RED365 Compact 18 Wood Pellet Boiler ISSUES - MCZ / RED365

[Gray0689]

Is it going direct in to heating or you using a buffer or thermal store

 

[Gray0689]

In fact could you post a couple of pictures up of boiler installation

 

[Robsmith88]

Is it going direct in to heating or you using a buffer or thermal store

Hi, will try and get a few pics up.

It is running to a twin coil thermal store in our airing cupboard. Both could currently connected to the boiler, got it just in case we go solar thermal (but that's another story).

 

[Worcester]

Hi, will try and get a few pics up.

It is running to a twin coil thermal store in our airing cupboard. Both could currently connected to the boiler, got it just in case we go solar thermal (but that's another story).

How big is the thermal store? What Make? What controls the heat input to the store?

If it is properly configured then the boiler should only be heating the store, and the store then heating the rads / water.

 

[Gray0689]

Hi, will try and get a few pics up.

It is running to a twin coil thermal store in our airing cupboard. Both could currently connected to the boiler, got it just in case we go solar thermal (but that's another story).

What litre is the thermal store
You should have had it piped up to solar coil to get best performance till you get solar fitted at least
Is there a load valve at boiler?

 

[Robsmith88]

What litre is the thermal store
You should have had it piped up to solar coil to get best performance till you get solar fitted at least
Is there a load valve at boiler?

It says it's a 277 litre tank. I'll try and upload some photos now...

Its ta controlled by an 'iflo' thermostat and a programmer in the house that has 2 controls, one for hot water timing and the other for heating...

 

[Gray0689]

These boilers work best in to a buffer or at least into a thermal store
From what I can see I think it's direct in to heating won't be efficient at all the load valve isa standard tmv not designed for this use

This obviously is not the problem with the electrical problems but I'd also say it's not set up correctly

 

[Pipes Plumbing]

Agree with the above...
The way this is set up could be causing some of the problems with igniters as well as dropping efficiency through the floor, as the boiler will be cycling on / off more often than it should be.
I would personally go with a minimum of 35 litres of accumulator tank per kw (as a rule of thumb) on a modulating pellet boiler, to allow you to run high efficiencies and low cycle frequency - 50l/kw on non modulating boilers
I would change that TMV acting as the load unit pretty sharpish too, that will not be doing your boiler or system any good at all

 

[Worcester]

Agree with above. Can't quite see all the pipework (bottom of photo cut off)
That tmv need changing - though they should have used an esbe for the back end protection.
As for the rest - looks like no buffer tank - you need one as recommended by everyone here for efficiency purposes.
At least they've plumbed in both coils to the DHW tank (even if the "strap a stat to me" is half way up the tank) - what make is that cylinder?

 

[Robsmith88]

Agree with above. Can't quite see all the pipework (bottom of photo cut off)
That tmv need changing - though they should have used an esbe for the back end protection.
As for the rest - looks like no buffer tank - you need one as recommended by everyone here for efficiency purposes.
At least they've plumbed in both coils to the DHW tank (even if the "strap a stat to me" is half way up the tank) - what make is that cylinder?

OK i'm getting more and more confused by the day. i have a few questions that hopefully you can help with:

1. Is a 'buffer tank' different to the thermal store? or should it be the thermal store that is used as the buffer tank?
2. is there a reason they would have taken out my small hot water cylinder and replaced it with the thermal store if it is not being used for anything other than hot water?
3. What is the problem with the TMV and what issues is this likely to cause if it is not changed?

If you can give me any answers, hopefully I can go back and have a constructive discussion with the installer.

Thanks

 

[Worcester]

What thermal store?

1)Buffer tanks and thermal stores are similar . The difference really is how they are used and the number and type of heating sources that are connected to them.

Thermal stores are normally directly connected to the (biomass) boiler and indirectly connected to the solar (coil) looks like your big green tank has two coils one for the boiler and one for solar. Additional the hot water would normall be heated via a coil or plate heat exchanger from the thermal store, so you with a thermal store it is not usual to have a store of Domestic Hot water - it is heated on demand.

from the pictures you've posted it doesn't look as if your big green tank is a thermal store, it looks like a large Domestic Hpt Water (DHW) Cylinder.

Buffer tanks are directly connected to the heating source (biomass boiler in your case) and then the heat for the Heating and DHW are drawn from the buffer tank.

2) DHW cylinders with Solar thermal input would normally have a volume dedicated to the Solar - i.e the volume associated with the bottom coild hence they will always be larger than a DHW cylinder heated only by a boiler.

Heres a thermal store configuration: :: AKVA SOLAR

3) Down to quality, and what they're designed for. Flow rate, nominal pressure, differential pressure, leak rate etc.

Much more information and we're going to have to start charging you 🙂 🙂

Ask for a copy of the hydraulic design from your installer (we always do one so that the plumbers put everything in correctly )

 

[Robsmith88]

FYI - latest update - my last contact with the installer 'New World Solar Installations' was back in April when they still denied they had wired up the boiler original boiler correctly... even though it was proven adn the same faults on the second boiler, they said they would need to arbitrate this to find who was liable for the cost of the new boiler !! disgraceful behavour !!

New World Solar went into Liquidation about 4 weeks ago so i'm left high and dry.. I'm trying to contact MCS who said that installers have to offer a 2 year installation guarantee as well as the manufacturers warranty... so i am hoping that MCS have something (insurance/an agreement with another installer) in place to cover me for the next 12 months... any thoughts on this?

Also the same 2 directors from the failed New World Solar have now set up New World Energy in Cheltenham but as a new entity they would have no obligations to their previous companies customers.. so they'll just leave a wake of bad installations behind them and jump ship...

 

[Gray0689]

Who have you been dealing with from mcz

 

[Robsmith88]

Who have you been dealing with from mcz

Nobody at at mcz directly but have emailed Specflue (uk distributors) to see what they say.

 

[Worcester]

FYI - latest update - my last contact with the installer 'New World Solar Installations' was back in April when they still denied they had wired up the boiler original boiler correctly... even though it was proven adn the same faults on the second boiler, they said they would need to arbitrate this to find who was liable for the cost of the new boiler !! disgraceful behavour !!

New World Solar went into Liquidation about 4 weeks ago so i'm left high and dry.. I'm trying to contact MCS who said that installers have to offer a 2 year installation guarantee as well as the manufacturers warranty... so i am hoping that MCS have something (insurance/an agreement with another installer) in place to cover me for the next 12 months... any thoughts on this?

Also the same 2 directors from the failed New World Solar have now set up New World Energy in Cheltenham but as a new entity they would have no obligations to their previous companies customers.. so they'll just leave a wake of bad installations behind them and jump ship...

The insurance will have been issued to you by New World Solar, you should have a copy of it in your handover pack (Big document lots of paperwork all needed to be MCS compliant and takes about 4 - 6 hours to prepare for each job...)

Have you actually received your MCS certificate for the installation yet?

Unfortunately our experience to date has been that to almost every site that we've gone to fix installation problems where the original installation company is no longer trading, we also find that they never bothered to purchase the insurance that they had to on behalf of their clients.

MCS rules are: - you must be a member of RECC, RECC rules are you MUST issue a deposit and warranty insurance.

You need to find your policy document, then we (or someone else equally close can help) else in the politest possible way, you've been shafted and there is nothing you can do.

MCS wont help nor will RECC, they'll both just bounce you back to your insurance document.

Unfortunately the new company will be nothing to do with the old company (it certainly wont have purchased the liabilities and probably purchased the assets at a knock down price) So once again neither MCS nor RECC will help.

 

[Worcester]

Who have you been dealing with from mcz

I believe he's talking about the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) not MCZ at that point, though I may be wrong...

However you are correct in that he may be able to get some help from MCZ's importers / distributors in the UK to save face on a without prejudics basis.

 

[Worcester]

Might be worth challenging them face to face as he and Colin Michael Strong are / were both directors at Alvechurch football club - time to embarrass and shame them in front of others 🙂

 

[Worcester]

RECC do not list any company under the names New World Solar, or New World Home Energy - I would contact RECC immediately to see if you can bar their future membership, which will scupper their chances of registering as an MCS company in the future - at least you will protect others from these rogues.

RECC's chief exec is Virginia Graham try [email protected] or else [email protected] - better to put it in writing

New World Home Energy Ltd was formed in October 2013 so they new what troubles they had / were stacking up back then...

 

[Robsmith88]

Thanks again Worcester, very helpful as always..

Yeah I saw the new company date so they obviously did know what they were doing.. i'm just glad I forced the issue of getting a new boiler in and getting it running right when I did otherwise I could now be without a boiler at all and completely shafted !

I'll have a look for the policy docs and take any other steps from there 🙂

thanks