Qualifcations

[Reg Man]

I was thinking of becoming a brain surgeon. No qualifications. But all ok. because if it goes wrong, the patient will know different. So why is it in the gas industry, that people think they can do work with out the qualifications and registration?

 

[chris watkins]

Cos to work on a boiler you need some basic tools & its your boiler.

Would anyone work on their own brain with some screwdrivers out of a Christmas cracker and a hammer from the shed?
:knife::ihih:

 

[Reg Man]

Your own Boiler? Tell that to Stacey Rodgers, who's son. Domonic was killed by CO from the neighbours faulty boiler.

 

[johnf]

And they were told by the bloke with the oil boiler that all boilers are fine to work on!

 

[chris watkins]

So why is it in the gas industry, that people think they can do work with out the qualifications and registration?

Because they are not in the gas industry, but more to the point some people are still prepared to let them work in their homes without checking to see if they are, this despite numerous cases like that of Stacey Rodgers son.

 

[Riley]

Always makes me laugh that they have a gas safety week it shouldn't just be pushed for a week which is where Gas Safe fails they are a moneymaking organisation and do not invest heavily enough in preventative measures or education. They penalise those that are qualified or supposedly qualified yet to us it's seems like nothing is done to prevent the DIYer or illegals

 

[chris watkins]

Is it not the job of the judiciary, prompted by government (us), to make the penalties such that it makes all those concerned think twice.

As far as can see there is no effective deterrent to stop all those involved and that includes those working illegally as well as those who keep them operating by employing them.!!

Blaming Gas Safe is a bit unfair when as we all know cases are put forward to HSE and the like and are simple not pursued, least not until someone is killed.

Just like the rest of the regulations around this industry if they are not enforced then people simple ignore them which is why we are where we are with any Tom, Dick or Harry doing it with impunity.

 

[joni os]

Penalties for homeowners who ignore or fail to check gas safe registration is the way to prevent unregistered work. Legally the framework is in place. Employers responsible for acts of employees. Fixed penalty, like use of mobile phone in car, for failure to record details.

 

[Riley]

Is it not the job of the judiciary, prompted by government (us), to make the penalties such that it makes all those concerned think twice.

As far as can see there is no effective deterrent to stop all those involved and that includes those working illegally as well as those who keep them operating by employing them.!!

Blaming Gas Safe is a bit unfair when as we all know cases are put forward to HSE and the like and are simple not pursued, least not until someone is killed.

Just like the rest of the regulations around this industry if they are not enforced then people simple ignore them which is why we are where we are with any Tom, Dick or Harry doing it with impunity.

I totally agree with you Chris, my point with Blame sitting with Gas Safe is that they are the Visual body. I just don't think they invest enougj time effort and money into promoting safe gas work. Where peoples lives are at stake I don't think you can cut corners. Gas Safe should be working with all the big suppliers and all the big merchant so every time you walk into a plumbers merchant or a Screwfix or B&Q it should be Gas Safe literature here there and everywhere and posters stating the penalty if you get caught doing illegal work. I think the fact that I get asked if I am corgi registered about 10 times a week say that Gas Safe is not doing a good enough job promoting gas safety

 

[Last Plumber]

A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

The trouble is, that would also stop the money spinning.

The competency tests and exams need toughening up too imo. There are way to many people pass with flying colours when they really are NOT competent at all.

Again, money rules.

 

[Riley]

That is exactly the point though isn't it if they really wanted to sort it out they could with a few easy measures but that won't because of the money involved

 

[Last Plumber]

Exactamundo !!!
All about cash !!

Always is.

The love of money is the route of all evil !

 

[zzzjim]

A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

The trouble is, that would also stop the money spinning.

......

Again, money rules.

I would expect a backlash - underground market - of cheap GREY imports would pop up ...and hence even worse quality.
Now what you are working on may not even be genuine ! .... Crime + Money

 

[Ray Stafford]

A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

I see this more often on social media than any other suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would save a single life. Not one. In fact, it would probably cost lives.

I have posted at length on this subject before, and won't bore regular posters with repeats, but I will add another point upon which I did not dwell in my previous refutations.

The idea that preventing the sale of (say) a gas cooker hose to a have-a-go-hero will prevent a dodgy installation is based on the entirely false premise that once refused service in B&Q or at his local merchant, joe public will suddenly see the light, promptly give up his penny-pinching ways, and immediately engage the services of a GSR engineer. Sure, some will do that. But a significant minority, denied access to the correct product for the job, will decide that a few feet of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips will do just as well. The unintended consequence of our "safety initiative" is another house explosion.

The current regime can very legitimately claim to be highly effective in terms of saving lives. The death rate from CO poisoning and/or explosion from natural gas has been steadily descending for years, and in 2011/12 we had our first ever year with zero deaths attributable to natural gas. It regrettably rose to 3 in the following year, but back in the 1990s we regularly used to bury 20 - 30 people a year. In that same year of 2011/12, solid fuel caused 9 deaths - despite the much smaller numbers of solid fuel appliances.

 

[Stanios]

Thing is for room sealed boiler to kill someone takes a bloody lot of things to go wrong, its an incredibly safe appliance.

The fact that thousands of boilers get fitted by incompetent clueless and careless cowboys yet still so few accidents happen is a testament to that.

 

[Riley]

I still think there is a lot of room for public education on the matter. Yes you will always get some clever dick that thinks they know better but I hate that Joe public have no idea who gas Safe are. With that in mind I also carry that mindset across to a lot of people doing illegal installs. There is literally no deterrent, none at all. Basically a lot of people are willing to take the economic risk of getting caught and fined but all they do is install a couple more boilers and that's it paid for. It is completely the wrong mentality and the sooner that they do away with the legislation rubbish of "competent" rather than "licensed to" The better I will feel about the situation

 

[Last Plumber]

I see this more often on social media than any other suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would save a single life. Not one. In fact, it would probably cost lives.

I have posted at length on this subject before, and won't bore regular posters with repeats, but I will add another point upon which I did not dwell in my previous refutations.

The idea that preventing the sale of (say) a gas cooker hose to a have-a-go-hero will prevent a dodgy installation is based on the entirely false premise that once refused service in B&Q or at his local merchant, joe public will suddenly see the light, promptly give up his penny-pinching ways, and immediately engage the services of a GSR engineer. Sure, some will do that. But a significant minority, denied access to the correct product for the job, will decide that a few feet of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips will do just as well. The unintended consequence of our "safety initiative" is another house explosion.

The current regime can very legitimately claim to be highly effective in terms of saving lives. The death rate from CO poisoning and/or explosion from natural gas has been steadily descending for years, and in 2011/12 we had our first ever year with zero deaths attributable to natural gas. It regrettably rose to 3 in the following year, but back in the 1990s we regularly used to bury 20 - 30 people a year. In that same year of 2011/12, solid fuel caused 9 deaths - despite the much smaller numbers of solid fuel appliances.

I can only speak for myself here Ray.

I personally would not sell, for example, a Multifunctional gas valve, to some DIY obsessed penny pinching individual.

This is because I think it would be irresponsible and morally wrong, to do so, knowing that the DIY obsessed penny pinching individual could easily cause damage to life or property.


That is however, something I see various merchants do on a regular basis.

Whatever your view on preventative ideas or suggestions, you must see where I am coming from ?

If you do sell to such people in such, do you not feel that you are condoning their actions?

 

[Riley]

I do agree with last plumber relating to replacement parts however I don't think you can stop somebody buying a boiler or a fire or a hob otherwise all of a sudden we get accused of cronyism and price-fixing I have said in the past and Ray has said in the past with appliances use your gas safe card with a chip and pin as you do to pay a bill only somebody with a gas safe card can commission and turn on an appliance it's so simple but none of the manufacturers will do it because it cost too much money

 

[Last Plumber]

I do agree with last plumber relating to replacement parts however I don't think you can stop somebody buying a boiler or a fire or a hob otherwise all of a sudden we get accused of cronyism and price-fixing I have said in the past and Ray has said in the past with appliances use your gas safe card with a chip and pin as you do to pay a bill only somebody with a gas safe card can commission and turn on an appliance it's so simple but none of the manufacturers will do it because it cost too much money

I have said similar myself. If every boiler had a lock off that could only be reset with a gas safe card, You'd have cracked it.

The thing is, money rules the game and it will always be the same.

I also agree with the other point Riley made re-economic risk.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I personally would not sell, for example, a Multifunctional gas valve, to some DIY obsessed penny pinching individual.

Neither would I.

But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

Thats right - nearly three quarters.

But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?

 

[Last Plumber]

Neither would I.

But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

Thats right - nearly three quarters.

But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?

I agree with a lot of what you say.

A lot of those sales/customers you mention, are and have legitimate reasons for buying. For example, If you sell a thousand boilers to a building firm for a housing estate, fine, someone has to do that and I have no problem with it.

My Ban Plan Ray, is more concerned with the sales of boiler parts that goes on over the counter to people who are obviously going to go away and fix their own or other peoples boilers.

I realise that this ban is nigh on impossible and will never be attempted.

You must understand why there is frustration felt by legitimate GSR engineers who see Non registered people buying and installing parts.

The suggestions made by myself and others are born of that frustration.

 

[bright spark]

That's a fair point from Ray regarding boiler sales.
I also agree with proof of GSR for sale of spares.
I've been asked about 2 or 3 times for my card from suppliers when buying spares.

Maybe another way to improve safety is for the customer to have to provide a cert to energy supplier yearly to prove that their appliance has been serviced by a qualified person.
No cert and gas is turned off.
This could work in domestic and commercial situations.
So no proof of service and your gas is turned off.
That'd get rid of non registered cowboys in the service end. Having to supply your GSR details (RGII in Ireland) would put the skids on the repair end alot

 

[SimonG]

This topic is always a good read.

Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.

 

[Last Plumber]

This topic is always a good read.

Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.

It's never going to have a solution that suits everyone involved is it?

The subject/Trade is massive

 

[SimonG]

It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.

 

[Last Plumber]

It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.

True.
There will always be numpties !
They will always DIY

 

[Ray Stafford]

oil by oil people etc.

Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.

 

[johnf]

The trouble is there is more of a DIY approach when LPG is concerned in the leisure industry. Camping and Gas BBQ's are all bits worked on by DIYers and it can sometimes prove fatal. Oil on the other hand, apart from the odd workshop heater most appliances are fixed with permanent flues.

 

[bright spark]

The sensible head would think LPG don't touch it with a barge pole. But people will never let ye down in the stupidity department

 

[Last Plumber]

Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.

Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?

I don't have the official stats, but a quick google search suggests its now a similar order of magnitude to CO deaths attributable to natural gas, although it was a lot more in the 60s and 70s. I suspect that electrocution may be secondary to fire as a cause of death attributable to electrical faults.

However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

...LADDER!

 

[Ray Stafford]

and won't bore regular posters with repeats,

Ok. So I lied. Here's what I wrote last time.

I have been thinking about this issue, and have discussed it endlessly over nearly 30 years.

There are three basic factors here:

Enforceability
Equivalences
Proportionality

Enforceability is a problem for several reasons. The biggest one are that the majority of the sales of gas appliances are not to registered installers, but are still perfectly legitimate. They are either sales down the supply chain (ie, Manufacturer > Distributor > Merchant) or sales to organisations who quite reasonably want to purchase the materials, despite having no intention of fitting them illegally. A large proportion of our sales are to Councils, HAs, Universities, MOD establishments and a whole range of other public and private non-GSR organisations. There is also the issue of whether a particular item is a "gas product" or not. Lots of things are dual purpose.

Equivalence presents another issue. If we seek such protection for the sale of items related to our industry, we must expect other industries to make similar arguments for equally draconian regulation. So sorry, you can't wire your own plug, maintain your own car, mend your own roof, or even use your own sex-toys! Poorly maintained cars kill FAR more people than poorly maintained gas appliances, and more people are hurt doing DIY up ladders on their own house than are affected by CO poisoning. Hospital A&E departments regularly have to remove objects from orifices in which they have no place being, and this would never happen if they were only sold to competent sex-workers.

Finally, we have proportionality. Starting from the point that "its a free country", as a society we accept a range of limits on our freedom for the collective good. We accept quite stringent limits on things like the practice of medicine, ownership of firearms or explosives because of the high likelihood of frequent unpleasant consequences if we don't. Moving down the chain of potential risk, we regulate bus and truck drivers more than car drivers because the consequences of their failures are greater.

At the bottom of the regulatory pyramid are the activities that merely require you to be a certain age, and consenting - like drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex or joining the armed forces. They key to this is proportionality - the degree of regulation is proportionate to the frequency and severity of the harm that would ensue in the absence of regulation. Increasing the level of regulation on the gas appliance market would simply be disproportionate - the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

And before someone comes out with the old argument "surely its worth it, if just a single life is saved...?" Nope. On that basis we would have a speed limit on all roads of 20mph which would pretty much eliminate road deaths. But the cost is unacceptably high.

So, much as I understand the sentiment, I absolutely don't support legal limits on the sale of gas appliances. Or electrical fittings. Or car parts. Or ladders.

Or sex toys.



I should add that we don't sell anything to DIYers. However, assuming a customer is a genuine tradesman, we also don't try to act as the industry busybody or policeman. Having said that, all our branch managers have a standing instruction to refuse to sell ANY product if they are doubtful about safety, and they will always have my backing if they choose to exercise that discretion.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

...LADDER!

Licenses for ladders then!!!!

 

[Last Plumber]

Outright ban on ladders to anyone except Fire service ????

 

[johnf]

I would be happy with that. Hate the things. I wouldn't have to get on roofs anymore except by if there is a scaffold