Thankyou Chris and all other members for your comments. I will definitely take your suggestion into consideration Chris
- Thread starter Debra Beagle
- Start date
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
Hi, had a conversation with private building inspector today. He has told me that he sees no problem with the window in position to the flue and is going to pass the extension off. Again he stated that the diagram from the planning portal didn’t relate because it was a vertical flue and not horizontal like ours, again I defined the word flue. He, for some reason again, pointed out that the flue is closer to our window than the neighbouring velux and then it didn’t really relate to any regulations because the flue is on our side of the party wall. Surely at the if the gases are emitted within the shaded area of the diagram in post 11 it wouldn’t really matter what the flue was attached to the emissions are still being released within this forbidden area.
He basically said that we were only bothered because he knows that in the future there won’t be a gas fitter willing to site a boiler in the same place. He’s probably right but why would that be........is it because the distance between flue and window is a concern? Fortunately our boiler is serviced regularly and could potentially be ok for another 10 years.......so is he saying that it is not a problem now and we can overlook any dangers and keep our fingers crossed until we move our boiler in 10 years time hoping that no accidents occur.
Was also told that no point in contacting gas safe because they’re not interested cos they don’t think it’s important!
Asked him to put in writing to us that we had made him aware of our concerns that he considered it safe but said he would not as his concern was the safe structure of the build only.
He said to that contacting theHSE and CIC would be a waste of time because they won’t be interested. I am totally astounded with the situation.
He basically said that we were only bothered because he knows that in the future there won’t be a gas fitter willing to site a boiler in the same place. He’s probably right but why would that be........is it because the distance between flue and window is a concern? Fortunately our boiler is serviced regularly and could potentially be ok for another 10 years.......so is he saying that it is not a problem now and we can overlook any dangers and keep our fingers crossed until we move our boiler in 10 years time hoping that no accidents occur.
Was also told that no point in contacting gas safe because they’re not interested cos they don’t think it’s important!
Asked him to put in writing to us that we had made him aware of our concerns that he considered it safe but said he would not as his concern was the safe structure of the build only.
He said to that contacting theHSE and CIC would be a waste of time because they won’t be interested. I am totally astounded with the situation.
Sadly a building inspector is unlikely to know the finer points of gas safety. I would call his bluff and contact the HSE if they aren’t bothered then I would insist on something in writing to that affect and go about your normal life. He clearly doesn’t understand gas safety as a vertical flue positioned correctly would nullify all of these issues and allow you to put anew boiler there when the time comes
We did some leak dispersion modeling / tests where vapors were released to atmosphere and we were quite surprised at how much the released vapors were diluted (with moisture) when emitted to fresh air. I know this doesn't help your situation. But thought I would comment
I m totally flummoxed with the idea that I will,in the future, potentially have to move my boiler because it will be seen as incorrect and a potential danger due to the siting of this window but up until that time ( while surely it is still a potential danger) nobody gives a damn.
You wouldn't have to move your boiler just a replacement with a vertical flue would be fine. It would be interesting to measure surrounding atmosphere to enable the facts to be established
A
Aire
He won't put it writing because he knows he's not qualified to answer the question. And your window been closer to the flue is irrelevant as it's a different scenario to the velux. I still believe you should send the photos to ideal. If they say it's fine, it's fine, if they say it's wrong it's wrong and then you will at least have something in writing to get gas safe to take notice.
Hi, just a question to you all, “how many of you would fit a new boiler in the same place if the scenario stays the same......like for like, without any fancy extensions? Just curiosity, yes or no will be adequate thank you.
- May 23, 2015
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- Heating Engineer (Has GSR)
A warning, don't work on the basis that whatever was there first has the right to remain there. That is rarely upheld if a case goes to Court. The is a lot of case law in this area particularly with respect to buried pipes and cables that are frustrating new development.
My advice, is you have an easy fix to relocate the flue terminal do so.
You should also be mindful, that you have demonstrated that you knew or thought that this was a problem. If anything unfortunate happens, the question could be asked as to why you did not amend your terminal position.
My advice, is you have an easy fix to relocate the flue terminal do so.
You should also be mindful, that you have demonstrated that you knew or thought that this was a problem. If anything unfortunate happens, the question could be asked as to why you did not amend your terminal position.
Don’t worry I’m not planning on replacing the boiler as it’s working fine. It’s staying where it is and how it is at the moment
I think what he was saying was as you are aware there is a potential problem it’s probably not going to be in your best interest to ignore it. I realise at present you aren’t it’s one of those that if the worst happened and you ended up in court I genuinely couldn’t tell you which way it would go. There have been well covered events where a sealed window has been exchanged for an opening one and people have died of carbon monoxide poisoning and the powers that be have still come back on the installer for not predicting the future.
Update so far;
Sent an email to the private building inspector to basically have some hard evidence that I have informed him of our concerns regarding proximity of window to flue. Also to confirm that I was right in believing that he was going to pass the extension off without any concerns that there was any breach of regulations, being either health and safety or building, and no danger to life...........he passed the query onto the top dog.
In the meantime Ideal have replied by email,to the photos sent, to comment that from the pictures the window appears to have been fitted to close to the flue....... email forwarded to BI.
It’ll be interesting to see if building inspector communicates in any way shape or form with gas safe......
Sent an email to the private building inspector to basically have some hard evidence that I have informed him of our concerns regarding proximity of window to flue. Also to confirm that I was right in believing that he was going to pass the extension off without any concerns that there was any breach of regulations, being either health and safety or building, and no danger to life...........he passed the query onto the top dog.
In the meantime Ideal have replied by email,to the photos sent, to comment that from the pictures the window appears to have been fitted to close to the flue....... email forwarded to BI.
It’ll be interesting to see if building inspector communicates in any way shape or form with gas safe......
A
Aire
Thanks for the update, will be interesting to now see what the building inspector comes back with.
The problem is solvable with a vertical flue but it comes down to who pays.
The problem is solvable with a vertical flue but it comes down to who pays.
Hi, we’ve nearly got an answer to this problem and will update as soon as verified, however just a question for you all.......if able to reach the flue how many of you would work on the boiler if the velux window was permanently fixed?
A
Aire
I always believed it to be an openable window where the minimum measurement applied
I dont think thats correct
What if someone gets the window changed to an opening window?
I think someone died beacuse of similar and a gas fitter went to prison
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A
Aire
If someone gets the window changed then it's up to whoever changes the window to seek professional advise to make sure what they are doing is safe.
But if the homeowner and window fitter are not gas safe and dont see the potential problem
A
Aire
But ignorance of the homeowner/windowfitter is not the engineers fault. Regs regarding flue positions relates to openings, a solid window with no trickle vents is not classed as an opening. Saying the homeowner may change the window to openable in the future is no different to saying the homeowner may put a conservatory there in future.
And how many conservatories do you see encroaching on flues or with opening windows too close
I was always told an opening means opening in the fabric of the building not an opening window
S
Sharp Point
Scott, what do you think an opening window is?
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That’s like saying the flue is near a plain brick wall, but in the future someone puts a door in.
S
Sharp Point
And how many people actually inform BC of intentional work?
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My take on an opening into the fabric into the building is exactly as it says.... a passage from external into internal airspace, whether that’s into habitual rooms or not.
A
Aire
Seems we are both right, to clarify I looked through part J of the building regs, it does state than an opening is referred to as, e.g. openable window, air bricks, vents etc. But it also states that no flue outlet shall be positioned within 150mm of an opening in the fabric of the building e.g a window frame. So 300mm for openable window, and 150mm for a fixed window.
A
Aire
I would say though that the 150mm rule to openings in the fabric are more down to structual factors instead of flue gasses.
Precisely WHEN was the boiler fitted? The 300mm rule has been around for around 15 years, but someone could confirm the date. If the boiler is less than, say, 10 years, the problem IS yours. Having said that, it is an offence for a builder to carry out work that makes a gas installation unsafe. They should have approached you before starting the work. I would be writing to the builder by recorded delivery, and sending a copy by email to prove that you have tried to start discussions. I would also RIDDOR the builder, but am not sure if a member of public can. Finally write to the HSE, with the pictures and diagram of clearances required. Bear in mind that this could all result in you having to move the flue, but I get the feeling that you know that. Ultimately, a compromise may be sought.
Is the house occupied - what do the tenants or owners say?
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Can’t Edit ? I now notice that you have previously mentioned neighbours
What is the boiler make and model.
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Is the house occupied - what do the tenants or owners say?
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Can’t Edit ? I now notice that you have previously mentioned neighbours
What is the boiler make and model.
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So guys, how many of you would work on the boiler if the window was screwed shut?
This is something that I received from a gentleman that works for Gas Safe.
This is something that I received from a gentleman that works for Gas Safe.
S
Sharp Point
I interpret that as altering the premises that could make THE gas appliance unsafe and not the premise.
And with all due respect Debra, I can’t helieve that you’re still consuming yourself with this, do yourself a big favour and just get a vertical flue installed..... draw a line underneath and get on with your life. Tomorrow’s another day.🙂
Chuck,
Just for your information concerning your previous deleted statement, our flue does not terminate over their boundary , our flue was fitted in accordance to gas safe regulations and approved by the boiler suppliers at the time of installation. it is the builder that has situated an opening roof window going against building regs planning portal part j.
Also the summary of regulation 8 shown above is states that it is against regulations to alter a building in which a gas installed which could compromise gas safety
Just for your information concerning your previous deleted statement, our flue does not terminate over their boundary , our flue was fitted in accordance to gas safe regulations and approved by the boiler suppliers at the time of installation. it is the builder that has situated an opening roof window going against building regs planning portal part j.
Also the summary of regulation 8 shown above is states that it is against regulations to alter a building in which a gas installed which could compromise gas safety
Just for your information, none of this is relevant to your actual problem, which is with a piece of tort law called "Land Trespass". Briefly, if your fumes from your flue cross the boundary and interfere with your neighbour's enjoyment of their property then you are at fault unless you have something called an easement permitting your activity, which is unlikely.
You've already admitted you're causing a nuisance by warning your neighbour (see your previous posts) that your fumes maybe entering their property and causing a hazard. At some point, probably when they have difficulty selling their house because of your flue, you are going to get sued. At that point you are going to really regret not spending the few hundred quid it will cost you now to have your flue modified. You may think that plumbers are expensive but that's only because you haven't seen what a barrister charges to tell you you have got no case and need to settle.
I've seen how a very similar case played out in practice. It did not end well for the person in your position, who was just as sure as you that they were in the right.
My advice is to stop getting legal advice from gas fitters and builders and find yourself a lawyer who knows about land trespass and tort.
Debora
These issues are never clear cut. In my view the risk you have hanging over your head, is if your boiler and the new window combine in a series of events that results in someone being poisoned by CO.
In those circumstances, you are at risk of of either being held liable in full, or more likely in “parasitic secondary liability”i.e. you knew about it, but did nothing to eliminate or mittigate the potential danger.
The evidence that you knew about the issue is already in the public domain.
The cost of resolving the issue with your boiler, is probably about the same as seeking the advice of a solicitor.
If you want to recover your costs, give your neighbour an ultimatum to fix the problem. If they don’t, then undertake the work, seek to recover the cost, if they don’t pay, then go to the Small Claims Court to recover your cost as a debt.
You are very lucky that you have a situation, where the solution is completely within your hands to resolve. English Court’s generally are very unpredictable in outcome (and costly) when it comes to resolving neighbourly disputes.
Life is not always fair, you have the moral high ground, don’t loose that position
These issues are never clear cut. In my view the risk you have hanging over your head, is if your boiler and the new window combine in a series of events that results in someone being poisoned by CO.
In those circumstances, you are at risk of of either being held liable in full, or more likely in “parasitic secondary liability”i.e. you knew about it, but did nothing to eliminate or mittigate the potential danger.
The evidence that you knew about the issue is already in the public domain.
The cost of resolving the issue with your boiler, is probably about the same as seeking the advice of a solicitor.
If you want to recover your costs, give your neighbour an ultimatum to fix the problem. If they don’t, then undertake the work, seek to recover the cost, if they don’t pay, then go to the Small Claims Court to recover your cost as a debt.
You are very lucky that you have a situation, where the solution is completely within your hands to resolve. English Court’s generally are very unpredictable in outcome (and costly) when it comes to resolving neighbourly disputes.
Life is not always fair, you have the moral high ground, don’t loose that position
S
Sharp Point
Debra, you’ve interpreted regulation totally wrong. It’s stating altering the premise/ building in which a gas fitting is housed, to not compromise the fittings safety.
I think your neighbour has wrongly installed a roof window after your boiler flue was in place. You have tried to work with him but failed.
The bigger picture is that I would not want to be responsible as a householder for a death of my neighbour under any curcumstances.
Thus regardless of all the above...I would change my flue, park the issue, sleep soundly, move on and maybe get rewarded in heavan
or where ever we all end up...your neighbour is irresponsible take the higher ground and YOU be responsible. centralheatking
Thats it no more input as far as I am concerned chking
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Seems a bit harsh that the OP has to shell out another 500quid cos the builder next door doesn’t know building regs (his actual job btw).
I guess if the building inspector has done his job and passed the extension, there’s no need to do anything, well, apart from shorten that flue 😉.
Hi Debra,
I have not looked at this thread for some days. It has got very convoluted, I have not seen any more posts since I posted, and frankly, cannot get up the enthusiasm to run through 10 pages.
I apologise. When I responded, I had not seen later posts to the one that I reacted to. I was using my mobile, which is always a bad idea.
When I saw the picture, I thought that the roof immediately below your flue was the neighbours, which would mean that your flue, if it was less than 15 years or so ago, was incorrectly positioned. Later posts (which were there but I had not seen), intimated that this roof is actually yours. Assuming that the clearances in force had been met, then, clearly, the installer of the Velux is at fault.
If it were me I would send a letter recorded delivery stating that you believe the new velux window is too close to the flue and as the boiler was installed first that the velux window is to be removed or they can pay the amount of £*** to have your boiler flue moved by your gas engineer.
Then go about your life as normal. When you have your boiler replaced will then go vertical.
I read somewhere on this thread about screwing a window shut? This shouldn't be done as someone can unscrew the window the window should be replaced for non opening or removed completely. There was a death in a newquay hotel and this was one of the issues, but not the only one.
Then go about your life as normal. When you have your boiler replaced will then go vertical.
I read somewhere on this thread about screwing a window shut? This shouldn't be done as someone can unscrew the window the window should be replaced for non opening or removed completely. There was a death in a newquay hotel and this was one of the issues, but not the only one.
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