs if a vertical flue arrangement...then we all sleep soundly ...AND wake up. Thats the important bit centralheatking

Hi Rob, I think your misunderstanding the siting of the flue as it does not stick out over the neighbours property, it’s sticks out over our conservatory on our property.........

 

[Rob Foster]

ok, now I see, the rear of your property wraps around the side of the neighbouring home with the velux. Your neighbours retro fitted an opening and ventilating velux type roof window AFTER your boiler and fan assisted flue were installed.
There is concern that under certain circumstances, wind etc and the 'throw' of the fan the exhaust gas might enter what might be a bedroom in your neighbours property where someone might be asleep. It would be reasonable to expect their work came under building regulations and they would have proof of this. The resonsibility lies firmly with your neighbour AND the local authority building control. However right you may be it is still a concern for all three parties...building regs .or not ..arrange an urgent visit from building control and advise your neighbour to firmly close the velux and close the vent option permenantly until the position is ratified. let us know how you get on. Rob Foster
centralheatking

 

[Debra Beagle]

ok, now I see, the rear of your property wraps around the side of the neighbouring home with the velux. Your neighbours retro fitted an opening and ventilating velux type roof window AFTER your boiler and fan assisted flue were installed.
There is concern that under certain circumstances, wind etc and the 'throw' of the fan the exhaust gas might enter what might be a bedroom in your neighbours property where someone might be asleep. It would be reasonable to expect their work came under building regulations and they would have proof of this. The resonsibility lies firmly with your neighbour AND the local authority building control. However right you may be it is still a concern for all three parties...building regs .or not ..arrange an urgent visit from building control and advise your neighbour to firmly close the velux and close the vent option permenantly until the position is ratified. let us know how you get on. Rob Foster
centralheatking

Rob, we have contacted local building control but they have informed us due to the builder using a private building inspector they are not allowed to get involved. We have spoken to the building inspector on the job who apparently was reassured by the builder that not a problem because our flue was closer to our bedroom window! We did speak to him again and showed him a diagram from building regs planning portal,which has been posted on this thread, concerning distance between velux and flue but due to the fact that on the diagram it was a vertical flue and not horizontal one he said it didn’t apply. We did also point out the definition of a flue and it was unimportant wether horizontal or vertical.
The neighbours are aware of the situation but we believe again they have been reassured by the builder that there is not a problem.
We are also aware that it is being decorated at present for use as a bedroom.
This build has been done on a building notice were building can be carried out without submission of full plans ( very interesting as this means it is up to the builder and homeowner to abide by regs if they are aware of them!) like I say , the use of a private inspector has the local council unable to get involved.
We are at a loss.

 

[hammers4spanner]

We have enlightened the neighbours with our concerns but after initially being concerned they have been reassured by their builder that their window is correct and it is our flue that is wrong.

Haha typical builder response as we all know here builders are all knowing about flues ffs

 

[hammers4spanner]

Take the builder to court soon hear the reverse beeps of the builders comments.
My inlaws neighbour had an extension done where they built the extension the flue terminates in the gutter .
Totally acceptable according to the builder lol

 

[oz-plumber]

All you can do is send the neighbours a letter, with the flue clearances diagram included.
Stipulate all your concerns and await a reply in writing.

Demand them to get something in writing from themselves, the builder and the private building inspector.

This may make the builder and inspector take some notice.

Other than that there is not much you can do, unless you want to pay out of your pocket for the flue to be rectified for your peace of mind.

As difficult as it may seem, just cover your concerns so that you will be deemed to have raised your concerns with the neighbour.

 

[Riley]

I’m very surprised that Gas Safe won’t investigate. I often find its who you talk to that depends what sort of response you get

 

[Rob Foster]

Rob, we have contacted local building control but they have informed us due to the builder using a private building inspector they are not allowed to get involved. We have spoken to the building inspector on the job who apparently was reassured by the builder that not a problem because our flue was closer to our bedroom window! We did speak to him again and showed him a diagram from building regs planning portal,which has been posted on this thread, concerning distance between velux and flue but due to the fact that on the diagram it was a vertical flue and not horizontal one he said it didn’t apply. We did also point out the definition of a flue and it was unimportant wether horizontal or vertical.
The neighbours are aware of the situation but we believe again they have been reassured by the builder that there is not a problem.
We are also aware that it is being decorated at present for use as a bedroom.
This build has been done on a building notice were building can be carried out without submission of full plans ( very interesting as this means it is up to the builder and homeowner to abide by regs if they are aware of them!) like I say , the use of a private inspector has the local council unable to get involved.
We are at a loss.

Your next step is really quite simple now. Cover your arse !
Go to a local simple solicitor get the practice to draft a simple letter of information regarding the situation and clearly stipulate that all regulations and relevant authorities are aware of the situation and your property is in the clear. The actions of your neighbour and their agents might have placed them in a dangerous situation.
Your solicitor will advise about the method of service to ensure
you have proof of their reciept and the local building authorities etc and then. RELAX..if you want a hand drafting this letter I am happy to help as will others on here, you have been left in an invidious position.
Rob Foster ...aka centralheatking

 

[Chuck]

The actions of your neighbour and their agents might have placed them in a dangerous situation.

Or, the neighbour might have simply been exercising their lawful rights to enjoy their own property without being poisoned by fumes that the OP is producing and allowing to cross the boundary. Just because Gas/Building Regs were complied with at one point in the past does not mean that there are no other legal issues.

IMO, the best advice in this thread so far has been post #15, i.e. spend £500 to get a vertical flue installed through the roof. My bet is that's all a solicitor will tell the OP to do in any case.

One thing I do know about the law of property is that it is very complicated and getting reliable advice is going to be expensive. If the OP can fix the problem permanently for less than £5k then they should do so because that's still going to be cheaper than the alternatives. A Gas Safe Installer charges ca £40 an hour, a solicitor will charge £200 an hour to ask the opinion of a barrister who charges £400 hour!

 

[Rob Foster]

Or, the neighbour might have simply been exercising their lawful rights to enjoy their own property without being poisoned by fumes that the OP is producing and allowing to cross the boundary. Just because Gas/Building Regs were complied with at one point in the past does not mean that there are no other legal issues.

IMO, the best advice in this thread so far has been post #15, i.e. spend £500 to get a vertical flue installed through the roof. My bet is that's all a solicitor will tell the OP to do in any case.

One thing I do know about the law of property is that it is very complicated and getting reliable advice is going to be expensive. If the OP can fix the problem permanently for less than £5k then they should do so because that's still going to be cheaper than the alternatives. A Gas Safe Installer charges ca £40 an hour, a solicitor will charge £200 an hour to ask the opinion of a barrister who charges £400 hour!

a decent solicitor/barrister outfit costs £35o
per hour ...I paid that last Friday...and was happy because they got a result centralheatking

 

[Debra Beagle]

Or, the neighbour might have simply been exercising their lawful rights to enjoy their own property without being poisoned by fumes that the OP is producing and allowing to cross the boundary. Just because Gas/Building Regs were complied with at one point in the past does not mean that there are no other legal issues.

IMO, the best advice in this thread so far has been post #15, i.e. spend £500 to get a vertical flue installed through the roof. My bet is that's all a solicitor will tell the OP to do in any case.

One thing I do know about the law of property is that it is very complicated and getting reliable advice is going to be expensive. If the OP can fix the problem permanently for less than £5k then they should do so because that's still going to be cheaper than the alternatives. A Gas Safe Installer charges ca £40 an hour, a solicitor will charge £200 an hour to ask the opinion of a barrister who charges £400 hour!

Chuck, nobody is denying them to exercise their rights to enjoy their own property, as long as they stick to building and gas regs that both have the same opinion about the distance from a flue to velux window.
The flue still complies to regs now, it is their positioning of the velux window that does not. As gas safe has said ‘ whichever was there first has the right to be there’.
What is the point to these regulations if people to not take notice.

 

[Murdoch]

OP I note you didn’t comment on my post #31

I suggest you find a local party wall surveyor and see what they say ......

 

[Rob Foster]

OP I note you didn’t comment on my post #31

I suggest you find a local party wall surveyor and see what they say ..

Jeff Howell...is a very experienced party wall surveyor
he used to do the Sunday Telegraph column and operates in London and the home counties. centralheatking

 

[Chuck]

What is the point to these regulations if people to not take notice.

You seem to be trying to persuade yourself that your neighbour, who neither owns nor benefits from your boiler or flue is the person responsible for ensuring your property complies with the Gas Safety Regulations.

I disagree. You own the boiler and you own the flue. In my opinion, that makes it your problem to ensure that the installation complies with Gas Safety Regulations and to ensure that your fumes don't cause harm or nusiance to your neighbours.

Anyway, you're not going to get the answer you want here so you need to ask a solicitor. Come back and let us know what they advise so we can all learn.

 

[Chuck]

a decent solicitor/barrister outfit costs £35o
per hour ...I paid that last Friday...and was happy because they got a result centralheatking

I assume that they got you off with a caution then?

🙂

 

[Debra Beagle]

You seem to be trying to persuade yourself that your neighbour, who neither owns nor benefits from your boiler or flue is the person responsible for ensuring your property complies with the Gas Safety Regulations.

I disagree. You own the boiler and you own the flue. In my opinion, that makes it your problem to ensure that the installation complies with Gas Safety Regulations and to ensure that your fumes don't cause harm or nusiance to your neighbours.

Anyway, you're not going to get the answer you want here so you need to ask a solicitor. Come back and let us know what they advise so we can all learn.

With respect , our boiler and flue does comply to regulations, as I keep saying ,gas safe have told us that whatever was there first has the right to be there. Thanks for everyone s input......hopefully we will find an answer somewhere.

 

[Riley]

You see I also disagree and don’t think your flue is your neighbours responsibility. If there had been communication and agreement put in place then maybe. However now the thing is built, short of getting gas safe out, which they will, not sure why you’ve been told otherwise. I don’t personally think you’ll get many gas safe companies being too committal as it’s adhoc. Go back to gas safe and stress the issue

 

[Scott_D]

Think how many terraced houses have the boiler in the back bedroom the same as this.
If every neighbour built a rear extension with a window next to the flue they would all have to be changed??

 

[Rob Foster]

Think how many terraced houses have the boiler in the back bedroom the same as this.
If every neighbour built a rear extension with a window next to the flue they would all have to be changed??

each one on its merits, there was an unfortunate one years ago with a fan flue venting into an alleyway which then killed a kid in his ground floor bebroom
via a window way beyond regulation distance
centralheatking

 

[Rob Foster]

You see I also disagree and don’t think your flue is your neighbours responsibility. If there had been communication and agreement put in place then maybe. However now the thing is built, short of getting gas safe out, which they will, not sure why you’ve been told otherwise. I don’t personally think you’ll get many gas safe companies being too committal as it’s adhoc. Go back to gas safe and stress the issue

I would be inclined to check that the occupation of the roof bedroom is lawfull, whatever the ....builder says...well he would wouldnt he
centralheatking

 

[Riley]

Call GAS SAFE

 

[CHRISX]

Think how many terraced houses have the boiler in the back bedroom the same as this.
If every neighbour built a rear extension with a window next to the flue they would all have to be changed??

Hello scott_d / Debra Beagle,

I am not trying to argue that Gas Safety / the safety of the OP`s neighbours is not the most important factor in cases such as this but I agree with Scott`s point.

When a Gas Boiler is installed correctly regarding the location of the Flue / where the Flue / Products of Combustion are not being discharged over a Neighbours boundary which seems to be the case in this example and the Neighbour then has a Window installed where none existed previously and the new window then falls within an area where the products of combustion could possibly be blown to enter the window it is the installation of the WINDOW that has caused the possibly dangerous situation NOT the Gas Boiler.

Although I don`t doubt that the Householder / Builder / Roofer who fitted the Velux Window did not even think about the Boiler Flue let alone have the knowledge to know that they were doing anything wrong by fitting it - the theory related to `Gas Safety` situations such as this from the HSE / Building Regulations suggest that they should have at least looked at the adjacent area for the presence of anything that could affect a new Velux Window - but especially an adjacent Gas Appliance / Flue.

As Scott-d described there will be Boilers installed all over the UK where the Flue currently discharges towards [but NOT over] a Neighbours boundary - if an Extension to the property was then built it would have to be designed to ensure that a Window was NOT located opposite the neighbouring Boiler Flue because although the Flue Gasses were previously not discharging over the boundary a new window immediately adjacent to the boundary could have some Products of Combustion blown into it depending on Wind conditions and become a Gas Safety issue.

How many times in the past have we read about seen photos of a Conservatory where it has been built leaving a Boiler Flue discharging into the Conservatory space - the Conservatory / Window Company should have known that was a serious Gas Safety problem - but in those publicised / photographed cases they obviously did not.

Obviously the Safety of the people living in the property where the Velux window has been fitted is paramount BUT it should NOT mean that Member Debra Beagle / the OP should have to either pay to move her Boiler or have expensive alterations [if possible] carried out on the Boiler Flue.

Although this is a very awkward situation I feel that the Neighbour should either remove / move the Velux window or be prepared to pay the OP for any works agreed regarding either moving the Boiler of altering the Flue.

I know that getting either of those `Fixes` agreed to is very unlikely but I would agree with other Members that the last thing the OP should do is have to go to Court about this because the main `winners` would be the Lawyers regarding the possible costs of legal action.

Chris

 

[Rob Foster]

This is a massive subject and I really feel for the op, and we all
on UKPF have given plenty of really well informed advice. We
really do not know the answer .
Hopefully the OP will lets us know how it all ends up.
centralheatking...its been one of the most challenging posts
in my memory on UKPF ...chking

 

[Murdoch]

OP ........... please take the time to view this:

Party walls and building work

It may not hold the answers you want but given the description of the works you have given there should have been an agreement in place ..... and this would have been at your neighbours cost - not yours.

 

[Debra Beagle]

Call GAS SAFE

Have called gas safe on 3 occasions and also have had our gas fitter raise the concern with them and they have told us each time ‘it is not in our remit’............I wonder if the circumstances were different, and the boiler had been fitted after the window, they would make the effort to come out?....just a thought. Again thank you for all comments it has been very interesting on everyone’s thoughts. If we find a solution I will post to let you know.

 

[Riley]

I just do not see how it’s not in their remit. Perhaps ask them to explain why as it is fundamentally a gas safety issue. Welcome to the world of a gas engineer

 

[kasser]

After reading all the posts here, the solution seems quite straightforward.
First, the flue and boiler were installed according to regs.
Window pops up too close to flue. You have Gas Safe saying ‘whichever was there first has the right to be there’.
So it's clear the window has to go and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the boiler and flue. What the builder says is irrelevant, he's not qualified in this respect.
If the neighbour doesn't want to take action, that's not your problem - you already went to a lot of trouble to highlight the issue, their issue to them. They're the ones who'd be sleeping in a room potentially full of CO. I'm amazed they're not concerned at all.

All you need to do now as someone mentioned here is cover your back. Have documentary evidence that you contacted the relevant authorities and the neighbours and that your boiler was fitted before the window, after that the ball is no longer in your court. If the Rubbish hits the fan, you have done absolutely nothing wrong and have the evidence to show that you drew attention to this issue to multiple parties and were ignored.

 

[Jerry]

6 pages of solid advice and hardly any snarky comments.

What is the world coming too?

 

[CHRISX]

Hello again Debra,

Please excuse me for not asking this question before I wrote my previous message to You:

I know that I wrote a `reassuring message` above addressed to Member scott_d and yourself - but having looked again at the photo that you attached on your original message can You please tell us what area of your property is below the Boiler Flue at ground level ?

Have You got a section of `garden area` there - if so how far does it extend away from the wall to the property boundary ?

After viewing the photo again today I am wondering whether your neighbours property is directly below the Flue at ground level because otherwise it would seem that their house extends to the wall of your home ?

Are the white structures that we see at the bottom of the photo part of a Conservatory on the neighbours property ?

IF the wall of your house is on the `Boundary` then it would mean that your Boiler Flue should NOT be discharging out of that wall because it would be discharging over the neighbours property - irrespective of the height of the Flue or whether there is a neighbouring wall or window adjacent / opposite it.

And that would put a totally different Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal rights perspective on the matter of the Flue and the Velux window.

If your Boiler Flue is discharging over the neighbours property line the installation would be incorrect and the neighbour would have a Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal right to state that it should be moved even without the problem with the Velux window / possible Flue gasses being blown into the window.

As I wrote above I apologise for not asking about this before I posted my previous message.

Chris

 

[Debra Beagle]

Hello again Debra,

Please excuse me for not asking this question before I wrote my previous message to You:

I know that I wrote a `reassuring message` above addressed to Member scott_d and yourself - but having looked again at the photo that you attached on your original message can You please tell us what area of your property is below the Boiler Flue at ground level ?

Have You got a section of `garden area` there - if so how far does it extend away from the wall to the property boundary ?

After viewing the photo again today I am wondering whether your neighbours property is directly below the Flue at ground level because otherwise it would seem that their house extends to the wall of your home ?

Are the white structures that we see at the bottom of the photo part of a Conservatory on the neighbours property ?

IF the wall of your house is on the `Boundary` then it would mean that your Boiler Flue should NOT be discharging out of that wall because it would be discharging over the neighbours property - irrespective of the height of the Flue or whether there is a neighbouring wall or window adjacent / opposite it.

And that would put a totally different Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal rights perspective on the matter of the Flue and the Velux window.

If your Boiler Flue is discharging over the neighbours property line the installation would be incorrect and the neighbour would have a Gas Regulations / Building Regulations / Legal right to state that it should be moved even without the problem with the Velux window / possible Flue gasses being blown into the window.

As I wrote above I apologise for not asking about this before I posted my previous message.

Chris

Chris that is our property below.The flue, (as stated previously post 21 and 22) ,extends over our land and, according to regulations is fitted the correct distance away from the boundary line. The flue runs parallel to the boundary line and measures over 300 mm away from it.
I have checked and rechecked measurements, instructions, and diagrams to reassure myself that we are not breaching any regulations.

 

[CHRISX]

Chris that is our property below.The flue, (as stated previously post 21 and 22) ,extends over our land and, according to regulations is fitted the correct distance away from the boundary line. The flue runs parallel to the boundary line and measures over 300 mm away from it.
I have checked and rechecked measurements, instructions, and diagrams to reassure myself that we are not breaching any regulations.

Hello again Debra,

I was asking the questions to try and visualise the situation regarding where the Boundary between your property / land and your neighbours property / land is.

I am trying to understand the photo regarding the fact that it seems the neighbours Velux window is fitted into a roof section that would seem to have to be above your garden / land ?

Any possibility of seeing a ground level photo of the area under the Boiler Flue position ?

You probably already know that in Law a property boundary extends upwards to infinity regarding anything encroaching across it at any height.

I hope that You stating: `(as stated previously post 21 and 22)` is not any kind of a rebuke regarding that because you wrote that the Boiler Flue does not discharge over the Boundary I should not be questioning you about the layout of your garden / boundary.

You state that you have checked and rechecked the measurements, instructions etc. - can you please let us know what Boiler you have ?

Just so we can see the Manufacturers specifying that their Condensing Boiler`s Flue Terminal can be located only 300mm from a property boundary - although You describe it as `parallel to the boundary` it is still a ridiculously small measurement for a Boiler Flue that exudes a `Plume` of slightly acidic water vapour with the Flue Gasses.

I ask this because the `norm` minimum distance to opposite a property boundary for a Fanned Flue Boiler Flue Terminal is 600mm and in MY opinion that is nowhere near far enough for practical / safety / no nuisance purposes regarding the `Plume` from a Condensing Boiler Flue not being discharged over a neighbouring property.

To try and ensure that one avoids causing a nuisance with Condensing Boilers Flue Plumes it is recommended that the opposite a boundary distance is increased to 2 metres - although not in every location adhering to that measurement is much less likely to cause the Flue Gasses Plume to be blown over a neighbouring boundary.

When the Plume from a Condensing Boiler Flue can be blown by the wind either over a boundary or onto a Building / Car etc. the `slightly acidic` nature of the water vapour element can cause staining of Brickwork and other surfaces / degradation of paintwork / other surfaces / damage to Vehicle paintwork / staining or damage to washing items hanging on lines and of course people do not want the Plume blowing over / onto their property`s.

Plus obviously the `Products of Combustion` must NOT ever be able to be blown into a Door, Window or any other opening into a Building.

You are corresponding with Experts on the Gas Safety Regulations on this thread - Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineers / Gas Installers - who are within a group of the ONLY `Registered / Legally Competent Persons` allowed to work on Gas in the UK - so when questions about the layout of your property / your property boundary - which Gas Boiler you have etc. are asked the answers to those questions are completely relevant for Us to formulate correct responses to your original enquiry.

You `reminding me` that you stated the Boiler Flue is not discharging over the neighbours property in `posts 21 ansd 22` should not mean that you should then not answer my questions about the photo / the exact situation re. the property boundary.

I asked the questions hoping that the answers would mean that I did NOT have to change my advice contained in my previous message to You but I wanted to understand the exact situation about the neighbours property boundary so that I could verify that what I wrote was correct.

Chris

 

[Murdoch]

^^ agree 110%

some more pictures would be very useful

 

[Debra Beagle]

 

[Riley]

It’s such a difficult one as parallel or opposite you’d say it could be too close in terms of nuisance plume going over the boundary. Admittedly it’s at high-level so the whole nuisance debate would be deemed a very grey area. It will be down to that horrible Gas Safe scenario where they won’t make a call and it’s down to the gas engineer on site Some will deem it too close to the Boundry others went

 

[CHRISX]

View attachment 38433 View attachment 38434

Hello Debra,

Thanks for posting the additional photos although I would still have liked to see the area directly below the Boiler Flue at ground level - your garden / paved area or other ?

I hope that You will not be irritated by these further questions:

When you mentioned `the extension` in a previous message did you mean a Loft Conversion ?

I am asking that because I am fairly sure that a Neighbour could not have an extension built that was connected to your home re. the Brickwork and Roof.

Who owns the Conservatory that I think I can see the Roof of in a photo - it seems from the photo to be very close to your Home`s wall ?

I am asking because I still cannot visualise how your property stands regarding the boundary with your neighbours ?

Is it possible to go out onto your garden / property and stand on your land directly underneath the Boiler Flue ?

As I mentioned above - please don`t be offended or irritated by these questions - I am not just `being nosey` - the answers would enable me to visualise the situation regarding the layout of the properties / boundary.

Chris

 

[Debra Beagle]

 

[Debra Beagle]

I don’t think you’re nosey at all Chris, here is another photo the property with the conservatory is ours and the building protruding outwards behind the tree branch is the neighbours extension. Sorry, I know it can be confusing.

 

[Murdoch]

Debra ......... you haven't commented about my suggestions about a Party Wall Agreement .......... so I'm assuming you didn't have one, yet you should have ...................

 

[CHRISX]

It’s such a difficult one as parallel or opposite you’d say it could be too close in terms of nuisance plume going over the boundary. Admittedly it’s at high-level so the whole nuisance debate would be deemed a very grey area. It will be down to that horrible Gas Safe scenario where they won’t make a call and it’s down to the gas engineer on site Some will deem it too close to the Boundry others went

Hello Riley,

When I was describing the possible `nuisance factor` of the Plumes from Condensing Boilers in that message to Member Debra I was not particularly alluding to Her Boiler Flue.

I was just trying to explain that even with Manufacturers Instructions / their specified `Minimum Clearances` measurements a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume can often still NOT adhere to the Gas Safety / Building Regulations if it will then be blowing over a neighbours property boundary.

It would not be appropriate for any of Us to install a Condensing Boiler just because the `minimum clearance` measurement had been adhered to but knowing that there was then going to be a `nuisance` caused by the Flue Plume going over the property boundary.

Any property owner has the Legal right to object to / legally challenge a situation where a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume blows over their boundary and have the `nuisance plume` removed / diverted away from their boundary / property.

As I mentioned in a previous message the recommendation is to keep a Condensing Boiler Flue Terminal at least 2 metres away from opposite a property boundary / property wall sited on a boundary because of the nuisance possibly caused by the slightly acidic water vapour `Plume` - although not in all cases [ site survey first] that measurement should prevent a `Plume nuisance` from occurring.

In a situation where the property boundary is a Brick wall or other structure which is adjacent the Boiler Flue 300mm to `adjacent a boundary` is absolutely ridiculous as any wind at all will blow the Flue Plume over the boundary / onto the Building where a wall is on the boundary.

Staining / `Damage` can be caused to Buildings , Vehicles etc. in situations such as that as I described in a previous message to Member Debra.

My recent `further questions` were to try and ascertain whether there was a problem with Member Debra`s Boiler Flue discharging over a boundary because if it is then that alone would make the installation incorrect - without the possible problem regarding the Velux window.

Taking a hypothetical scenario regarding the Gas Safety Regulations / Building Regulations and Property Law - if a Boiler Flue is discharging over a property boundary but is 30 metres above ground level - irrespective of how high up from the ground or how far removed from other structures it is that is not allowed if following the Regulations / Property Law.

As You probably know in Law a property boundary goes up all the way to `Space` however it would probably not be challenged unless a Building was erected adjacent to the boundary making it obvious that the Flue / Plume was not adhering to the Regulations / associated Property Law.

Chris

 

[Riley]

Hello Riley,

When I was describing the possible `nuisance factor` of the Plumes from Condensing Boilers in that message to Member Debra I was not particularly alluding to Her Boiler Flue.

I was just trying to explain that even with Manufacturers Instructions / their specified `Minimum Clearances` measurements a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume can often still NOT adhere to the Gas Safety / Building Regulations if it will then be blowing over a neighbours property boundary.

It would not be appropriate for any of Us to install a Condensing Boiler just because the `minimum clearance` measurement had been adhered to but knowing that there was then going to be a `nuisance` caused by the Flue Plume going over the property boundary.

Any property owner has the Legal right to object to / legally challenge a situation where a Condensing Boiler Flue Plume blows over their boundary and have the `nuisance plume` removed / diverted away from their boundary / property.

As I mentioned in a previous message the recommendation is to keep a Condensing Boiler Flue Terminal at least 2 metres away from opposite a property boundary / property wall sited on a boundary because of the nuisance possibly caused by the slightly acidic water vapour `Plume` - although not in all cases [ site survey first] that measurement should prevent a `Plume nuisance` from occurring.

In a situation where the property boundary is a Brick wall or other structure which is adjacent the Boiler Flue 300mm to `adjacent a boundary` is absolutely ridiculous as any wind at all will blow the Flue Plume over the boundary / onto the Building where a wall is on the boundary.

Staining / `Damage` can be caused to Buildings , Vehicles etc. in situations such as that as I described in a previous message to Member Debra.

My recent `further questions` were to try and ascertain whether there was a problem with Member Debra`s Boiler Flue discharging over a boundary because if it is then that alone would make the installation incorrect - without the possible problem regarding the Velux window.

Taking a hypothetical scenario regarding the Gas Safety Regulations / Building Regulations and Property Law - if a Boiler Flue is discharging over a property boundary but is 30 metres above ground level - irrespective of how high up from the ground or how far removed from other structures it is that is not allowed if following the Regulations / Property Law.

As You probably know in Law a property boundary goes up all the way to `Space` however it would probably not be challenged unless a Building was erected adjacent to the boundary making it obvious that the Flue / Plume was not adhering to the Regulations / associated Property Law.

Chris

I think we agree mate I was just exacerbating the grey area of nuisance plume

 

[Debra Beagle]

Debra ... you haven't commented about my suggestions about a Party Wall Agreement . so I'm assuming you didn't have one, yet you should have ....

I replied in post 40. There wasn’t a party wall agreement. Sorry for my ignorance but what difference would this have made? Please don’t take offence at this question. I am asking out of curiosity.

 

[Rob Foster]

View attachment 38433 View attachment 38434

The vent bricks adjacent to the boiler fan flue look a bit worrying.centralheatking

 

[Riley]

Looks more than 300mm

 

[Murdoch]

I replied in post 40. There wasn’t a party wall agreement. Sorry for my ignorance but what difference would this have made? Please don’t take offence at this question. I am asking out of curiosity.

in your case I would have hoped that your surveyor might have picked up the issue from the plans and highlighted it accordingly. Your neighbour would have had to foot the bill for the surveyors...

 

[CHRISX]

I don’t think you’re nosey at all Chris, here is another photo the property with the conservatory is ours and the building protruding outwards behind the tree branch is the neighbours extension. Sorry, I know it can be confusing.

Thank You for your reply and the additional photo Debra,

All is now clear regarding the orientation of your property and the neighbours extension.

As I am sure that You are aware the reason why there are `minimum clearances` to a Property Boundary is in case someone erects a Building / Structure close to the boundary - as has been done with your Neighbour`s extension.

In theory adhering to the minimum distance to the boundary when there is no Building / Structure present ensures that a property owner is protected in the event that the neighbour does build something adjacent to the boundary.

In your case because of the design / dimensions of the Neighbour`s extension immediately adjacent to your Boiler Flue there is a slight possibility that Flue gasses / Flue Plume could be blown enter the Extension Roof space / Loft Room via the open Velux window.

There is also the possibility that the slightly acidic water vapour from the Flue Plume could stain the extension Brickwork / guttering facia board or Roof tiles.

The possible staining of parts of the extension is something that would not really have been taken into consideration because any structure immediately adjacent to a Condensing Boiler Flue could get stained by the Plume - but it may cause a complaint in future if it can be seen by your Neighbour ?

The Architect / Designer / Builder of your Neighbour`s extension have not taken into consideration the proximity / existence of your Home`s Boiler Flue when designing the extension regarding the Velux window location.

My advice would be to try again to get a visit from one of your Local Authority Building Control Officers - if you cannot get them involved write to Gas Safe asking for an Inspector to visit your property - if they decline stating that the situation is `not within their remit` contact the HSE and report the fact that neither the LABC or Gas Safe will inspect the situation.

Tell them you have had conflicting opinions from a few Gas Safe registered Gas Engineers / Gas Installers and you cannot afford to keep paying Engineers who you find will not commit their findings in writing which is why you wanted to involve a Gas Safe Inspector.

However now that it seems you simply cannot get a definitive answer in writing you are worried about the Gas Safety aspect of the possibility that under certain wind conditions `Products of Combustion` would be able to enter the Loft Room Velux window.

Unfortunately I am guessing that the HSE would probably refer you back to engaging a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer / Gas Installer - but it is worth a couple of phone calls / a few Emails.

The problem with that is that an Engineer`s visit obviously costs money and even if you had the imaginary facility to have 3 or 4 Engineers visit free of charge they might NOT all agree a definitive answer.

Even with very experienced / very knowledgeable Engineers `human nature` / `self preservation` dictates that some might prefer to state that the proximity of the Flue terminal to the Velux window is definitely a Safety issue to cover themselves in case of a future problem.

Sorry that I / We cannot be more helpful.

If You do get a written definitive answer please let Us know with an update on here.

Chris

 

[CHRISX]

Looks more than 300mm

Hello again Riley,

Now that I have seen the last photo I am guessing that the 300mm measurement is from the edge of the Boiler Flue terminal to the middle of the Party wall between the Houses ?

The extension would have to be built so that the guttering did not encroach past the middle of the Party wall or it would have been over Member Debra`s boundary line.

Chris

 

[Riley]

SORRY mate that one was in response to robs message about the air bricks above which would need 300mm. I should have quoted him

 

[CHRISX]

SORRY mate that one was in response to robs message about the air bricks above which would need 300mm. I should have quoted him

Hello again Riley,

No need to apologise - my mistake.

I did not see Member Rob Foster`s message.

I was just about to apologise to You when I saw your message.

Chris