The reason I don't use flexis...

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flexis are for diying wanabee plumbers, and copper is for dinosaurs who cant programe the bloomin vcr. Plastic is no good cus the tat man wont give you money for it.

im going back to lead :)
 
AW seeing as you're going back to lead, can you show the kiddies what a ball joint looks like! LOL

Personally I'm going back to Roman aqauducts.
 
We seem to do this subject every few months!!

I use flexi's. I use them a lot more than I did five years ago. If you go back to when I first started plumbing 15 years ago, (I'm only 33) I never used them or plastic pipe. Dad wouldn't allow it!

They have there place. They save time, they're (obviously) flexible so can save a lot of ball ache, and there are situations where you simply have to use them. (back to the wall pans for instance, where you can't see any of the plumbing when it's second fixed.

I haven't had one burst on me as yet. I'm sure the day will come. I've also been called to random leaks on 20 year old copper installations. Nothing is perfect. When I uprated my house to an unvented cylinder, it blew a 30 year old copper endfeed elbow off. I checked pipe and fitting. Both tinned with solder, it was just time for the fitting to go....that's life.
 
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But Danny, your end feed lasted 30 years before giving up the ghost. Do you seriously think that a flexi would last as long. Would you as a professional use them on a unvented cylinder?

I embrace new technology, I try it out and make my own opinion about it. Having used flexis in quite a few applications and seen some that have been installed by plumbers, and their failure rates, I just do not have confidence in them. If you and anyone else uses them and rates them highly, then that's fine, I do not have a problem with that, everyone does things to a method that they are happy with.
 
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i fancy a shot of doing a ball joint again (just to see if i can still do it) now wheres the shavehook and drift?
 
system3 said:
But Danny, your end feed lasted 30 years before giving up the ghost. Do you seriously think that a flexi would last as long. Would you as a professional use them on a unvented cylinder?

I embrace new technology, I try it out and make my own opinion about it. Having used flexis in quite a few applications and seen some that have been installed by plumbers, and their failure rates, I just do not have confidence in them. If you and anyone else uses them and rates them highly, then that's fine, I do not have a problem with that, everyone does things to a method that they are happy with.
Click to expand...


No I wouldn't dream of using a flexi on an unvented cylinder. Though there was a manufacturer (STELFLOW) who until recently supplied there unvented cylinder with one for the connection to the expansion vessel. They only stopped using it because the smaller bore caused noise issues. I will add, I always replaced the flexi hose with copper tube.

A flexi hose lasting 30 years? Unlikely in my opinion. So from that point you have got me hook line and sinker!!
 
I got to page 4 before i needed to add my bit so apologies if my post is repeating anybody elses post

The quandry is this no matter what anyone says copper will outlast anything plastic or rubber/flexi, thats not opinion its fact. the problem is work and life are not straight forward. in an ideal world we could all use the best materials and take our time to do the best job. but today we have so many people competing for jobs it is so tough and we are forced to use materials that will enable us to do a job at a price a customer is willing to pay. if your not one of those plumbers you truly are lucky and i guess you have will been on the tools for a long time with a very established customer base, i'm 5 years self employed. but sometimes against my own better judgement , we do have to use materials that do get the job done faster and it's not because we want to its because we have to.

when it comes down to paying the mortgage and feeding mouths i'm sorry but that comes first before choosing copper or plastic or flexi's even though i would rather use copper. i'd rather not use plastic and flexi's but on some jobs you just have too and it's down to economics and my pride does take second place to me paying the mortgage.

i do rarely use flexis as they are tat but sometimes only a flexi will get you out of a hole on friday night at 6.30.

that's life sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.

the bit about connecting cookers with flexis that is class it did make me laugh
 
claireplumb said:
System3: i know where ur all comin from, but i just dont trust fibre washers... sooo many times ive come across a copper tap connector with a broken fibre washer, or LS-X, or mastic all over it, or its been cross threaded...
a great example to use a flexi is when u have to replace an old tap with a new one and the new tap has a longer thread than the old, so you have the option of cutting the copper back and putting a new valve(which so often isnt there) on and a flexi because there isnt space to solder a copper pipe on with out burning the wall or the bath.
and often, the pipe has already been bent to suit the old so ur already struggling to find a long enough lenght of copper that you can connect to.
Click to expand...

Claire I'm with you and I guess I'm one off the old school as they say but we have to evolve I love copper but copper itself is becoming crap quality Tin like drop a bit on floor it don't sound like copper anymore
So I like the newer stuff multilayered
Do a lot of underfloor heating guess I'm silly for using plastic pipe for this guess it should be copper also lmao
 
i use flexis on a semi regular basis. if you use a wras approved product it should carry a minimum 10 year warranty - if installed correctly and fails within that time it becomes the manufacturers problem imo
 
the point about copper becoming crap quality is a good one. it's paper thin these days and probably more easily distorted microscopically shortening the lifespan of installations.
 
i find copper ripples all the time now when bending if your not careful, personally i will use anything i obviously prefer hard metal pipework like copper and stainless for durability, but ive got a job coming up where customer wants plastic so i will fit plastic upstairs but not downstairs because of mice, and i regulary use flexis in bathroom installs, makes life easier for me if anything bursts then its down to manufacturer not me
 
A burst flexi might end up being covered by a manufacturers warranty, but I'd much prefer not to have to rely on this in the first place after a flexi bursts and destroys someone's home.

Some copper is almost like thinwall tube, especially the cheap imported stuff. I have a supply of good copper that doesn't ripple in a machine, however all 22mm copper I've used in the last few years ripples with a bending spring.

Even if copper is thinner/not as good quality, it will still outlast a rubber hose many times over.
 
kirkgas said:
never used moleskin, just used folded up newspaper with a smear of flux, seemed to work ok
Click to expand...
I used to use a welders glove coated in flux and as I was wearing it while wiping the joint, I had better control of the solder.

Last one I did was a lead slate piece for copper expansion pipes going through the roof. Now I just lead burn the copper pipes to the lead or use a plastic Ubink.
 
system3 said:
But Danny, your end feed lasted 30 years before giving up the ghost. Do you seriously think that a flexi would last as long. Would you as a professional use them on a unvented cylinder?

I embrace new technology, I try it out and make my own opinion about it. Having used flexis in quite a few applications and seen some that have been installed by plumbers, and their failure rates, I just do not have confidence in them. If you and anyone else uses them and rates them highly, then that's fine, I do not have a problem with that, everyone does things to a method that they are happy with.
Click to expand...

What's a fill loop made from most of time
 
I suppose there's a wider issue. People used to live in the same house all their life, do the same career, stay married to the same person. Impermanance is now the norm. I don't think the manufacturers have any intention of their flexible hoses lasting 30 years. Nothing does. It's actually a bad business model. Much more lucrative to build an eventual fail date into the product.

A flexi is a plumbing part designed to last long enough that the person in the house doesn't not know or no longer remembers the name of the firm who installed it or considers it long enough ago that the plumber wouldn't be held liable when it goes. In that sense it really is the plumbing material of the modern age.
 
lbp plg & htg said:
You need to use them on some Unvented Cylinders - its the law!
Click to expand...
But not the cheap imported ones that are causing the problems and are now common place. If you install a cheap imported flexi on a unvented cylinder, then you have a problem.
 
went to a job yesterday, 2 flexis on hot to shower, 2 flexis to cold on shower all leaking. I replaced and it was 1 length of pipe for each, cold had 1 bend, hot had 3 bends, connected both with an isolation valve on one end and coupling on other end, whole job took me an hour.

I was amazed at why they didnt do this in the first place.

Pipes wont ever leak. even when they get old and start to corrode.

Flexis are made of stainless steel aren't they? which will rust and fall apart after 5-10 years?
 
jase158 said:
went to a job yesterday, 2 flexis on hot to shower, 2 flexis to cold on shower all leaking. I replaced and it was 1 length of pipe for each, cold had 1 bend, hot had 3 bends, connected both with an isolation valve on one end and coupling on other end, whole job took me an hour.

I was amazed at why they didnt do this in the first place.

Pipes wont ever leak. even when they get old and start to corrode. Yes they do, i regularly replace corroded leaking pipes.

Flexis are made of stainless steel aren't they? which will rust and fall apart after 5-10 years? High grade stainless won't rust but the stainless braiding is just a covering for the rubber underneath which is the weak point as thebraiding is not watertight.
Click to expand...

I've had properties where the owner has requested all plumbing is done in plastic due to the problems they've had with corrosion.
 
Corrosion depends a lot on if you live in a hard or soft water area, but I've never seen a copper pipe burst in the way that a cheap flexi has. In the vast majority of properties that have copper throughout, they experience little problem and their pipework will last as long as the building itself.

In 20 or so years, when all those O rings start to pop, the younger guys on here will be really busy.
 
bath tap at the back,fit tap with 2 copper tap connectors the 2 tails down to near floor push bath back and join to supply with compression fittings
 
Although I will no doubt keep using flexis, I see your point, and am I right in saying they suggest you shouldn't solder any joints 3-5 inches from the flexi? like ballaffix?
 
glenno1 said:
bath tap at the back,fit tap with 2 copper tap connectors the 2 tails down to near floor push bath back and join to supply with compression fittings
Click to expand...
then you have the ball ache of reaching under to back of bath to tighten comp fittings...not for me
imo
 
claireplumb said:
Although I will no doubt keep using flexis, I see your point, and am I right in saying they suggest you shouldn't solder any joints 3-5 inches from the flexi? like ballaffix?
Click to expand...

its good idea not to imo sweepea :) tho have done it and used cold wet rag wrapped round fitting
 
Flexis have their place - back to wall loos, difficult access hidden situations. Pumps are fitted with flexis to avoid noise transmission, etc.
Modern copper pipe is very thin compared to older stuff.
And anyway, how long do you want it to last? Bathrooms & kitchens are often replaced after 15 years or so anyway, due to changing tastes (and the fact that many taps give up the ghost). Anyone want to buy my old avocado suite with gold taps?
 
I agree with some of what you say DIY BOB. Bathrooms and kitchens do get updated and many are every 5 years. Even although they get updated, the majority of the existing water supply pipework is re-used and new connections are made to it. Copper in my opinion will be there long after the last flexi in the installation.

I don't need to or use flexis on a btw toilet. A concealed cistern can just as easliy be piped up in copper.

Pumps are connected with flexis nowadays as pumps need servicing. I'ts easier to connect/disconnect a flexi going to a pump than it is to repeatedly disturb an olive on a compression fitting. High pressure pumps need a small degree of movement in them too, so that is one advantage of where a flexi is an adavantage. However the flexis are usually very high quality ones that are tested to be used at high pressures.

My original post is about these cheapo imported flexis that are now common place. Even taps come supplied with these poor quality hoses. I know, I've seen a burst one in PTS last week.

As to plastic plumbing, much of what is being said about it is purely conjecture. We are surmising that a brand of push fit will last or fail after a certain period of time as it's not been in service long enough to validate/invalidate any manufacturers claims about the longetivity of it's service life.

I like the tried and tested approach to what I do and in my opinion, copper ticks all my boxes.
 
Cheers System 3. I fitted my back-to-the-wall bath with flexis, mainly 'cos time was of the essence and it didn't occur to me at the time. Too late now! I don't know how to fit a BTW loo without flexis, but don't worry, I'm not intending to fit one either - I made sure I got one with a cutaway at the back so I could pipe it in with copper. As for flexi corrugated toilet waste connections, not for me thanks!

I always use copper for plumbing where possible, but I did use plastic pipe to get to a radiator at the other side of the room - it was easy to feed through. I'll keep a close watch on the ceiling below, though...

Not interested in my avocado suite, then? Don't tell my missus about kitchens being replaced after 5 years, please!
 
system3 said:
I agree with some of what you say DIY BOB. Bathrooms and kitchens do get updated and many are every 5 years. Even although they get updated, the majority of the existing water supply pipework is re-used and new connections are made to it. Copper in my opinion will be there long after the last flexi in the installation.

I don't need to or use flexis on a btw toilet. A concealed cistern can just as easliy be piped up in copper.

Pumps are connected with flexis nowadays as pumps need servicing. I'ts easier to connect/disconnect a flexi going to a pump than it is to repeatedly disturb an olive on a compression fitting. High pressure pumps need a small degree of movement in them too, so that is one advantage of where a flexi is an adavantage. However the flexis are usually very high quality ones that are tested to be used at high pressures.

My original post is about these cheapo imported flexis that are now common place. Even taps come supplied with these poor quality hoses. I know, I've seen a burst one in PTS last week.

As to plastic plumbing, much of what is being said about it is purely conjecture. We are surmising that a brand of push fit will last or fail after a certain period of time as it's not been in service long enough to validate/invalidate any manufacturers claims about the longetivity of it's service life.

I like the tried and tested approach to what I do and in my opinion, copper ticks all my boxes.
Click to expand...

And the moral of tis 14 PAGE thread is......DA DA......DONT USE CHEAP IMPORTED FLEXIS....:6:
ROFLMAO :)
 
....copper is still best Dancin. Here's a new debate:
Copper olives are better than brass olives because........
 
system3 i think you protest too much............your van must be full of flexis and pushfits, its all in the name...........

plumbing systems-



system 1 ----- lead
system 2 ----- copper
SYSTEM 3 ----- FLEXI FLEXI FLEXI........... :tounge_smile:


KJ
 
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i put this question (to use or not to use flexis) to mu tutor at college. his answer was, 'why would you spend years at college pulling bends in copper pipe to then go and use a nasty flexi hose in someones house'. this isnt my argument as i havnt got the experience to even take part, i just thought id share my tutor's view.
 
WaterTight said:
I#m pretty sure, the more I think about it, that the reason I use flexi's is because it's quicker and more lucrative than copper.
Click to expand...

That hits the nail right on the head. Flexi's and plastics save time and time is money.

I still won't use flexis unless they come with the taps or it is a btw pan or plastics unless it is virtually impossible to run a copper pipe through the space without major disruption.

Maybe i'm old fashioned but i take pride in what i do and the materials i use. Plumbing is easy, Most people could use plastics and flexis without any skills. However i believe when i leave a job the customer can look at it and know he /she has had a professional job done and can see the quality they are paying for. The same can not be said for flexi's and plastics.
 
Sadly, I find most of the public are totally ignorant of what materials a plumber uses. Oddly, they often will pay high prices for an unprofessional job. A job that uses plastic plumbing & flexis should be much cheaper for the customer, IMO, otherwise there is no point a plumber bothering to use copper.
 
well just now i have had 3 jobs in the last two weeks that i have been out to leaks on heating or leaks in lofts because plastic has been used, Mice are eating the pipes as there looking for places to nest just now a real pain in the bum but pays the wages
 
I had a call to a house in Kilsyth last year where a room in the top floor of the house was like a waterfall. Mice were having a banquet on the plastic pipework in the attic.
Even the cleanest, most expensive houses can have mice at one time or another and they just love eating plastic pipe.

It's interesting that no plastic pipe manufacturer has come up with a solution to this problem.
 
Plastic pipe manufacturers probably don't like to broadcast the problem of rodents eating pipes. Small print says, not suitable for places with rodents. That could mean anywhere! They also won't like the dangers of too hot water destroying the pipes, when a boiler overheats.
 
Best said:
They also won't like the dangers of too hot water destroying the pipes, when a boiler overheats.
Click to expand...
That happened to me last year and a plastic joint blew into orbit. Once was enough and won't use it again.
 
system3 said:
That happened to me last year and a plastic joint blew into orbit. Once was enough and won't use it again.
Click to expand...

At a boiler today, that the control stat failed & the plastic flow pipe disintegrated in several places - even 4 metres from boiler! This does, & will happen, occasionally,- this is the third job I have seen with same thing. Had it have been copper - then no problem.
 
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