pump on solid fuel to overcome pipe drop

[john5711]

Thanks Shaun / Ric for your replies, not like the first reply of (What part of the country you in? Just want to make sure nowhere near me) that sort of comment doesn't help anybody,
Probably my fault for providing a crap drawing, at the moment its just in the early stage and the drawing was mainly looking about getting over that 350mm drop so didn't mark on as much detail as i should have done,
i know probably best to put cylinder in the loft but don't want to do that till i renovate the house in a couple of year, then will probably go to unvented with thermal store and possibly solar, the house is made of 3ft thick stone walls,

the comment about get a professional in the problem with that the are very few proper professionals left these days and especially ones that know about old school unvented wood burner systems,
for the last 15 years my job is running building building sites that normally build 3 story large quality houses in villages, normally always use the same contractors, builders, carpenters, ground workers etc, the biggest problem we have are plumbers, we have had a gas safe registered guy nail clipping 15mm copper pipe direct to concrete blocks pre plastering with no protection, putting in waste pipe with no fall, fitting unvented cylinders with the D1 pipe been about 3 metres in length and the list just goes on,

The guys we have at moment aren't to bad do a very neat job but on the first plot i had to pick them up on using speed fit on the secondary return and no check valves on main water pipe entering the building dishwasher and washing machine, all these people have certificates to say they are fully qualified,
the problem is the collages you hand them some money they make sure you pass so their pass rates look good,
also most of the tutors at collage have no idea or experience, all they know is what they have read in a book,
all the old boys with experience in the past when their knees gave in would possibly go and teach the next generation, but now you have to have a teaching degree and who wants to do that,

before i was in the building trade i worked for a few years with a experienced plumber i went to collage did NVQ level 2 & 3 water regs and unvented certificate, the tutor at collage was a complete idiot, he was supposed to be qualified to teach plumbing and electrics, what he knew was very little what he didn't know he made up, he tried telling me a millivolt was a millionth of a volt, and again the list goes on, i did complain to the collage about him but got nowhere
the was a few people on that course that should never have passed but when finished their exams he would have them in the office to change the answers so they passed, same as the unvented cylinder i had never seen such a abortion of pipe work but again they passed, most of my knowledge came from the chap i worked for, we did everything from commercial to domestic, solar panels, treatment plants, lot of unvented cylinders and gas boilers, we did do a few log burners connected to cylinders problem is i probably didn't take as much notice as i should have done and he is no longer with us to ask,
completely useless asking any of the plumbers on site as the wouldn't have a clue ,
im not going to fit anything till iam 100% sure its safe just need a bit of help with the design, i know its not the best way but that's what i have to work with for now,
Thanks

 

[john5711]

Ric forgot to say the weird bit that connects the flow and the return together is a gate valve open a very small amount to remove any air trapped in the return

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks Shaun / Ric for your replies, not like the first reply of (What part of the country you in? Just want to make sure nowhere near me) that sort of comment doesn't help anybody,

SimonG has the nickname Mr Shouty. He has his own way of communicating and in this case he certainly got his point across. I suppose my attitude is somewhat different as you need qualifications to do this that and the other on a heating system, but none at all to work on the brakes on your van.

Probably my fault for providing a crap drawing,

Well... now you mention it 😉

the comment about get a professional in the problem with that the are very few proper professionals left these days and especially ones that know about old school unvented wood burner systems,

Not entirely true, but depends where you are. Anywhere near Machynlleth, there are LOADS of people installing woodburners with backboilers partly due to the influence of the Centre for Alternative Technology over the years. You could try seeing who is installing woodburners as many of them will have some idea about solid fuel wet systems. Or try contacting the solid fuel association? In fairness, I have seen a professionally-installed system where someone ran a Fortic type cylinder off a woodburner (direct without a coil) which would have been okay in a soft water area, but then they also added a steel radiator which airlocked every time the household lit the stove, so I do agree a householder needs to check that professional installers know their trade.

for the last 15 years my job is running building building sites that normally build 3 story large quality houses in villages, normally always use the same contractors, builders, carpenters, ground workers etc, the biggest problem we have are plumbers, we have had a gas safe registered guy nail clipping 15mm copper pipe direct to concrete blocks pre plastering with no protection, putting in waste pipe with no fall, fitting unvented cylinders with the D1 pipe been about 3 metres in length and the list just goes on,

Yeah. Gas Safe installers aren't always the best plumbers. It would be better in some respects if the two trades were either totally combined or totally separated. Though, if we follow your thinking about the 'old boys' and experience, he's probably been installing gas pipes like that for 30 years and yet to have one leak. My own house has a gas pipe built into a brick wall and it's been like that since 1988, and possibly earlier. It's wrong but textbook says it's illegal, experience says it still works and gas installers who have visited the property say it's running under grandfather rights so long as it isn't leaking.

I can understand why you may have trouble finding good installers - I personally like the one-to-one contact with customers and dislike the fact that many builders underestimate the cost of plumbing and then push for sub-standard work so they can fit within their budget, need jobs done quickly and then postpone the day before you're supposed to start work, and the fact that in my experience they are the worst payers which has put me off rather - in fact I now refuse to work for anyone but the end customer (I may not be the only one?). Plenty of direct work for homeowners, so I'm not available for builders and I know many others in my situation are backlogged with work and would struggle to fit work for builders in. Very sad for builders who might be excellent customers that they are probably tarred with the same brush. Perhaps you just need to bit the bullet and employ directly (if that's an option, which I'm assuming it isn't else you'd have already done it)?

no check valves on main water pipe entering the building

Not legally required!

dishwasher and washing machine,

Not required... if the washing machine instructions state backflow protection is integrated in the machine and WRAS approved hoses are used to connect. In practice, I always fit check valves because the person installing the machine generally doesn't understand this and two valves are better than none if one is required.

all these people have certificates to say they are fully qualified,
the problem is the collages you hand them some money they make sure you pass so their pass rates look good,

And are under pressure to lift pass rates, even if they are council-owned because low pass rates suggest bad teachers or taking on the wrong students (even when they may also mean the college actually rightly fails those who shouldn't pass). The actual problem is that the NVQ system has very low hurdles and you can legitimately pass while knowing very little.

also most of the tutors at collage have no idea or experience, all they know is what they have read in a book,
all the old boys with experience in the past when their knees gave in would possibly go and teach the next generation, but now you have to have a teaching degree and who wants to do that,

You don't need a teaching degree to teach NVQ plumbing, but being able to teach and being able to do are different skill sets. Some people can do the job but couldn't teach for toffee. And actually, I know some old boys who still use lead solder on mains water because 'it's better' (which may be the case, but it's also illegal), don't understand how to flush out a new heating system properly and then blame the new boilers because the heat exchangers block up 'new boilers aren't reliable' they say... but their competition installs boilers that ARE reliable which suggests the problem is them and not the boilers. Sometimes experienced people spend their lives improving and learning, and sometimes they just keep doing the same thing they were taught as apprentices - it's not the same for all people.

before i was in the building trade i worked for a few years with a experienced plumber i went to collage did NVQ level 2 & 3 water regs and unvented certificate, the tutor at collage was a complete idiot, he was supposed to be qualified to teach plumbing and electrics, what he knew was very little what he didn't know he made up, he tried telling me a millivolt was a millionth of a volt, and again the list goes on, i did complain to the collage about him but got nowhere
the was a few people on that course that should never have passed but when finished their exams he would have them in the office to change the answers so they passed, same as the unvented cylinder i had never seen such a abortion of pipe work but again they passed, most of my knowledge came from the chap i worked for, we did everything from commercial to domestic, solar panels, treatment plants, lot of unvented cylinders and gas boilers, we did do a few log burners connected to cylinders problem is i probably didn't take as much notice as i should have done and he is no longer with us to ask,
completely useless asking any of the plumbers on site as the wouldn't have a clue ,
im not going to fit anything till iam 100% sure its safe just need a bit of help with the design, i know its not the best way but that's what i have to work with for now,
Thanks

Yeah. I see where you are coming from. This site looks moderately interesting. Would suggest if you are going to pursue this line of thought, you have a read on this Useful Guide: Boiler stoves & central heating PLUS LINK TO BEST BOILER STOVES - https://www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk/products/useful-guide-air-vent-boiler-stoves-centra-heating (note the article on heat sink radiators shows how you can have a heat sink without a cylinder) and consider your cylinder to be a secondary use of the heat as you cannot rely on anything that is on a drop. Then do a proper sketch and go through the install by non-competent person and notify to Building Control so it's checked by someone who, while they may have read it in a textbook, should at least have enough concern for his own backside that he won't sign it off until he (or she) is 100% satisfied it is safe. It's not a terribly expensive route to take.

 

[SimonG]

SimonG has the nickname Mr Shouty. He has his own way of communicating and in this case he certainly got his point across. I suppose my attitude is somewhat different as you need qualifications to do this that and the other on a heating system, but none at all to work on the brakes on your van.

Well... now you mention it 😉

Not entirely true, but depends where you are. Anywhere near Machynlleth, there are LOADS of people installing woodburners with backboilers partly due to the influence of the Centre for Alternative Technology over the years. You could try seeing who is installing woodburners as many of them will have some idea about solid fuel wet systems. Or try contacting the solid fuel association? In fairness, I have seen a professionally-installed system where someone ran a Fortic type cylinder off a woodburner (direct without a coil) which would have been okay in a soft water area, but then they also added a steel radiator which airlocked every time the household lit the stove, so I do agree a householder needs to check that professional installers know their trade.

Yeah. Gas Safe installers aren't always the best plumbers. It would be better in some respects if the two trades were either totally combined or totally separated. Though, if we follow your thinking about the 'old boys' and experience, he's probably been installing gas pipes like that for 30 years and yet to have one leak. My own house has a gas pipe built into a brick wall and it's been like that since 1988, and possibly earlier. It's wrong but textbook says it's illegal, experience says it still works and gas installers who have visited the property say it's running under grandfather rights so long as it isn't leaking.

I can understand why you may have trouble finding good installers - I personally like the one-to-one contact with customers and dislike the fact that many builders underestimate the cost of plumbing and then push for sub-standard work so they can fit within their budget, need jobs done quickly and then postpone the day before you're supposed to start work, and the fact that in my experience they are the worst payers which has put me off rather - in fact I now refuse to work for anyone but the end customer (I may not be the only one?). Plenty of direct work for homeowners, so I'm not available for builders and I know many others in my situation are backlogged with work and would struggle to fit work for builders in. Very sad for builders who might be excellent customers that they are probably tarred with the same brush. Perhaps you just need to bit the bullet and employ directly (if that's an option, which I'm assuming it isn't else you'd have already done it)?


Not legally required!

Not required... if the washing machine instructions state backflow protection is integrated in the machine and WRAS approved hoses are used to connect. In practice, I always fit check valves because the person installing the machine generally doesn't understand this and two valves are better than none if one is required.


And are under pressure to lift pass rates, even if they are council-owned because low pass rates suggest bad teachers or taking on the wrong students (even when they may also mean the college actually rightly fails those who shouldn't pass). The actual problem is that the NVQ system has very low hurdles and you can legitimately pass while knowing very little.

You don't need a teaching degree to teach NVQ plumbing, but being able to teach and being able to do are different skill sets. Some people can do the job but couldn't teach for toffee. And actually, I know some old boys who still use lead solder on mains water because 'it's better' (which may be the case, but it's also illegal), don't understand how to flush out a new heating system properly and then blame the new boilers because the heat exchangers block up 'new boilers aren't reliable' they say... but their competition installs boilers that ARE reliable which suggests the problem is them and not the boilers. Sometimes experienced people spend their lives improving and learning, and sometimes they just keep doing the same thing they were taught as apprentices - it's not the same for all people.


Yeah. I see where you are coming from. This site looks moderately interesting. Would suggest if you are going to pursue this line of thought, you have a read on this Useful Guide: Boiler stoves & central heating PLUS LINK TO BEST BOILER STOVES - https://www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk/products/useful-guide-air-vent-boiler-stoves-centra-heating (note the article on heat sink radiators shows how you can have a heat sink without a cylinder) and consider your cylinder to be a secondary use of the heat as you cannot rely on anything that is on a drop. Then do a proper sketch and go through the install by non-competent person and notify to Building Control so it's checked by someone who, while they may have read it in a textbook, should at least have enough concern for his own backside that he won't sign it off until he (or she) is 100% satisfied it is safe. It's not a terribly expensive route to take.

Cheers RIC.

I call it how I see it. Too many feckwits out there.

 

[john5711]

Thanks Ric for the web site link,
on the check valves, washing machines the buyers fit them self, dish washers are fitted severn Trent inspectors are still wanting check valves on dish washers

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks Ric for the web site link,
on the check valves, washing machines the buyers fit them self, dish washers are fitted severn Trent inspectors are still wanting check valves on dish washers

I agree with Severn Trent. Since we don't know what brand of machine will be fitted (and assuming most people fitting the machines won't know about check valves or the Water Regulations), I prefer to err on the safer side too.

Interestingly, John Lewis fitted a washing machine in my house while I was abroad. The machine does not incorporate backflow protection, and the (German) manufacturer did provide a screw-on check valve the installers could have used when connecting to the appliance valve. John Lewis did not fit the supplied check valve, yet I fail to see how the installers could possibly have known that I had fitted one to the pipework upstream of the appliance valve, given that the pipework is entirely hidden behind a cupboard. In theory, this was a professional installation.