Water Pump Issue

[egizz983]

Hello i have recently installed a water pump in my house and have an issue some very strange noise you can hear in the video Below from 1:20 minute .
This happens randombly actually not sure what causes but as example you can run the shower in a first minute is nothing and after some time this strange sound starts when you switch off pump it goes off ,and the noise is not pump from the pump itself. also often happens if you run water and then close pump switches off and then this noise kicks in . its seems to be coming from the pipes or somewhere in the bathroom floors starts vibrating . Below i will show how pump is connected and video its self . If anyone can help me to identify what is causing this noise . Pump is new and working as it should both on cold and hot water .

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Need a new toilet float / inlet valve

also you got a picture of how you have connected the pump ?

 

[egizz983]

Need a new toilet float / inlet valve

also you got a picture of how you have connected the pump ?

is exactly the way i the picture i posted here . no bended pipes or anything like that .
i split hot water pipe thats comes out of cylinder and just run though that pipe hot in , hot out and same with the cold water

 

[egizz983]

but if thats a toilet issue i can solve that just wasnt sure as noise was seem to come from unknown location as very loud and hard to understand

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thought so you can’t do it like that as you’ve altered the vent and you need an s flange for the pump

defo toilet ball / float valve is the issue regarding the noise / vibration

 

[egizz983]

Thought so you can’t do it like that as you’ve altered the vent and you need an s flange for the pump

defo toilet ball / float valve is the issue regarding the noise / vibration

you mean the one on the top of the cylinder to prevent air to get into the pump ?

 

[exedon2]

As Shaun has said you cannot connect hot like that
Do a web search for warix flange I find that's easiest method.
Almost certainly pump fitting instructions will show something similar,.

 

[egizz983]

As Shaun has said you cannot connect hot like that
Do a web search for warix flange I find that's easiest method.
Almost certainly pump fitting instructions will show something similar,.

so on flange top one will go to the attic tang as expansion and side will go to pump right ?

 

[green grant]

is the noise (which is air BTW) only on the cold side? Can you open multiple hot taps without drop in flow (leaving space for air (which is what is happening))? or does it only happen on the cold feed? Your diagram shows hot water being pressurised from the tank but cold is from an repressurised feed.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What is a Flange and Why Do I Need One? | Salamander Pumps

This blog explains why you would need a flange in a shower pump installation and how it protects your shower pump from potential damage.

www.salamanderpumps.co.uk

 

[egizz983]

is the noise (which is air BTW) only on the cold side? Can you open multiple hot taps without drop in flow (leaving space for air (which is what is happening))? or does it only happen on the cold feed? Your diagram shows hot water being pressurised from the tank but cold is from an repressurised feed.

i believe its only on a cold . yes it is exactly how its in diagram , as i was looking other plumbers videos on youtube and thats the way everyone is connecting . its just i havent installed flange maybe thats what is causing apart from toilet as Shaun said

 

[green grant]

so the problem is as I have outlined. The cold water flow rate is insufficient to allow the simultaneous operation of the pump and another cold water outlet. This is common (think combi) so the only way to overcome this is 1. Don't flush the toilet or use other cold water outlets while using the pump 2. Fit a pressurised cold water tank to the system (the same way you have a hot water tank)

 

[egizz983]

What is a Flange and Why Do I Need One? | Salamander Pumps

This blog explains why you would need a flange in a shower pump installation and how it protects your shower pump from potential damage.

www.salamanderpumps.co.uk

yes i have googled that i will install it tomorrow when shops are open and check that toilet if thats what causing the noise

 

[green grant]

your issue is not with hot water so the flange makes no difference

 

[egizz983]

so the problem is as I have outlined. The cold water flow rate is insufficient to allow the simultaneous operation of the pump and another cold water outlet. This is common (think combi) so the only way to overcome this is 1. Don't flush the toilet or use other cold water outlets while using the pump 2. Fit a pressurised cold water tank to the system (the same way you have a hot water tank)

but there is like 1000 liters of cold water in the attic witch is filled with the mains (2-3 bars ) pump is also 3 bars so is that not enough ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

your issue is not with hot water so the flange makes no difference

will as we don’t know what he’s done with the vent connection / will be pulling air into the pump

 

[green grant]

so have you already tested the water outlet and have readings of 3 bar? what is the flow rate? You need to test static (when nothing is happening) and then when using things (real world)
The tank's outlet pressure will be governed by a different quation which will include height 🙂

 

[green grant]

will as we don’t know what he’s done with the vent connection / will be pulling air into the pump

he said cold water side only..easy enough to test that though

 

[egizz983]

will as we don’t know what he’s done with the vent connection / will be pulling air into the pump

i could just do one way valve for vent so would not be pulling air if thats the problem

 

[ShaunCorbs]

he said cold water side only..easy enough to test that though

but he’s boosting both hot and cold

so hot side need a flange else pump will wear quick due to oxygen being pulling in / could air lock

cold side ball valve isn’t rated for mains pressure will have a gravity nozzle in

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i could just do one way valve for vent so would not be pulling air if thats the problem

no no no that’s a bomb

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Op please get a pro in before you do something bad

 

[green grant]

i could just do one way valve for vent so would not be pulling air if thats the problem

so replace air with a vacuum LOL not a good idea. You don't have enough water through the cold side (you said it was cold side right!) so you create an operational work around (only use the pump in isolation) or you find a permanent solution. I hate this man but it does show what is needed

 

[egizz983]

so replace air with a vacuum LOL not a good idea. You don't have enough water through the cold side (you said it was cold side right!) so you create an operational work around (only use the pump in isolation) or you find a permanent solution. I hate this man but it does show what is needed

i was looking his video on how to install the pump 😀

 

[egizz983]

Op please get a pro in before you do something bad

in my city plumbers there is no really good plumber they might suggest to replace water cylinder 😀D

 

[green grant]

but he’s boosting both hot and cold

so hot side need a flange else pump will wear quick due to oxygen being pulling in / could air lock

cold side ball valve isn’t rated for mains pressure will have a gravity nozzle in

no no no that’s a bomb

wow, prone to the dramtic are we lol a bomb...how silly are you.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

wow, prone to the dramtic are we lol a bomb...how silly are you.

if he puts a nrv on the vent yes it’s a bomb

 

[green grant]

so replace air with a vacuum LOL not a good idea. You don't have enough water through the cold side (you said it was cold side right!) so you create an operational work around (only use the pump in isolation) or you find a permanent solution. I hate this man but it does show what is needed

if he puts a nrv on the vent yes it’s a bomb

LOL

 

[ShaunCorbs]

 

[green grant]

View attachment 47074

that's a good drawing...

 

[egizz983]

View attachment 47074

Domestic hot water . i dont have that i boost the whole system not only shower taps and toilets ect

 

[green grant]

Domestic hot water . i dont have that i boost the whole system not only shower taps and toilets ect

so ALL cold water feed comes from the tank? So no cold water pipes come off the rising main (into the tank)? If this is the case, then you don't have mains pressure from the header tank at all but you have mains pressure from the hot water tank so there is an immediate imbalance between the 2. Who told you to use that set-up?

 

[egizz983]

so ALL cold water feed comes from the tank? So no cold water pipes come off the rising main (into the tank)? If this is the case, then you don't have mains pressure from the header tank at all but you have mains pressure from the hot water tank so there is an immediate imbalance between the 2. Who told you to use that set-up?

attic tank was feeding both hot water tank and all taps and showers before i installed pump . now attic tank feed hot water tank and pump witch boost attic pressure. its exactly how in this video its just that pump not only for the shower but for all other taps

 

[green grant]

so what was the reason? water flow rates poor or water pressure poor..or both

 

[egizz983]

so what was the reason? water flow rates poor or water pressure poor..or both

new shower cabin with a jets ect and had not enough pressure but was easier and seemed to be more practical to boost whole system then just shower alone

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can you post a pic of the piping / cylinder cupboard

 

[green grant]

new shower cabin with a jets ect and had not enough pressure but was easier and seemed to be more practical to boost whole system then just shower alone

pressure and flow are not one and the same thing. You can have low pressure and high flow and low flow and high pressure. You have a flow issue right now with the cold water. An increase in pipe diam from the vented, unpressuried tank in the loft to the pump inlet would help. The pump won't be able to physically put more water through but a larger diam pipe reduced into the pump will aid both volume (flow) and add some pressure (force)

 

[egizz983]

Can you post a pic of the piping / cylinder cupboard

i will post tomorrow when i am home

 

[egizz983]

pressure and flow are not one and the same thing. You can have low pressure and high flow and low flow and high pressure. You have a flow issue right now with the cold water. An increase in pipe diam from the vented, unpressuried tank in the loft to the pump inlet would help. The pump won't be able to physically put more water through but a larger diam pipe reduced into the pump will aid both volume (flow) and add some pressure (force)

i am currently have 3/4 pipe feeding pump both cold and hot so you are saying to reduce to 1/2 to ?

 

[green grant]

I was suggesting more like 22 or 28mm into the pump. You really should be doing these as formal mathematical calculations or its just going to be a guess. Start with gathering the data so get a pressure gauge. You need to know what flow/pressure comes into the house (potential to upgrade mains in?) then pressure/flow at different points in the house (this can also give indications as to restrictions and blockages that would otherwise remain unknown) then repeat the tests with other taps/baths/dishwashers/toilets running. Static pressure and initial flow is only one small part, you need to test real world application design

 

[ShaunCorbs]

22mm is more than good enough for a domestic pump

 

[green grant]

22mm is more than good enough for a domestic pump

and 28 is better lol...size matters with you plumbers right! lol

 

[green grant]

i am currently have 3/4 pipe feeding pump both cold and hot so you are saying to reduce to 1/2 to ?

I'll bet you have never considered using a dedicated tankless water heater for the shower have you?

 

[egizz983]

you mean like electric shower ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

you mean like electric shower ?

no ignore him

 

[green grant]

you mean like electric shower ?

just google it. They are use everywhere, sold in their millions worldwide. Obviously not know or understood by "heating engineers" lol

 

[Ben-gee]

Op I would listen to Shaun, I don’t think greengrant is a plumber or to be charitable he seems to have got confused about your system.

 

[egizz983]

no ignore him

thats is my pipes and how its installed

 

[green grant]

Does the pump draw air in (makes that sound) every time it operates?

 

[Egizz9833]

Idk if its draws air but that sound is kinda random ether when running for longer time or when you close water and pump goes off then the sound kicks in

 

[egizz983]

so the issue is actually with the toilet , toilet filling valve toucing toilet tank and starts vibrating causing very loud noise . The question is if thats normal that its vibrates at all . because i will push that valve away from the tank to solve he issue but should it vibrate at all