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Paul-Worc Bosch

Hi,

I've had an annual service contract with Worcester Bosch (WB) for 10 years. I've got a Greenstar ZWBR 7-25.

In March 2013 their Service Technician spent no more than 20 minutes inside of my home carrying out a full annual service. My father attended the service, as I was at work. When I found out the duration of his visit I was very angry. This contract costs me the best part of £200 each year. Amongst other things safety checks are meant to be carried out in this service.

The Technician left without issuing a service report, and this has not been received subsequently, despite more than 30 days elapsing since this visit.

I complained to WB, sending my mobile phone records that show the time and phone number of the Technicians call, when he announced he would arrive in "10 minutes". Then the record of my father’s call confirming that the Technician had finished and was outside in his van. I was able to accurately demonstrate to WB that the Technician could not have spent more than 20 minutes in my home.

I do not know why WB did this. My father is elderly and maybe looked like someone who would not notice that an improper service had been carried out.

After submitting the complaint email to WB explaining what had happened I received a phone call from the northern service manager. Nine days had elapsed between the email being sent and the first contact (other than their email receipt), this phone call. I do not think this length of time is acceptable for any complaint, let alone one where clearly an improper service, quite possibly skipping safety checks is the topic.

The Manager agreed that a proper service could not have been carried out in 20 minutes. He said that the Technician concerned was on holiday, but he would be taking up the matter with him upon his return. Apologies were given, and it was agreed that a return visit by another Technician was be made. This time I was assured he would carry out the service correctly. A time of 8am was set on the agreed date.

I waited in my house for the Technician to turn up. By 11am I phoned WB to see why he had not turned up. I was told, that although the visit was shown on their system no Technician had been assigned. Thus no one was going to attend. Why had I not been contacted before the visit to discuss this problem?

I asked for the name of the person next up the hierarchy of service management, this was not given on the basis that the WB employee manning their switchboard didn't know and couldn’t find out.

So I asked if a Technician could be redirected onto my job, given the circumstances. This was refused.

I tried contacting the northern service manager directly (remember he had previously called me using his own mobile, and told me it was ok to phone him if there were any problems) I got his answer phone, he was on holiday.

WB has placed an "urgent" priority on my follow up complaint, which I lodged today.

I will keep updating his thread. I believe this kind of behaviour needs to be publicised so that those interested in using or purchasing from WB can make informed decisions about this company.

I expect WB will eventually provide a correct service. But for me that’s not the point. There are wider implications to what they attempted to do.


I would appreciate any advice you could offer on how to deal with this situation:

1) 1) Has there been an attempt to defraud me?

2) 2) Are they in breach of legislation by consenting to carry out a service with safety checks, then attempting to mislead me when they didn’t actually carry out these checks?
3) Should I seek legal representation at this stage?
4) Is there an industry ombudsman I can turn to?


Regards
Paul
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Calm down dear

If all is working well, why not complete a service in 20 mins, what do you want, him to string it out just to make you feel better?

He must have looked inside the boiler, done an FGA and left. If its been well maintained over the last x years what else is there to do?
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Agreed. there is very little to do in servicing a modern WB boiler. A check of the safety valve and a clean of the condense trap, the FGA check tells the rest of the story, if it was outside of the limits as laid down in the manufaturers instructions then a full strip down and investigation would be called for.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

This is a WB Technician who works on WB boilers all day/week/year.
I assume the £200 gets more than just 1 visit if required plus a yearly service?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Before deciding that 20minutes was insufficient I spent about an hour checking on various websites of independents who specialise in boiler servicing. I found that 45 minutes was a minimum.

In all of the 6 or so visits to my home that I personally attended it did in fact take 45 minutes or more to service my boiler.

And finally the WB northern service manager agreed that it was not possible to get through the checks WB prescribed for my boiler in 20 minutes.

I truly feel that this service was not done correctly for all of the above reasons.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

My contract also includes for replacement parts I believe.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Hi,

I've had an annual service contract with Worcester Bosch (WB) for 10 years. I've got a Greenstar ZWBR 7-25.

In March 2013 their Service Technician spent no more than 20 minutes inside of my home carrying out a full annual service. My father attended the service, as I was at work. When I found out the duration of his visit I was very angry. This contract costs me the best part of £200 each year. Amongst other things safety checks are meant to be carried out in this service.

The Technician left without issuing a service report, and this has not been received subsequently, despite more than 30 days elapsing since this visit.

I complained to WB, sending my mobile phone records that show the time and phone number of the Technicians call, when he announced he would arrive in "10 minutes". Then the record of my father’s call confirming that the Technician had finished and was outside in his van. I was able to accurately demonstrate to WB that the Technician could not have spent more than 20 minutes in my home.

I do not know why WB did this. My father is elderly and maybe looked like someone who would not notice that an improper service had been carried out.

After submitting the complaint email to WB explaining what had happened I received a phone call from the northern service manager. Nine days had elapsed between the email being sent and the first contact (other than their email receipt), this phone call. I do not think this length of time is acceptable for any complaint, let alone one where clearly an improper service, quite possibly skipping safety checks is the topic.

The Manager agreed that a proper service could not have been carried out in 20 minutes. He said that the Technician concerned was on holiday, but he would be taking up the matter with him upon his return. Apologies were given, and it was agreed that a return visit by another Technician was be made. This time I was assured he would carry out the service correctly. A time of 8am was set on the agreed date.

I waited in my house for the Technician to turn up. By 11am I phoned WB to see why he had not turned up. I was told, that although the visit was shown on their system no Technician had been assigned. Thus no one was going to attend. Why had I not been contacted before the visit to discuss this problem?

I asked for the name of the person next up the hierarchy of service management, this was not given on the basis that the WB employee manning their switchboard didn't know and couldn’t find out.

So I asked if a Technician could be redirected onto my job, given the circumstances. This was refused.

I tried contacting the northern service manager directly (remember he had previously called me using his own mobile, and told me it was ok to phone him if there were any problems) I got his answer phone, he was on holiday.

WB has placed an "urgent" priority on my follow up complaint, which I lodged today.

I will keep updating his thread. I believe this kind of behaviour needs to be publicised so that those interested in using or purchasing from WB can make informed decisions about this company.

I expect WB will eventually provide a correct service. But for me that’s not the point. There are wider implications to what they attempted to do.


I would appreciate any advice you could offer on how to deal with this situation:

1) 1) Has there been an attempt to defraud me?

2) 2) Are they in breach of legislation by consenting to carry out a service with safety checks, then attempting to mislead me when they didn’t actually carry out these checks?
3) Should I seek legal representation at this stage?
4) Is there an industry ombudsman I can turn to?


Regards
Paul

As said if all was in tolerance fine, which i would expect if serviced every year, maybe the year before they were much longer and fitted a new electrode etc?

As for you treatment regards the follow up, thats poor for WB to be honest, they are usually top notch.....calm down and speak to a supervisor who will sort the issue amd "maybe" if you treat them as human and not threaten legal proceeding compensate you for your time etc....good luck

You dont drive a Land Rover do you?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Just checked the MI's for that partiular model. they state -

"Check that the condensate trap and syphon are clear and clean, if necessary, by draining and refilling. Remove the yellow cap at the base of the siphon to drain. See Fig. 30.

Ensure that the system is full, vented and pressurised.
Check the inlet gas pressure and the maximum heat input. Refer to Table 1 and Section 7. If the gas rate has dropped by more than 5% from the specified figure then check the combustion performance of the appliance.

Connect a combustion test meter (to read CO2%)to the test point on the flue turret and operate the appliance at maximum input or 10 minutes. See Section 11. A CO2 reading of about 9.5±
0.2% should be achieved.

If the figures for the gas rate and the CO2 are not satisfactory then it will be necessary for the appliance flueways to be cleaned."

So yeah, 20 mins perfectly feasible, especially if he's at it all the time.
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Vern,

In previous visits there have been no parts to fit or faults to fix. I had an electrode fitted one. The services still took 45 minutes.

Although not part of the central heating indsutry I've 20years as a plant engineer with experience working with contractors on large industrial gas fired heating systems. I know a good and thorough, knowledgeable contractor when i meet one.

I have always been impressed with WB in those respects. Hence the continuance of the contract. Of course the recent problems appear to be down to one bad technician and a botched booking system.

But the point is that i paid for certain checks to be done to ensure the relaibility and safety of my combi. WB themselves admit this was not done in the last visit, hence the follow up visit, that failed.

I've sent two emails and made three phone calls to get to the stage i was at this morning. I have given them plenty of opportunity to rectify this situation. I don't think they are taking this seruiously, and i think it needs escalating.

No Land Rover I'm afraid.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

And if he carried out the checks, where is the service report?
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

And if he carried out the checks, where is the service report?

I would agree that is a valid point, also agree that the WB service desk is not giving you the service they usually accomplish, I think you have grounds for complaint there.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

And if he carried out the checks, where is the service report?

Id imagine a firm the size of WB log all their work electronically and the engineer filled out his findings on a laptop of some sort, so this report should be easily obtainable. However, they have no legal obligation to leave any paperwork behind on a service. But, if you ask for it then they have to, so ask them for it again and they will have to send it legally.

As for the twenty minute service, I think its easily achievable if everything is ok. It's not like he had to check your radiators/pipework/gas meter etc, as this wouldn't be covered.

As long as everything is ok then I wouldn't worry about it, half of a service nowadays on a band A condensing boiler are visual checks and these can be carried out very quickly if done each day, day in, day out.

If he had found anything out of sorts then he would have sorted it, he probably has a van full of stock and its probably not worth the grief of a call back to him.
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Sorry mis read thread
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Vern,

In previous visits there have been no parts to fit or faults to fix. I had an electrode fitted one. The services still took 45 minutes.

Although not part of the central heating indsutry I've 20years as a plant engineer with experience working with contractors on large industrial gas fired heating systems. I know a good and thorough, knowledgeable contractor when i meet one.

I have always been impressed with WB in those respects. Hence the continuance of the contract. Of course the recent problems appear to be down to one bad technician and a botched booking system.

But the point is that i paid for certain checks to be done to ensure the relaibility and safety of my combi. WB themselves admit this was not done in the last visit, hence the follow up visit, that failed.

I've sent two emails and made three phone calls to get to the stage i was at this morning. I have given them plenty of opportunity to rectify this situation. I don't think they are taking this seruiously, and i think it needs escalating.

No Land Rover I'm afraid.

very strange WB normally leave a report covering gas pressure, co2 readings etc etc,........i would have a chat Mon to sort Paul as there will be more gaffers around
 
Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CHECKS

I do all my recording on ipad, so the customer doesn't get a copy unless its requested (other than what i write in back of boiler book).

As Tom said, there's no obligation to leave you with anything.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Why do you need legal representation?

Just take your money elsewhere, i think your over reacting
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Definitely over reacting!

I & I expect many other engineers can perform all the neccessary safety checks including flue gas adjustments etc if needed within 20 minutes on a modern Worcester Bosch! If I'm being honest I usually take my time & can make it last 45 minutes, as I would not like customers to feel I rushed the job!

i would be pretty sure all the checks were done, and your boiler is operating safely!

Worcester usually log all details and a paper copy is sent in the post, it may take awhile but if you received them before then it will arrive!

Talk of legal representation, don't be silly!
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Done many services on modern WBs but 20min is simply impossible to me. Anyone noticed the checkbox for the energy efficiency checks? How long does a gas tightness test take and how quick can you open and close the casing on a GS Junior for example? Add all that together, when do you get your analyser/kit in? Who and when fills in your forms? When and how do you ask the customer about potential irregularities, when and how do you note the last fault and reset the service reminder? Anyone FGAed and set up the boiler which on most devices happens annually, best biennially?
What about the condensate trap, fan pressure?
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Done many services on modern WBs but 20min is simply impossible to me. Anyone noticed the checkbox for the energy efficiency checks? How long does a gas tightness test take and how quick can you open and close the casing on a GS Junior for example? Add all that together, when do you get your analyser/kit in? Who and when fills in your forms? When and how do you ask the customer about potential irregularities, when and how do you note the last fault and reset the service reminder? Anyone FGAed and set up the boiler which on most devices happens annually, best biennially?
What about the condensate trap, fan pressure?

i doubt Worcester do a gas tightness test on a service contract! Plus a Worcester engineer does these boilers day in & out!

The last time I called Worcester they changed a faulty pcb on a cdi in a few minutes!

I'm sure the likes of British gas, who just stick there analyser in without sometimes takin the case off are not at a property 20 minutes!

Multi tasking, whack it in max, checking gas inlet plus fan pressure At the same time. The condensate has a clear plastic housing, it may not have required cleaning of done last year... Etc
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

OP, I think you have a complaint with regard to lack of customer service but I think this could be a side effect of being a little heavy handed. I find a little tact and diplomacy can go a long way. Oh, and I don't see how you being a plant engineer has anything to do with the issue.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

My comments, based on the many helpful posts I've received:

It seems that for my £200 I've had the most basic of services, which should at the least be adequate. All of the other years when WB took 45 minutes or so, the Technician either took his time or went beyond the basic servicing content. For the amount I am paying I think that I'm entitled to more than 20 minutes worth. I can't help but feel more checks equals more faults found or prevented from developing into break downs. And if nothings found, then alls well and good, but at least I know that I've had value for money and have peace of mind. Some of the independents have posted lists of checks they carry out, far more extensive than what WB are doing to my boiler, and for a lot less money.

Remember their own service manager agrees 20 minutes is insufficient. So although its possible to carry out essential checks in this time that is not what the service manager is expecting the Technicians to do.

The point posted that the contract probably doesn't specify what constitutes a service is correct. My contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year.

In the past I've always been given a report, without the need to request it. To start with it was given at the time of the service, but its been posted in recent years. This time nothing. I did point out (and requested a copy) that the report was not issued in my first contact when I complained about the 20 minute visit. That was about 5 weeks ago, still no report. I will re-request that I'm sent a copy.

You're rght. I've calmed down a lot since I posted this morning. I live alone and work lots of hours. Time away from my job is precious time. For me to give up my Saturday morning to wait in for the follow up service and have them not turn up was maddening. Remember, it was me who phoned them to find out what was going on. A quick phone call to tell me the day before that they're rescheduling would have cost next to nothing and kept me on side, and I think is a reasonable way to go about their business.

As it stands I feel this contract is poor value for money, the way they've messed me around with slow responses to complaints (weeks pass by) and then dropping me in this morning I can't accept. The lack of a report, even though requested, is suspect to my mind.

I am guessing that you guys are all in the service sector, rather than customers like myself. Its useful to hear your take on the events. So given that my £200 contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year on my 15yr old Greenstar. Do you think in the long term I'd be better off with a good independent, or stick WB?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

My comments, based on the many helpful posts I've received:

It seems that for my �200 I've had the most basic of services, which should at the least be adequate. All of the other years when WB took 45 minutes or so, the Technician either took his time or went beyond the basic servicing content. For the amount I am paying I think that I'm entitled to more than 20 minutes worth. I can't help but feel more checks equals more faults found or prevented from developing into break downs. And if nothings found, then alls well and good, but at least I know that I've had value for money and have peace of mind. Some of the independents have posted lists of checks they carry out, far more extensive than what WB are doing to my boiler, and for a lot less money.

Remember their own service manager agrees 20 minutes is insufficient. So although its possible to carry out essential checks in this time that is not what the service manager is expecting the Technicians to do.

The point posted that the contract probably doesn't specify what constitutes a service is correct. My contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year.

In the past I've always been given a report, without the need to request it. To start with it was given at the time of the service, but its been posted in recent years. This time nothing. I did point out (and requested a copy) that the report was not issued in my first contact when I complained about the 20 minute visit. That was about 5 weeks ago, still no report. I will re-request that I'm sent a copy.

You're rght. I've calmed down a lot since I posted this morning. I live alone and work lots of hours. Time away from my job is precious time. For me to give up my Saturday morning to wait in for the follow up service and have them not turn up was maddening. Remember, it was me who phoned them to find out what was going on. A quick phone call to tell me the day before that they're rescheduling would have cost next to nothing and kept me on side, and I think is a reasonable way to go about their business.

As it stands I feel this contract is poor value for money, the way they've messed me around with slow responses to complaints (weeks pass by) and then dropping me in this morning I can't accept. The lack of a report, even though requested, is suspect to my mind.

I am guessing that you guys are all in the service sector, rather than customers like myself. Its useful to hear your take on the events. So given that my �200 contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year on my 15yr old Greenstar. Do you think in the long term I'd be better off with a good independent, or stick WB?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

What area you in paul, im sure someone from here can help
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

My comments, based on the many helpful posts I've received:

It seems that for my �200 I've had the most basic of services, which should at the least be adequate. All of the other years when WB took 45 minutes or so, the Technician either took his time or went beyond the basic servicing content. For the amount I am paying I think that I'm entitled to more than 20 minutes worth. I can't help but feel more checks equals more faults found or prevented from developing into break downs. And if nothings found, then alls well and good, but at least I know that I've had value for money and have peace of mind. Some of the independents have posted lists of checks they carry out, far more extensive than what WB are doing to my boiler, and for a lot less money.

Remember their own service manager agrees 20 minutes is insufficient. So although its possible to carry out essential checks in this time that is not what the service manager is expecting the Technicians to do.

The point posted that the contract probably doesn't specify what constitutes a service is correct. My contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year.

In the past I've always been given a report, without the need to request it. To start with it was given at the time of the service, but its been posted in recent years. This time nothing. I did point out (and requested a copy) that the report was not issued in my first contact when I complained about the 20 minute visit. That was about 5 weeks ago, still no report. I will re-request that I'm sent a copy.

You're rght. I've calmed down a lot since I posted this morning. I live alone and work lots of hours. Time away from my job is precious time. For me to give up my Saturday morning to wait in for the follow up service and have them not turn up was maddening. Remember, it was me who phoned them to find out what was going on. A quick phone call to tell me the day before that they're rescheduling would have cost next to nothing and kept me on side, and I think is a reasonable way to go about their business.

As it stands I feel this contract is poor value for money, the way they've messed me around with slow responses to complaints (weeks pass by) and then dropping me in this morning I can't accept. The lack of a report, even though requested, is suspect to my mind.

I am guessing that you guys are all in the service sector, rather than customers like myself. Its useful to hear your take on the events. So given that my �200 contact provides an annual service, free parts and labour for repairs for a year on my 15yr old Greenstar. Do you think in the long term I'd be better off with a good independent, or stick WB?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

SimonG,


My initial post does come across as heavy handed, so I can understand your view. But that’s not how I’ve dealt with WB so far. They’ve received nothing but polite, though I admit firm phone calls and two factual emails. I’ve had a service that their own manager agrees was not sufficient, waited weeks for replies to my complaint, and then this morning got dropped in , plus WB had no intention of ever calling me to reschedule today’s missed visit.


I really don’t think I’ve brought this upon myself.


Gasmannxxx,


I live in Sunderland. I would appreciate a contact for a good independent. I’m sure WB will come good in the end, but I no longer think they are the best solution for me.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

If i'm right this thread is all about someone takin 20 mins to do in your opinion 45 mins of work for £200 ,

maybe the previous service engineers were stringing out 20 mins worth of work over 45 ??
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Maybe he was in a rush to catch a plane to go on holiday?
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

Maybe just maybe he's that damn good at his job!
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

To be fair, I can easily complete a service on a Greenstar in 20 minutes -. Analyse is whilst checking working pressure, fan pressure and gas rate - adjust the readings in max/min if required and once they are correct, test the FSD and you're away!

That's why I always love reading Greenstar in the job history on the laptop, you know you're in for an easy job!
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

I assume for your 200 quid it includes call outs and parts replacement, so the service and safety check is only a part of what your paying for.
 
Worcesters are all i fit now, theres nothing to em really. 20mins sounds like a fast time but it an't if your boiler is under 6yrs. After that i believe they advise you to inspect certain parts and replace the seals if i remember from a factory tour.

If your not having any problems dont worry. Or if you are, ask for a service report and a copy of FGA. I always staple a copy of FGA to the benchmark and service book.
 
Worcesters are all i fit now, theres nothing to em really. 20mins sounds like a fast time but it an't if your boiler is under 6yrs. After that i believe they advise you to inspect certain parts and replace the seals if i remember from a factory tour.

If your not having any problems dont worry. Or if you are, ask for a service report and a copy of FGA. I always staple a copy of FGA to the benchmark and service book.
I am aware of the figures WB gives you. And in an ideal world this would work out. For example they tell you that the heat exchanger on the Ri can get changed in 20 minutes. Just it does not allow the 30 minutes to carefully trying to lift it of the baked on connection. Which finally only succeeded under slight malformation of the casing due to the required brute force.

WB as well tells you that the boilers come preset from factory. Especially when you do commission them properly you would have found in the past at least every fifth of the LPG boilers completely off and requiring a complete setup.

How quick can you check the expansion vessel? And how often they need recharging? 20 minutes for a complete service?
I asked my exboss to show me how that is done as he came with this funny idea too. Surprisingly he skipped this option to improve the efficiency of his plumbers by miles.
 
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20 mins on a wb is easily achievable, the hard thing is to find something to do so the custard isnt ****ed off with you doing it in 20 mins. All it is as has been said is fga, fan vacuum pressure, if condensate trap is clean no taking it off and input pressure to cover your bum and done! Ifa visual proves no leaks then off and away. If your coughing £200 a year for servicing alone them wb are on to a good deal, if its for repairs then whats your issue?
 
I
20 mins on a wb is easily achievable, the hard thing is to find something to do so the custard isnt ****ed off with you doing it in 20 mins. All it is as has been said is fga, fan vacuum pressure, if condensate trap is clean no taking it off and input pressure to cover your bum and done! Ifa visual proves no leaks then off and away. If your coughing £200 a year for servicing alone them wb are on to a good deal, if its for repairs then whats your issue?

This is how I get and keep a lot of customers. Checking the expansion vessel is essential. The usual thing then is the customer complaining about constant pressure loss. The frequent refills will have caused by that time plenty of corrosion. And the system is sludged up causing expensive repairs. And all that for laziness or inability to read the MIs.
 
so if a boiler is operating ok and system pressure isnt rising rapidly and prv isnt leaking etc isnt that a good indication the expansion vessel is ok? your also supposed to check prvs on a service according to most mis but I never touch them as that normally starts a problem. the most important part of any service is asking the custard if everything is ok, regular fills required? etc. Last thing I want to be doing is draining out water to then be filling it with fresh water to encourage corrosion, which is what you do by checking a functioning expn vessel iaw mis. each to his own but best not to be calling people lazy and illiterate
 
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This is why I take my time doing a service if I know its complete in about 20 mins which certainly can be done.

i had this in the week on the way home 2year old WBosch. All working fine but I didn't want to complete it to quickly for the reasons that you are so angry about.was done in 45 mins.

the service has probably been done correctly but they have so many to do on their list for the day they don't want to hang about and why should they. The reason I did is because it was a new customer for me so 25 mins faffing might get me more work.
 
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so if a boiler is operating ok and system pressure isnt rising rapidly and prv isnt leaking etc isnt that a good indication the expansion vessel is ok? your also supposed to check prvs on a service according to most mis but I never touch them as that normally starts a problem. the most important part of any service is asking the custard if everything is ok, regular fills required? etc. Last thing I want to be doing is draining out water to then be filling it with fresh water to encourage corrosion, which is what you do by checking a functioning expn vessel iaw mis. each to his own but best not to be calling people lazy and illiterate
Sounds you are basing your boiler service on the assumption it might be right, possibly. But you have not checked it? Where does that take us? Assuming that the gas pipe has no leaks? Assuming that the combustion might be okay? Assuming the condensate trap will last another year?

Suppose the customer was assuming too. In specific that you did the job you expect to be paid for.

By starting to look at the expansion vessel you will be amazed how much these can tell you about the system.
And you can actually combine the test for the PRV with the expansion vessel test.

If it gets done regularly you would not face the problems with not sealing PRVs.

With the laziness I have not finger pointed. Here I was assuming that only the ones take it on board that should do. If you do a good service for your customers nobody will complain.
 
hang on dirk, whos assuming combustion is ok if you do an fga, who has to do a tightness test on a service according to the rules, it would seem you assume to much. Most people will not use a prv to drain down as it can destroy the seating and if the vessel is operating ok why is there a need to test it? If it fails it doesnt work if its working its ok. if your servicing the same boiler regularly then you know its history and any issues, if you see it for the first time then its best to spend a little more time on it in my opinion. All thats been said here is that if you follow the wb servicing mis then its perfectly feasable to do the lot in 20 mins. After all even the wb training dept have stated its simple and quick to service a jnr or cdi as theres so little to do if its working ok. they dont mention being lazy or not being able to read. I prefer to leave a service knowing i wont get a call back when the prv fails a few days down the line having fiddled with it.
 
In real life no-one isolates the boiler, drains it down & tests / pump up expansion! Plus then opens the prv to check it operates!

If the pressure is stable, with no high rise & the customer confirms no frequent top up then that to me confirms an okay vessel!

If I isolate the boiler, the valves will probably start leaking. The schrader valve will then start passing, the prv will continually drip after opening & the customer certainly won't be thanking me for now saying I need to replace parts!

I think with knowledge & experiences engineers can tell alot about the boiler without following books by the letter!

Its like the old boilers that tell us to completely strip the boiler, removing fan, burner nozzle, etc etc, we don't do those parts either if its going to break seals that we then have to source & replace!!
 
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Your better off checking the expansion vessel next time the system is drained for any reason! Saves touching old valves, or touching the prv!

Anyone who opens a prv on a greenstar situated at the back of the hydronic block is asking for trouble! I hope you have not got any jobs booked in after that service if you do lol!
 
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Your better off checking the expansion vessel next time the system is drained for any reason! Saves touching old valves, or touching the prv!

Anyone who opens a prv on a greenstar situated at the back of the hydronic block is asking for trouble! I hope you have not got any jobs booked in after that service if you do lol!
Had to change one yesterday, ball ache, crap boiler, crap design. Good earner tho haha 🙂
 
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In real life no-one isolates the boiler, drains it down & tests / pump up expansion! Plus then opens the prv to check it operates!

If the pressure is stable, with no high rise & the customer confirms no frequent top up then that to me confirms an okay vessel!

If I isolate the boiler, the valves will probably start leaking. The schrader valve will then start passing, the prv will continually drip after opening & the customer certainly won't be thanking me for now saying I need to replace parts!

I think with knowledge & experiences engineers can tell alot about the boiler without following books by the letter!

Its like the old boilers that tell us to completely strip the boiler, removing fan, burner nozzle, etc etc, we don't do those parts either if its going to break seals that we then have to source & replace!!
I assume. I better should not comment on this.
And no, spiking pressure is a sign only of either incomplete service or a faulty expansion vessel. Picture your expansion vessel like a car tyre. Are you driving till there is no pressure left? This usually leaves the customer with a hefty fine for replacing the vessel as then it had started rusting (gap corrosion) and piercing the membrane.

If you try to reinflate one of those poor ignored vessels they typically break down.

Same with the PRV. These are actually built to reseal. But left alone they might gather all sorts. Best combined with the system needing recharged for the last 11 month as the engineer could not be bothered to check. And getting much more content replaced but just half an expansion vessel. Now opening indeed can cause something stuck in there. Or the seal just simply sticks over the years. And gets ruptured. But let's face it, it is only a safety device, nothing important.

And how do you need to isolate the boiler for doing so?

The TT indeed is no requirement. But you honestly break into the test nipples and walk away without the feeling to better have checked. Not to talk about it being considered as good practice. Which in return has a legal meaning to you.
If nothing happens, fine. If something happens, you have to answer the question why you did not do it. Last man on the system and no check, tztztz.
 
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And how do you need to isolate the boiler for doing so?

How do you test & top up expansion without isolating the boiler?
 
Yes the prv is built to reseal... But in the real world. It does not!

the same as a drain off does not open & when it does it leaks everywhere!

A gate valve is designed to shut water off but fails too, same as pump valves!
 
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these digs at landy owners vern 3 of the mods own them and croppies a supporter,and mischievous mods can make your posts read very strange you have been warned :tongue3:
 
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Most Worcesters I seen are 0.75

but that has to be tested with the heating side depressurised or your getting a false reading!? And to top up requires an open end on the heating circuit so to build up pressure in the vessel.
 
Most Worcesters I seen are 0.75

but that has to be tested with the heating side depressurised or your getting a false reading!? And to top up requires an open end on the heating circuit so to build up pressure in the vessel.

thats why I said its best to test & charge expansion when the system is next drained
 
thats why I said its best to test & charge expansion when the system is next drained

Rule of thumb as I have been taught is half the design pressure of the expansion vessel. Most WBs I came across had 1bar design pressure on the vessel hence the 0.5bar system pressure.

Your false reading can only happen if the system pressure is equal or higher than the expansion vessel pressure.

All you do is watch the system pressure whilst topping up. If moving, discharge more.
 
As we all ask,what is a 'service' ????
Well, in my opinion in specific a manufacturers engineer (was he?) should at least follow the written instructions of his own employer.

On the other side I do see the BG-type of service as well as the WB-quick service as a total legitimate way of doing it as they do provide a guarantee with it.

But your neighbour going about servicing boilers should not try to accommodate their way of working as he does not provide the customer with a guarantee on the boiler function. In this case there should be a complete service the only thing a customer can expect.

Not to forget BG as WB sit in the board making the rules for us. If anything would come across they can legalize it to an extend. Does Joe Plumber have the same possibility? Not exactly.
 
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Well, in my opinion in specific a manufacturers engineer (was he?) should at least follow the written instructions of his own employer.

On the other side I do see the BG-type of service as well as the WB-quick service as a total legitimate way of doing it as they do provide a guarantee with it.

But your neighbour going about servicing boilers should not try to accommodate their way of working as he does not provides the customer with a guarantee on the boiler function. In this case there should be a complete service the only thing a customer can expect.

Not to forget BG as WB sit in the board making the rules for us. If anything would come across they can legalize it to an extend. Does Joe Plumber have the same possibility? Not exactly.

I don't want to dig it all up again, but I can't even remember reading in the new Worcester blurb to check the expansion pressures on a annual service!

I know Vaillant say to check on every third year... They also tell you to isolate & drain to do so ... Between 0.75 - 0.90
 
Well, in my opinion in specific a manufacturers engineer (was he?) should at least follow the written instructions of his own employer.

On the other side I do see the BG-type of service as well as the WB-quick service as a total legitimate way of doing it as they do provide a guarantee with it.

But your neighbour going about servicing boilers should not try to accommodate their way of working as he does not provide the customer with a guarantee on the boiler function. In this case there should be a complete service the only thing a customer can expect.

Not to forget BG as WB sit in the board making the rules for us. If anything would come across they can legalize it to an extend. Does Joe Plumber have the same possibility? Not exactly.
A service must be as mi's otherwise it's not a service surely ? A BG service as we all know isnt
 
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I don't want to dig it all up again, but I can't even remember reading in the new Worcester blurb to check the expansion pressures on a annual service!

I know Vaillant say to check on every third year... They also tell you to isolate & drain to do so ... Between 0.75 - 0.90
3 years is a good time if you use nitrogenspray for expansion vessels. Very normal in Germany.

Seen any of the sprays at the merchants? With air you are stretching it on most vessels with 2 years.

Had 2 WBs where the expansion vessel failed every year from year one service. Customers got new vessels during guarantee period. What if it had not been checked? Expensive repair on customers behalf. Not good service.
 
I don't want to dig it all up again, but I can't even remember reading in the new Worcester blurb to check the expansion pressures on a annual service!
You are right. Reading it is a bit of a joke. For example you get told to lower the boiler control into the service position. And then? Nothing! They do not tell you to use a flathead screwdriver to for the test connection. So I assume it does not need done. No mentioning of the vessel. No mentioning of the trap except in the part for cleaning the heat exchanger. So I believe it does not need checked or cleaned? It does not tell you to check the minimum setting although they provide you with a value for it. Does that mean we only look at it once the boiler does not start anymore?

According to the instructions you only have to open the casing, lower the boiler control and measure the fan pressure. Thats it. But you are only allowed to do that with an flue gas analyser and sufficiently trained for FGA.
Unless you cleaned the heat exchanger you do not even need to reassemble it.

Either Worcester assumes you know what to do on a service or someone saved himself a lot of time typing the normal steps of a boiler service for fully trained people.
 
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Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

I assume for your 200 quid it includes call outs and parts replacement, so the service and safety check is only a part of what your paying for.

pierrot, yes that's rights.
 
Re: Worc Bosch took 20 minutes for boiler "service". BEWARE - DID THEY SKIP SAFETY CH

As for WB, I got a free service call for my customer who's gstar 42cdi was out of guarantee, I suspected a blockage in the heat ex. WB tech turned up swapped the main heat ex in and out in less than an hour boiler workin fine all checks done. Completely FOC you can't beet that!
 
OP, I think you have a complaint with regard to lack of customer service but I think this could be a side effect of being a little heavy handed. I find a little tact and diplomacy can go a long way. Oh, and I don't see how you being a plant engineer has anything to do with the issue.

Totally agree with above post
Ps a little knowledge is usually a bad thing as you sound like you are over exaggerating a bit imho
And the services agree maybe just that not an engineer is may not really have a clue
 
these digs at landy owners vern 3 of the mods own them and croppies a supporter,and mischievous mods can make your posts read very strange you have been warned :tongue3:
Haha Mark.......I don't need any help to make my posts read strange lol
 
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Quick update.

WB have contacted me, explained what want wrong at their end regarding the missed visit, and apologised.

Later they contacted me again and arranged a new visit date.

Its looking good.
 
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Quick update.

WB have contacted me, explained what want wrong at their end regarding the missed visit, and apologised.

Later they contacted me again and arranged a new visit date.

Its looking good.

A happy ending I hope. These things happen. Hope they sort the issues for you.
 

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