Should / Would you charge for a repair not completed?

[chris watkins]

This seems to becoming more & more of an issue recently, with customers often paying £££££££'s for a repair that has not been repaired !!
I would not make a charge for work carried out by me that did not rectify the problem that I was called there to correct, why would you ?

We are all learning & I accept that it is not possible to get it right every time but why should the customer have to pay because I don't know ??

I can just about understand with something like a PCB which is both none returnable & difficult to be 100% sure that it is the problem but then would you not just charge the cost of the board not the labour if it did not do the trick.

What do you do or charge for ??

 

[chris watkins]

As if to highlight my case, this one has come back again today - a company has taken money & still not fixed the problem. How do they do it ????
http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/plumbing-forum/41396-banging-pipes-help.html#post460233

 

[Gray0689]

Couse there is a lot of cowboys about

 

[chris watkins]

Couse there is a lot of cowboys about

OK but why do so many customers pay up ? "I asked you to come here to fix my boiler & you have fitted a fan, a pump, a PCB & it is still not working & you want to leave now cos you have run out of ideas, Oh by the way here is the £560 in settlement of your bill" Thank you very much for not fixing it !!!!!!!
I just wish I had the front (no I don't, I want to sleep at night)

 

[Gray0689]

Because they don't care

 

[WaterTight]

depends if you work on a no fix no fee basis. if you have an agreement in advance that your attempts are chargable i don't see a problem. i do it now and then when alarm bells ring that it could be a mish.

 

[Rickster123]

I have only ever charged for a completed repair. It's the chance I think you have to take. I always look at it that if I were the customer I wouldn't be happy to pay money for a repair that hasn't solved the problem.
Too many people throw parts at a boiler as a random guess.

 

[jase158]

It's hard.

If I am there for 3 hours and cant fix i usually charge 1 hour and say I will help source a solution and get back to them.
If I go and replace part, seems like it is working then when you leave it stops, then I dont charge for call back.
If I dont do anything then I dont charge anything.

 

[jase158]

But you should charge for diagnosis as this is why they have called you, but only take payment when fixed.

 

[chris watkins]

What other type of business would work like this i.e. pay but I have not fixed the problem ?
& yes I understand WaterTight on those odd occasions when you know you are walking into a mine field but as a rule I don't.

 

[jase158]

And remember this is a forum, they will say "plumber has left it broke" which actually means "my mate has not been able to fix it" which stops the comments like "get a plumber in to fix it"

 

[Keefy]

I clear drains and was wondering recently, after a really tough job which I was about to give up on just before I unblocked it - if I ever have a call out to ublock a drain but fail with my rods and need to call in a jetter would it be unethical of me to still charge for my attempts?

 

[chris watkins]

If were just the case jase, unfortunately I get reports almost daily of engineers going to site to find piles of parts which have been thrown at boilers or cylinders cos the people they have had in before just do not know what they are about. I though it was just a many London thing but it seems wide spread ????

 

[iain85]

What other type of business would work like this i.e. pay but I have not fixed the problem ? & yes I understand WaterTight on those odd occasions when you know you are walking into a mine field but as a rule I don't.

Divorce Lawyers? : )

 

[TBServices]

I clear drains and was wondering recently, after a really tough job which I was about to give up on just before I unblocked it - if I ever have a call out to ublock a drain but fail with my rods and need to call in a jetter would it be unethical of me to still charge for my attempts?

No, because you COULD have called in the jetter from the word go, but you tried to save them some coin with the rods IMHO.

 

[Keefy]

No, because you COULD have called in the jetter from the word go, but you tried to save them some coin with the rods IMHO.

That's the answer I was hoping for. I mean some blockages will shift with a few stabs while others can take ages, obviously when you succeed you remind them how much you've saved by not getting a jetting firm in.

 

[chris watkins]

I clear drains and was wondering recently, after a really tough job which I was about to give up on just before I unblocked it - if I ever have a call out to ublock a drain but fail with my rods and need to call in a jetter would it be unethical of me to still charge for my attempts?

I would say not (& I use to do drain clearing with rods & jetting) so long as you tell them before hand, many because the jetting machines are a specialist piece of kit for which the charges are much higher.
The trick is (experience again) to try to clear it for the right amount of time before calling in the big boys. Hour or two fine, all day not !! Have you cut a deal with a local jetting firm so you can call them in if you need to so that you can both make some money ? That might be another way Keefy.

 

[chris watkins]

Divorce Lawyers? : )

They offer advice only! & not to fix your wife for the fee. :broken_heart:

 

[Keefy]

Have you cut a deal with a local jetting firm so you can call them in if you need to so that you can both make some money ?

Not yet but it's something I'm looking into, best do it soon because I don't want to look a numpty come the day by looking clueless then quietly saying - "DynoRod?"

 

[chris watkins]

Why you move my thread ? It was getting lots of views shouldn't customers see, I might help them say NO I am not going to pay the cow boys ?

 

[jase158]

What other type of business would work like this i.e. pay but I have not fixed the problem ?

Solicitors charge for each hour they talk to you,
Accountants do your accounts but cant guarantee that you wont be investigated
Tesco, dont guarantee the food your eating is the right food
politicians dont guarantee there policy is in your benefit (yet we pay them millions)
Water companies dont guarantee they will provide you water 24/7 365 days a year
electrical companies (dont guarantee they will supply power 24/7 365 days a year)
broadband providers just replace your modem rather then fix it
Phone suppliers dont guarantee to fix your line should it go wrong (actually got told to switch off and back on by virgin and when it doesnt work they will send an engineer out in 2 weeks)
psychologists, marriage counselors and massagers, none of them can guarantee to fix problem.
consultants, only consult, dont fix anything.
My brother is a computer engineer and charges for telling somebody the problem over the phone

As plumbers we are expected to fix things immediately and know everything about ever appliance,

We should all own up if we havent got a clue but we should also be paid for our knowledge as well as our skills

 

[Mike Jackson]

I went to look at two jobs on Saturday, couldn't fix them so didn't charge. They were both boilers beyond economical repair. I'm pricing to swap them but I may not get the jobs but how can I charge to walk in and say it's had it?

 

[R1CKY]

No, I don't charge if I can't fix it. Its risky with boilers, especially those that seem to be showing PCB faults. Its not so bad if breakdowns are your only line of work as you're likely to find a use for a part you've incorrectly diagnosed, but if you're like me and only doing one or two breakdowns a month, your stuck with a part you're likely to never, ever use again!

I'm pretty good on boiler breakdowns, but you always get a job where you're not 100% sure what the problem is, it is at that point I give them the customer a choice to let me go ahead and fit the part or get the manufacturer in to repair it!

 

[michael c]

Im just starting to learn fault finding and repair so i charge a customer 1 hour labour plus parts if i fix as i do take longer to diagnose and fix the problem so not fair for me to charge the same hourly as someone more experienced. If im not 100% i will ask advice and inform the customer that i have done this so they know there is more than 1 opinion on the job.
I'm lucky to have diamond gas helping me at the min though, saved my bum yesterday after i fixed a pilot light and the gas valve failed when i tried to turn back on

 

[hammers4spanner]

Garages charge if they cant fix round my way , well garages that i know !!

Imho there is no money in repairs you turn up spend say hour diagnosing then order part (which will turn out that they ordered wrong one) . Then pick part up next day on occasions return to job and cust never wants to pay much anyways which in turn sucks the life out of installs i am doing .

stuff repairs unless i am doing them for H/A's then i can potter along and still get paid

 

[Rickster123]

Garages charge if they cant fix round my way , well garages that i know !!

Imho there is no money in repairs you turn up spend say hour diagnosing then order part (which will turn out that they ordered wrong one) . Then pick part up next day on occasions return to job and cust never wants to pay much anyways which in turn sucks the life out of installs i am doing .

stuff repairs unless i am doing them for H/A's then i can potter along and still get paid

A good friend of mine works for himself and only does service and breakdowns. He's fantastic at fault finding but that only comes with time. He worked for the council for around 15 years and was able to learn and take chances with parts. He makes a great living and his hands aren't cut to ribbons and his back is still in one piece! If I had my time again I'd like to work with a breakdown guy for half of my apprenticeship.
Try not to walk away from a boiler breakdown as they will often lead to a replacement and regular future servicing.

 

[Millsy 82]

I went to look at two jobs on Saturday, couldn't fix them so didn't charge. They were both boilers beyond economical repair. I'm pricing to swap them but I may not get the jobs but how can I charge to walk in and say it's had it?

Youve gone in there though and have to travel there and then look at the boiler so therefore you should charge them then say if I do the install I will knock it off the price something like that. You have taken the trouble to do it saved them some money and lost yourself some. Makes no sense to me.

 

[Millsy 82]

I went out to a boiler tested it no power getting to fan trace it back found pcb at fault. Swap pcb now got power getting to fan but fan shot. Are you telling me I shouldnt charge for a PCB as that didnt fix the fault but was still faulty.

Every now and then (Not that often though thank god) 1 Part will go and kill another on the way but you have to replace the first to get to the point to test the other.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Youve gone in there though and have to travel there and then look at the boiler so therefore you should charge them then say if I do the install I will knock it off the price something like that. You have taken the trouble to do it saved them some money and lost yourself some. Makes no sense to me.

It's called customer service. If I come in at a slightly higher price on the swaps they may still go for me because they now know that I'm a reasonable person. In reality I've not spent much more time than I would have going round to have a look to price up the boiler swaps anyway.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I agree with millsy you go there at your cost so charge them for it , cant see it making any difference regarding cust service if you have already been there all that happens is that cust will take advantage of your generous nature .Contract works money in bank home by four with ma slippers on

 

[Nostrum]

I went out to a boiler tested it no power getting to fan trace it back found pcb at fault. Swap pcb now got power getting to fan but fan shot. Are you telling me I shouldnt charge for a PCB as that didnt fix the fault but was still faulty.

Every now and then (Not that often though thank god) 1 Part will go and kill another on the way but you have to replace the first to get to the point to test the other.

Thats different, anyway you just forgot to check the fuse on the PCB ... 🙂

 

[chris watkins]

I went out to a boiler tested it no power getting to fan trace it back found pcb at fault. Swap pcb now got power getting to fan but fan shot. Are you telling me I shouldnt charge for a PCB as that didnt fix the fault but was still faulty.

Did you then supply & install a new fan & get the boiler running again ???? If so you charged them for the repair & the cost of the PCB & Fan all good ! Whats the problem ??
It's the people that fit the PCB boiler still not working but then say don't know but I want some money that get me. :frown2:

 

[woodsy]

I went to look at two jobs on Saturday, couldn't fix them so didn't charge. They were both boilers beyond economical repair. I'm pricing to swap them but I may not get the jobs but how can I charge to walk in and say it's had it?

I have to agree that i find the above slightly bizarre as in my neck of the woods you would lose alot of money. Your knowledge and time is a very valuable commodity and to give it away for what ifs is not good practice. I'm all for being fair and giving a good customer service but why not make a charge for the diagnosis with the offer to refund if the work is taken up. loads of people always willing to take up something for nothing.

 

[Mike Jackson]

So I walk in, say your boilers knackered that'll be £50 please do I? I was in the first place for 5 minutes. Second one was an existing customer so I'm more confident in getting the swap. Apart from that a lot of people operate a no fix no fee service so how is this any different?

 

[hammers4spanner]

So I walk in, say your boilers knackered that'll be £50 please do I? I was in the first place for 5 minutes. Second one was an existing customer so I'm more confident in getting the swap. Apart from that a lot of people operate a no fix no fee service so how is this any different?

I would they have paid for your advice on updating a boiler , like you say you can knock it off if you get upgrade if not still earned money.Like i said imo not much money in repairs these days to many have a go heroes round these parts .

 

[chris watkins]

I have to agree that i find the above slightly bizarre as in my neck of the woods you would lose alot of money. Your knowledge and time is a very valuable commodity and to give it away for what ifs is not good practice. I'm all for being fair and giving a good customer service but why not make a charge for the diagnosis with the offer to refund if the work is taken up. loads of people always willing to take up something for nothing.

Who is saying anything about giving it away, if you want my knowledge, skills & experience to diagnose your problems then you will have to pay!, on that you are absolutely correct (unless I am on here & choose to give it away) although walking in & telling them there boiler needs replacing, I think is often used as an excuse for "I don't really know what is wrong" but hay, its getting on a bit, do you know these boilers don't last now days & I really could do with a boiler swop for next week cos it will pay better than this.
This I can deal with to a greater extent, its the pile of parts & still the thing is not working & "oh you are the 2,3,4,5, plumber though has had a look" that gets me & they have paid-up. Amazing !!!!!

 

[hammers4spanner]

I'm moving where you are chris if you get paid for chucking parts at boilers , be lucky to get paid at all in devon!!

 

[cr0ft]

For me, if I misdiagnose a faulty part then that's my problem. If I'm not 100% sure after testing everything I will tell the customer it's one of a few options and start with the cheapest part and work up. It's very rare I'm not sure what part is wrong though.

I've actually stopped doing repairs of taps etc because of this problem. If I am unable to repair a tap (perhaps because it's seized up completely or something) from a business perspective I should charge for this as I have attempted to. I don't feel comfortable doing it though. I also don't feel comfortable working for nothing so I don't do tap repairs, instead I tell the customer I can fit a new one within my minimum labour charge of 1 hour and steer them down that road. If a customer is too tight/poor to replace a tap then sadly they aren't a particularly good business prospect.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Who is saying anything about giving it away, if you want my knowledge, skills & experience to diagnose your problems then you will have to pay!, on that you are absolutely correct (unless I am on here & choose to give it away) although walking in & telling them there boiler needs replacing, I think is often used as an excuse for "I don't really know what is wrong" but hay, its getting on a bit, do you know these boilers don't last now days & I really could do with a boiler swop for next week cos it will pay better than this.
This I can deal with to a greater extent, its the pile of parts & still the thing is not working & "oh you are the 2,3,4,5, plumber though has had a look" that gets me & they have paid-up. Amazing !!!!!

Why does it get you ???? I don't understand your point ! You are providing quality services to your customers according toy your statement , and why you getting bad vibe cos others don't ?

 

[chris watkins]

Why does it get you ???? I don't understand your point ! You are providing quality services to your customers according toy your statement , and why you getting bad vibe cos others don't ?

Now its my turn not to get it ? I think we may have our wires crossed Safe, cos I am sure you would not condone people throwing parts at a boiler break down which do not fix the problem then taking money before leaving !! That has been my point all through the thread.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I think the magic words here are 'it maybe the fan' or 'maybe the pcb' take a leaf out of the boiler manufactureres book as they never offer dead cert advice they always cover their back end . Even whenn you phone them up you get a statement about not guarantee of advice.

The big problem here is that the cust expects it to be fixed no matter what you turn up click your fingers and hey presto repair done .It happens mis diagnostic so you need to fire it back to the cust just in case imho.

what i have noticed tho is of recent months is more and more have a go heroes trying boiler repairs as i have turned up to price boiler changes and noticed half a dozen boiler parts laying by boiler only to be infoirmed on inquisition ' bought this of ebay and tried it but never worked' so on so on

 

[R1CKY]

It's called customer service. If I come in at a slightly higher price on the swaps they may still go for me because they now know that I'm a reasonable person. In reality I've not spent much more time than I would have going round to have a look to price up the boiler swaps anyway.

I'm with you on this one Mike, I've been to a few boilers that are beyond economical repair and I don't charge if that is the case. I've ended up doing a few boiler changes through this method and has led to more work of the back of this.

I'm willing to spend a few quid in diesel and lose half hours pay if it potentially gets me more work!

 

[peteheat]

Solicitors charge for each hour they talk to you,
Accountants do your accounts but cant guarantee that you wont be investigated
Tesco, dont guarantee the food your eating is the right food
politicians dont guarantee there policy is in your benefit (yet we pay them millions)
Water companies dont guarantee they will provide you water 24/7 365 days a year
electrical companies (dont guarantee they will supply power 24/7 365 days a year)
broadband providers just replace your modem rather then fix it
Phone suppliers dont guarantee to fix your line should it go wrong (actually got told to switch off and back on by virgin and when it doesnt work they will send an engineer out in 2 weeks)
psychologists, marriage counselors and massagers, none of them can guarantee to fix problem.
consultants, only consult, dont fix anything.
My brother is a computer engineer and charges for telling somebody the problem over the phone

As plumbers we are expected to fix things immediately and know everything about ever appliance,

We should all own up if we havent got a clue but we should also be paid for our knowledge as well as our skills

Jase have you ever noticed that most of the service providers you listed call themselves "Practicing Solicitors, doctors, accountants etc?

Maybe it's time as an industry that we own up and tell the public we are practicing plumbing and heating contractors, technicians, engineers whatever takes your fancy.

Simply because that is what we are.

Back in the real world it can be hard enough to get paid for your successful repairs, to be honest I wouldn't leave until I found the fault and fixed it, I'd probably crash my mind would be back at the job.

 

[nicro3]

This seems to becoming more & more of an issue recently, with customers often paying £££££££'s for a repair that has not been repaired !!
I would not make a charge for work carried out by me that did not rectify the problem that I was called there to correct, why would you ?

We are all learning & I accept that it is not possible to get it right every time but why should the customer have to pay because I don't know ??

I can just about understand with something like a PCB which is both none returnable & difficult to be 100% sure that it is the problem but then would you not just charge the cost of the board not the labour if it did not do the trick.

What do you do or charge for ??

This post is not consistent with some of your past posts on similar subjects?

 

[chris watkins]

This post is not consistent with some of your past posts on similar subjects?

A deadly combination of being contrary & dementia, so remind me, nicro3.