WTF? Is this acceprable?

[Supermeteor]

Hi, Guys,

Retired from the trade, I had a "major supplier" fit a kitchen recently. Their plumber's work was appalling. The kitchen fitting company couldn't see a problem. Let's have a few opinions here. The plumber was about 28, had been working for 8 years, and he did this passover bend-

Yes, hot and cold touch... No worries, eh? Yes, really it's just aesthetics, but if he'd been in my classes, he'd have failed NVQ1...Then he did this-

Has this become acceptable? Aside from anything else, he soldered the tee above the valve in situ, exposing the plastic/rubber parts to heat, which I'd not ever consider doing... Taking an extreme example of this into account, has anyone else encountered a plastic WC cistern valve tail that had been subjected to heat, and which had become embrittled? I have, snagging on big developers' sites... Time to get out a brass tap extender for a quick, dirty, fix... (no, I'd change the filler valve... For a brass tailed one)
Of course, he soldered isolation valve connections while connected to isolators for the kitchen taps and garden tap, too. I know why some guys do it, it's to ensure the valves are perpendicular/vertical , but the dozy bugger didn't even achieve that, the valves isolating the kitchen taps are angled away from the vertical, and at different heights, too.
The kitchen company can't see an issue. (I had to explain to a partner in the company what he was looking at in the second pic...) Am I too fussy? Would his work get him a pass at college nowadays?
Cat, pigeons...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I’m surprised he’s used a set of benders most don’t

Also lever valve no rubber inside them

 

[Supermeteor]

I’m surprised he’s used a set of benders most don’t

Also lever valve no rubber inside them

You want to rethink that statement? 1/4 turn valves have nylon or rubber/synthetic rubber seatings, and rubber/synthetic rubber"O" rings around the spindle. Take one apart. I used to show students what they contained... I may post a pic if you doubt me. You think they're sealed metal/metal, like plug cocks?

Benders? yes, a relative who lives between here and Canada (not geographically, he splits his time...) sent me pics of a Canadian plumbing installation. Fittings everywhere. We're not allowed by "code " to bend, his plumber said... Bollocks! I read Ontario code. They just can't bend, and we're heading that way. I'll bend a 10mm offset. it would take 4 elbows, though, wouldn't it, to achieve a 10mm offset? And it would be ugly... Really ugly... That's the future

 

[snowhead]

Was Stevie Wonder his tutor?

 

[Supermeteor]

Was Stevie Wonder his tutor?

Stevie Wonder's guide dog, more like... (and, being an old dog, he had cataracts...)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You want to rethink that statement? 1/4 turn valves have nylon or rubber/synthetic rubber seatings, and rubber/synthetic rubber"O" rings around the spindle. Take one apart. I used to show students what they contained... I may post a pic if you doubt me. You think they're sealed metal/metal, like plug cocks?

Benders? yes, a relative who lives between here and Canada (not geographically, he splits his time...) sent me pics of a Canadian plumbing installation. Fittings everywhere. We're not allowed by "code " to bend, his plumber said... Bollocks! I read Ontario code. They just can't bend, and we're heading that way. I'll bend a 10mm offset. it would take 4 elbows, though, wouldn't it, to achieve a 10mm offset? And it would be ugly... Really ugly... That's the future

there more than fine to take the heat as there not rubber internals there ptfe/ teflon which as you know is ok upto 400dc

and its to do with there copper i belive harder than ours so it just splits / deforms / cracks so thats why they dont bend

 

[Scott_D]

Time to get your tools out and tidy it up

 

[firemant]

TBH, I am impressed that he has fitted a DC

😉

 

[SimonG]

Does it work?
Does it leak?

If you don't like it, re do it.

 

[Scott_D]

TBH, I am impressed that he has fitted a DC

😉

and a lever valve - not a £1 iso

 

[Reg Man]

Not a well thought out Job. This is an example of how our trade has become de-skilled. You are only as good as the person who taught you and some people do not recognise what is good or bad. Poor practice to solder next to anything with nylon or rubber and hate solder snots The two pipes touching will cause erosion and more to the point, the hot pipe will heat the cold, which should not happen under the WRAS regs (20 degrees rule). In fact ideally the cold should be lagged to keep the cold cool, but that rarely happens. Obviously we have all seen much worse.

 

[townfanjon]

Absolute garbage . Full stop .

 

[Supermeteor]

there more than fine to take the heat as there not rubber internals there ptfe/ teflon which as you know is ok upto 400dc

and its to do with there copper i belive harder than ours so it just splits / deforms / cracks so thats why they dont bend

Sad to say, I just checked the Pegler site (my preferred choice of ball valve) and while the seatings are, indeed, Teflon, the spindle seals are Viton, good for about the same temperature as lead free solder melts at. I consider it bad practice, anyway, and will never do it. The lubricant in the spindle, though, I instinctively believe will be degraded by high temperatures, and not every valve's made like Peglers. I've worked for companies that bought cheap... What temperature are their seals good for?

Annealed copper pipe is available in Ontario, but the guys prefer the simplicity of fittings. I had this discussion on the net with an Ontario plumber. He said how much easier fittings were, but the conversation ended when I posted pics of two offsets, side by side in a corner of my living room, offset to avoid a joist and the coving, and asked if 4 45's would look as good... I spent some time on social housing, all exposed heating pipes, all consistent from house to house, and a fussy site manager... Bending's not hard...

and a lever valve - not a £1 iso

Ask me who supplied the full bore lever valve and DOC...

 

[Burger]

This is an example of how our trade has become de-skilled. You are only as good as the person who taught you.

Very true statement. "Serving my time" at a council now turned Housing association: first "mentor" was good, taught me how to use a bender, then got put with someone who used a spring occasionally and loved hep, then put with people who occasionally used a bender and tap connections done with flexi hoses - I still struggle now and then with using a bender, 14 years on, so yes all depends on who or how you are taught 😔

 

[ShaunCorbs]

its a dying art tho to use a bender just look at the new build sites all plastic these days

if i can i will always pick a formed bend over a fitting

 

[Harvest Fields]

Surely you just use end feed off sets?😱😳😳

 

[Supermeteor]

Not a well thought out Job. This is an example of how our trade has become de-skilled. You are only as good as the person who taught you and some people do not recognise what is good or bad. Poor practice to solder next to anything with nylon or rubber and hate solder snots The two pipes touching will cause erosion and more to the point, the hot pipe will heat the cold, which should not happen under the WRAS regs (20 degrees rule). In fact ideally the cold should be lagged to keep the cold cool, but that rarely happens. Obviously we have all seen much worse.

Yes, thanks for the input. I used to teach plumbing... Basically, I'm having a kitchen fitted (expensively) and the workmanship has been appalling. It'll be my wife's first "professionally" fitted kitchen, and probably our last. I'm getting a bit old to fit worktops... (280kg, one of them...) The company director I was railing at couldn't understand why I was Soded off. When the guy came back to connect the sink taps and the waste, I'd done it. I couldn't live with more of his work, and the mixer tap was just too expensive and pretty to set him free on. I've been in "discussions" about the quality of all the work... tiling, plastering, carcass installation, sink aperture in a solid surface worktop... Name it, they didn't get any of it quite right. Had it been done on a Persimmon or David Wilson site, the manager would have drafted a four page snag list. I'm just conducting a vox pop before going much further... You get to a stage where you think "am I making too much fuss over this?" after speaking to people who really refuse to understand the problem and just want to get their money and move on... So far, wherever I've posted, it would appear I'm not...
I'm using this as therapy (no dog to kick...)
Much worse? He'd have had to solder the H&C together...

 

[Harvest Fields]

Was he/she the cheapest quote?

 

[Supermeteor]

and a lever valve - not a £1 iso

its a dying art tho to use a bender just look at the new build sites all plastic these days

if i can i will always pick a formed bend over a fitting

Yes, I did a lot of JG Speedfit. Hate it. Only thing is you can weave it easily through Ecos and TJIs. On one site, which had recently been agricultural land, we found rats got in between downstairs ceilings and upstairs floors and gnawed the fittings. Not tube, just the fittings. Little ratty toothmarks on all the fittings, and showers in every downstairs room when I let water in... (it had all been pressure tested days before) No nutritional value to the rats, of course... Buggers.
[automerge]1568407976[/automerge]

and a lever valve - not a £1 iso

Yes, but ask me who gave him the full bore valve...

 

[Chuck]

Yes, thanks for the input. I used to teach plumbing...

Then you're going to be appalled at a lot of modern workmanship. IME, if you think that your kitchen fitters' plumbing is bad, just wait until you see their wiring...

If you care about the workmanship these days I think you have to find and project manage your own team (plumber, sparks, carpenter, tiler, decorator). Make sure they're all time-served and understand what is meant by a good finish. You'll get what you want but it'll take twice as long and cost twice as much as getting the whole lot done by a single company.

 

[Supermeteor]

Was he/she the cheapest quote?

No. They did my neighbour's kitchen (far too cheaply) and I didn't baulk when they quoted me considerably more. I knew they'd under quoted my neighbour. I ended up with a different fitter and different plumber. I'm just venting here, really, to get it out of my system. I used to do a lot of work on Persimmon's sites, among others, and while they get a bad press, I'd rather have had the worst kitchen fitters from those sites than these guys. It'll outlast me, but I'll always remember the hassle. It needn't have been this way.
I showed a young woman I know how badly they'd cut a carcass back, and she said "if I couldn't cut neater than that, I'd be on YouTube trying to find a way to improve" It won't be seen, but it was just sloppy workmanship.
[automerge]1568409913[/automerge]

Then you're going to be appalled at a lot of modern workmanship. IME, if you think that your kitchen fitters' plumbing is bad, just wait until you see their wiring...

If you care about the workmanship these days I think you have to find and project manage your own team (plumber, sparks, carpenter, tiler, decorator). Make sure they're all time-served and understand what is meant by a good finish. You'll get what you want but it'll take twice as long and cost twice as much as getting the whole lot done by a single company.

Well, I wouldn't have needed a plumber... The sparky was good. I did consider engaging individuals, but it can go so wrong. Just needs one hangover or a vehicle breakdown to impact on subsequent trades' ability to work next day. (and my temperament isn't ideal for the task, anyway)

 

[Robert Bell]

I did my C&G about 14 years ago so a relatively young plumber though I’m getting a little long in the tooth and i still use a bender where I can. The modern ways are pretty awful to look at in some of these new builds.