Installer installed undersized radiators

[diyer]

Hi,
I had a new central heating system fitted last year and always thought it was cold but because I didn't really use it, as the property was being renovated at the time, I didn't think much of it.

I've finally got round to measuring the temps this year and it's freezing! The temps are reaching a max of 12C-13C with the heating on. I found out about undersized rads and worked out the required BTUs from online BTU calculators and found out that the rads are nearly all undersized by a fair bit.

Is there anything I can do legally being that it has been over a year since the installation?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Rickster123]

Hi diyer and welcome. Can you give us some rad sizes and room sizes as examples to go on?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Not sure about the leagal bit but you should get bigger rads fitted

 

[diyer]

Hi diyer and welcome. Can you give us some rad sizes and room sizes as examples to go on?

Yep, just measured them!

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007

 

[diyer]

Not sure about the leagal bit but you should get bigger rads fitted

Yes, I will do, it just depends on how I go about it... depending on what my rights are...

 

[chris watkins]

What are the design perimeter that you have used ? room temp, outside temp, mean water temp. Do you know what the installer used ? if not write to them & ask also set out what you have found & ask them to comment / sort out, don't threaten anything at the moment.

P.S. What is the building construction ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I would have go for living room K2 ( double panel double convector )
bedrooms P+ ( double panel single convector )

about ligal bit you need to speak to solicitor I think

 

[chris watkins]

I would have go for living room K2 ( double panel double convector )
bedrooms P+ ( double panel single convector )

about ligal bit you need to speak to solicitor I think

Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!

 

[diyer]

What are the design perimeter that you have used ? room temp, outside temp, mean water temp. Do you know what the installer used ? if not write to them & ask also set out what you have found & ask them to comment / sort out, don't threaten anything at the moment.

P.S. What is the building construction ?

Not sure what you mean by design perimeter.
When I did the measurements, outside temp was 0C, inside was 10C and inside with rads on for a few hours was 12C.
The installer didn't do any calcs like that.

I've already spoken to the installer and it was only then that he came and measured the rooms and the rads. He came back and admitted that the downstairs (2 x Living room) are undersized and he'll change them for £45 each but that he reckons the upstairs (bedrooms) are fine and not willing to do anything (unless I pay full price obviously).

Construction is brick (terrace)

 

[Gray0689]

Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!

He can say it as they are undersized by some way

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!

This is referring to the bit where op is in need of more heat as he is saying that his house is not getting up to temperature !

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!

If his house is cold and rads already installed will not do the job , easiest thing will be to keep them same size and just fit K2 and P+ and remove the K1 . Just giving a suggestin to op . And why is this getting your blood boiling ?????

 

[diyer]

I would have go for living room K2 ( double panel double convector )
bedrooms P+ ( double panel single convector )

about ligal bit you need to speak to solicitor I think

Is it a solicitor job or trading standards?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I am not sure tbh !! Who has design the ch system ? who has calculated/ sized boiler and rads ? Did you have a architect or builder in charge for the job or was it all left to the plumber ?

 

[Rickster123]

Is it a solicitor job or trading standards?

I doubt you will get far with it to be honest. Better just to se the cash on larger rads. And don't use the original guy again!

 

[diyer]

I am not sure tbh !! Who has design the ch system ? who has calculated/ sized boiler and rads ? Did you have a architect or builder in charge for the job or was it all left to the plumber ?

It wasn't 'designed'. Just the gas guy having a look at the rooms then coming back a few days later with the rads. He didn't even measure the rooms!

 

[aligorgon]

Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..

 

[Gray0689]

It wasn't 'designed'. Just the gas guy having a look at the rooms then coming back a few days later with the rads. He didn't even measure the rooms!

And you thought that was the correct way and didnt question it??

 

[SafeGasInstall]

It wasn't 'designed'. Just the gas guy having a look at the rooms then coming back a few days later with the rads. He didn't even measure the rooms!

Where about are you ?

 

[diyer]

I doubt you will get far with it to be honest. Better just to se the cash on larger rads. And don't use the original guy again!

What does that bit in bold mean?

Also, surely after spending a large sum of money on central heating that doesn't heat, i.e. not fit for purpose, there must be some comeback?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

How much were you charged and what boiler did he fit you ?

 

[chris watkins]

Not sure what you mean by design perimeter.
When I did the measurements, outside temp was 0C, inside was 10C and inside with rads on for a few hours was 12C.
The installer didn't do any calcs like that.

I've already spoken to the installer and it was only then that he came and measured the rooms and the rads. He came back and admitted that the downstairs (2 x Living room) are undersized and he'll change them for £45 each but that he reckons the upstairs (bedrooms) are fine and not willing to do anything (unless I pay full price obviously).

Construction is brick (terrace)

Sorry, am I missing something here, you paid to have new radiators installed to heat the rooms & now they don't he is asking you to pay for bigger ones. ??? Why would you even consider this !

To be able to select a rad to heat a space you need to set some perimeter such as out side temp normally -3, inside normally 21 or 22 & what the average water temp is going to be i.e. what water temp you are going to set the boiler to (what is yours set to ? ) old days 76.5 now 60 or lower. You also need to work out how quickly the heat will be lost from the rooms so you need the know how big there are & windows doors as well as their construction (u values).

Was this guy cheap ?? if yes you now know why. Was he recommended or long established ??? if no you now know for next time.

 

[Rickster123]

What does that bit in bold mean?

Also, surely after spending a large sum of money on central heating that doesn't heat, i.e. not fit for purpose, there must be some comeback?

Sorry my iPad had one of its helpful moments there it should read : better to just spend the cash on larger rads. What paperwork did you have? Written quote with rad sizes? Written invoice and receipt for payment made? What guarantee did you get?

 

[WHPES]

You can get an approximate idea of the output your rooms need using this application here:

Radcalcs radiator btu sizing site

You can look up the output of your existing rads from the manufacturers website.

Sometimes it's possible to upgrade from singles to doubles etc.

Always better to go for oversize than undersize radiators (says me shivering in my living room because I made do with a left over radiator cos I was too tight to part with cash for a bigger new one :tounge_smile: )

 

[mountainman]

Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..

Solicitors make similar mistakes all the time and charge their customers again to put rings right.

 

[diyer]

Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..

I can just about understand the charge £45 for the downstairs rads, where he admits the mistake, as that is just the upgrade cost of a single to a double. But he's saying the upstairs are fine as they are and have to pay full price if i want to go from single to double.

And you thought that was the correct way and didnt question it??

I've never had CH installed before and didn't know better. The guy was Gas Safe so there is a bit more added trust.

Where about are you ?

Why? Not sure I want to say in case the guy is on these forums...

 

[Gray0689]

I think you be better to get a decent plumber in to check it all out as your installer sounds a muppet
And gas safe only means he is legal to work on gas nothing else

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I understand , but if he was here he would have or he will click on straight away !!!
I don't understand how is he going to change a 1000/600 k1 to a 1000/600 k2 for a total of £45 ????

 

[michael c]

safe gas is only asking your location so we can recommend a forum member to you to price up upgrades or give a second opinion. In this case without doing the calcs it may be that your upstairs rads are adequate but are losing excessive heat to downstairs rooms. I would ask to see a break down of the guys heat loss calculations for each room to show you exactly what rads you should have.
On principle i wouldn't want to pay more as you paid and installed trust in his professional opinion. However, it is worth considering it would be a lengthy and difficult process to take the guy through the courts for larger rads.
I would advise getting a second recommended engineer to inspect your system, however, as if he has undersized the rads i would be consious over were else he has cut corners. Remeber an installation is only as good as the installer.

 

[diyer]

How much were you charged and what boiler did he fit you ?

About £2.5k and I chose the ideal logic+

Sorry, am I missing something here, you paid to have new radiators installed to heat the rooms & now they don't he is asking you to pay for bigger ones. ??? Why would you even consider this !

To be able to select a rad to heat a space you need to set some perimeter such as out side temp normally -3, inside normally 21 or 22 & what the average water temp is going to be i.e. what water temp you are going to set the boiler to (what is yours set to ? ) old days 76.5 now 60 or lower. You also need to work out how quickly the heat will be lost from the rooms so you need the know how big there are & windows doors as well as their construction (u values).

Was this guy cheap ?? if yes you now know why. Was he recommended or long established ??? if no you now know for next time.

See post #26 for the reasoning regarding downstairs rads. I don't want to accept the upstairs rooms rads, that's why I'm on here asking for advice.

The guy was competitive and relatively established I think but still Gas Safe. Wasn't recommended though as I was new to the area.

Sorry my iPad had one of its helpful moments there it should read : better to just spend the cash on larger rads. What paperwork did you have? Written quote with rad sizes? Written invoice and receipt for payment made? What guarantee did you get?

I think the only quote I had was by text. I do have a written invoice but it doesn't show the rad sizes and paid by cheque. There was a one year guarantee which has expired.

 

[Gray0689]

Honestly I believe you will get nowhere now to long a time frame
As said if you say your area there may be a forum member that could sort it out for you

 

[SafeGasInstall]

That explains it all !!! £2.6k for a full ch

 

[diyer]

I understand , but if he was here he would have or he will click on straight away !!!
I don't understand how is he going to change a 1000/600 k1 to a 1000/600 k2 for a total of £45 ????

He's going to do it without charging me labour. Only for downstairs, not upstairs.

 

[lame plumber]

around half of what youd have to pay me, so in my opinion you didnt pay enough to get a decent job done! monkeys and peanuts come to mind. Best to put the other 2.5k towards finishing the job properly and forget the legal battle you canyt afford in the long term.

 

[diyer]

safe gas is only asking your location so we can recommend a forum member to you to price up upgrades or give a second opinion. In this case without doing the calcs it may be that your upstairs rads are adequate but are losing excessive heat to downstairs rooms. I would ask to see a break down of the guys heat loss calculations for each room to show you exactly what rads you should have.
On principle i wouldn't want to pay more as you paid and installed trust in his professional opinion. However, it is worth considering it would be a lengthy and difficult process to take the guy through the courts for larger rads.
I would advise getting a second recommended engineer to inspect your system, however, as if he has undersized the rads i would be consious over were else he has cut corners. Remeber an installation is only as good as the installer.

No, I've worked it out and the upstairs are also undersized.

As I said, the installer did no assessments beforehand so no such thing as a heat loss calculation..

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Did he do the ch in plastic ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Just another thing I am sure your installer is not a member of this forum !

 

[diyer]

Did he do the ch in plastic ?

Some of the pipes were plastic, yes. I think all of the pipes under the floor are. All the visible pipes are copper.

Just another thing I am sure your installer is not a member of this forum !

How come you're sure?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I am sure none of the regular plumbers will charge £2.6 to putt full ch system !

 

[Rickster123]

How many quotes did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

 

[michael c]

No, I've worked it out and the upstairs are also undersized.

As I said, the installer did no assessments beforehand so no such thing as a heat loss calculation..

He is now saying that upstairs are not undersized and should provide you with heat loss calculations to do this. Ironically the heat loss calcs you say you have done you mentioned using the inner temp as 10 degrees, the calc should be based on the ideal temp as opposed to actual temp. So if you have done it the way you have indicated the size you worked out could also be undersized and yet your calculations still tell you you need larger rads than provided.

 

[lame plumber]

How many hotels did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

he went for the B&B option then changed his mind and camped🙂

 

[diyer]

I am sure none of the regular plumbers will charge £2.6 to putt full ch system !

Maybe not regular but...

How many hotels did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

Your ipad playing up again? 😉 It was very competitive though it wasn't the cheapest and it wasn't that far out from the average and he had a lot of good feedback from one of them tradesman website things so I wasn't overly concerned.

 

[lame plumber]

now we understand where you got him from ,compare the monkey .com!

 

[Rickster123]

Maybe not regular but...



Your ipad playing up again? 😉 It was very competitive though it wasn't the cheapest and it wasn't that far out from the average and he had a lot of good feedback from one of them tradesman website things so I wasn't overly concerned.

Haha no that was the red wine! Sorry! Far to cheap for a quality install in my opinion. That said there is no excuse for poor quality workmanship. Hope you get it sorted.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

You should tell all the people you know never ever to use plumbers from them trusted web sites ......

 

[plumber0808]

Get someone else to sort the work out, post the job on here.
I think you will have to move on from the problem the installer has given you.
how can you not measure a room and be able to fit a radiator?

by the time you get a independent opinion, go through a solicitor where is it going to go and at what cost, both money and stress.

 

[diyer]

He is now saying that upstairs are not undersized and should provide you with heat loss calculations to do this. Ironically the heat loss calcs you say you have done you mentioned using the inner temp as 10 degrees, the calc should be based on the ideal temp as opposed to actual temp. So if you have done it the way you have indicated the size you worked out could also be undersized and yet your calculations still tell you you need larger rads than provided.

My head hurts.

You should tell all the people you know never ever to use plumbers from them trusted web sites ......

So where do you go if you have no recommendations and have just moved into a new area??

Haha no that was the red wine! Sorry! Far to cheap for a quality install in my opinion. That said there is no excuse for poor quality workmanship. Hope you get it sorted.

Get someone else to sort the work out, post the job on here.
I think you will have to move on from the problem the installer has given you.
how can you not measure a room and be able to fit a radiator?

by the time you get a independent opinion, go through a solicitor where is it going to go and at what cost, both money and stress.

Yeah, it looks like the feedback from you guys is that it's not worth pursuing further. To be honest, that's where I was heading to as at least he has offered to do some of the work without labour charge. If he hadn't I would have definitely gone further with it.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Could have knock on neighbours and ask them , could have gone to the local pub , local shop , lockal plumbing shop could have gone on google and get idea who is your lockal plumber and get few quotes , and get to meet the plumbers in person !
You had it done cheap cheap , will say get some one in to upsize your rads and delete that builders number from your phone

 

[lame plumber]

what do you think he'll do working for no reward, a decent job!

 

[diyer]

For you guys that do it, how much would you roughly charge to change from a single to a double (same size) labour only?

Also, where is the best place to buy (non trade only) cheap rads?

 

[jase158]

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007

Living room 7000 btu
bed 1 6000 btu
bed 2 5000 btu
without calculating walls/ windows/ insulation etc.

 

[jase158]

For you guys that do it, how much would you roughly charge to change from a single to a double (same size) labour only?

Also, where is the best place to buy (non trade only) cheap rads?

where are you based?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

put a request here [DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL] for someone local to you who can come and advise you

 

[plumber0808]

Get some prices for the work, I would get labour & rads price.
the installer can probably get cheaper rads and offer a guarantee against what he does. I do not give guarantees on anything I have not supplied.
if you have it done again you want it done correctly.
post it up in the forum and somebody will help you out.

 

[Destroyer2813]

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

 

[SafeGasInstall]

If you want to get the rads your self I am sure your buddy will fit them for you !
If you want a profesional do as Steve b say list your location and you will hear from a profesional plumber who will come an survey job for you !

 

[jase158]

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

why do you say that? think this should be a seperate thread but surely made of same metal and come with 10 year guarantee (which merchants dont have). but nearly £30 cheaper per rad, so curious why you dont recommend them!

 

[diyer]

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007

Living room 7000 btu
bed 1 6000 btu
bed 2 5000 btu
without calculating walls/ windows/ insulation etc.

Wow those are a lot higher than my calcs are suggesting

Mine is
Living room: 5000 btu
bed 1 3700 btu
bed 2 3000 btu

where are you based?

east midlands

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

Are they really that bad. I was going to get them from Screwfix but they don't have the right size. What's wrong with them?

If you want to get the rads your self I am sure your buddy will fit them for you !
If you want a profesional do as Steve b say list your location and you will hear from a profesional plumber who will come an survey job for you !

The thing is that he has offered t do some of it labour free so I have to take it, don't I?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Good night

 

[plumber0808]

I wouldn't go there again. He is probably doing this over and over to customers similar to you.
bin him and get the job done correct.

 

[jase158]

my calcs are oversized but better to be over then under

 

[aplombier]

Over sizing radiators can also be just as bad as under sizing as it will affect efficiency and correct temp returns of these new condensing boilers

 

[jase158]

its not just as bad as customer is warm in there own home, which surely is what we are meant to be doing as "heating engineers" however it is still bad as it will cost more then it should to heat the home.
but as someone said before this would be my estimates as i can not see window/ insulation etc.

 

[stevetheplumber]

pay peanuts get monkeys your wasting your time pursuing this legally after a year better to spend the extra for some bigger rads and treat it as one of lifes little lessons always get 3 or 4 quotes to get some idea of what the right price for a job is also always get something in writting as to what your getting for the money and what it will do once fitted

 

[Bronze_tap]

he went for the B&B option then changed his mind and camped🙂

For the first time in his life...
In the 5 pounds Argos single season sleeping bag in the current Lake District conditions (-6C, 35mph), 700m above see level on the eastern side of Skaffel Pike 🙂

Anyway, I assume that any serious user calling himself diyer should know how to do compression/threaded joints.
Have a look on the youtube, get a double convector rad(s), and have a go.
Best with good competent plumber for the first time.
And keep in mind, that plastics doesn't like high flow temperatures for long time... And the underfloor leaks may go undetected for a while...

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Over sizing radiators can also be just as bad as under sizing as it will affect efficiency and correct temp returns of these new condensing boilers

@Chris: You put a like on this comment? Oversizing allows you to lower the flow temperature and therefore minimising heat losses and maximising the gains from the latent heat.

Could someone explain to me the negative effects to expect (except customer spending more on the radiators)? As long as the oversizing is done equally I could not see negative effects at all.

 

[Gray0689]

@Chris: You put a like on this comment? Oversizing allows you to lower the flow temperature and therefore minimising heat losses and maximising the gains from the latent heat.

Could someone explain to me the negative effects to expect (except customer spending more on the radiators)? As long as the oversizing is done equally I could not see negative effects at all.

Well for one building control can and so fail new houses as not energy efficient

 

[aplombier]

It's all about energy efficiency at the boiler so it will condense efficiently and use less gas or use it better thus saving the planet . the flow and returns at the boiler must only have 10c temp difference so if the rads are too big for the boiler then the return to the boiler will be too cold and then the boiler won't condense . Which means you might as well not fit condensing boiler, as stated building regs can now make you rip it all out if they get involved. I'm not the best explainer so hope this is good enough. If you've done level3 about modern system design this should have been taught at that stage.

 

[tamz]

It's all about energy efficiency at the boiler so it will condense efficiently and use less gas or use it better thus saving the planet . the flow and returns at the boiler must only have 20ºc temp difference so if the rads are too big for the boiler then the return to the boiler will be too cold and then the boiler won't condense . Which means you might as well not fit condensing boiler, as stated building regs can now make you rip it all out if they get involved. I'm not the best explainer so hope this is good enough. If you've done level3 about modern system design this should have been taught at that stage.

You are getting things a bit back to front here.

I've also corrected a bit for you

 

[aplombier]

Defo think its 10c but going to check later.
Also what bits back to front tamz

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Defo think its 10c but going to check later.
Also what bits back to front tamz

First of all the lower the return temperature the higher the condensing effect. Anything above 70 degC has to be considered as non condensing range.
The lower the flow temperature the lesser the heat radiation part and therefore the lesser the heat losses in specific in conventional buildings with non reflective membranes, corroded ones or none at all.

The spread only influences the amount of heat distributed into the room. If you use a 55/45 design temperature the spread will obviously be 10 degC. Same on a more extreme 40/30. If you get to lower design temps you will not be able to have a great spread anymore which automatically increases your radiators beyond the increase due to the lower temperatures.

If you go for 60/40 you can keep your rads and pipes smaller but typically your heating pump has to work longer and harder as the friction will be higher. Thus can lead to not being able to use the VP modes on the hopefully A rated pump. The longer boiler run times will also increase losses through the flue. In conjunction with an oversized boiler this will be anything but green.

As far as building control goes they should then fail all surface heatings and heat pump systems? How would they be bothered by bigger and therefore more efficient radiators?
That casts a funny light on those guys waving through uncommissioned boilers being fitted to no standards and not even working.

 

[tamz]

I'll save you the trouble of looking
Older systems were based on an 11º drop. New systems on condensing boilers should be set for a 20º drop.
Condensing boilers only condense when the return temperature is below 55º. This requires oversized rads or a low flow rate and careful balancing.
Big rads that feel cool to touch and low return temperatures mean cheaper bills.

 

[tamz]

Have you got shares in Grundfos Dirk :lol:
Btw most bco's (and i'm sure we have met the same ones) couldn't tell the difference between a paraffin heater and a boiler

 

[DirksPlumbing]

I'll save you the trouble of looking
Older systems were based on an 11º drop. New systems on condensing boilers should be set for a 20º drop.
Condensing boilers only condense when the return temperature is below 55º. This requires oversized rads or a low flow rate and careful balancing.
Big rads that feel cool to touch and low return temperatures mean cheaper bills.

I should learn from you to keep things short and simple.

 

[tamz]

Cut through the bullshyt and get direct to the point is what most people understand

 

[joni os]

Stelrad literature should put this to bed. Mean water temperature / Room temperature, Difference. Means larger rads can produce required heat at lower temperature. Lower temperature means better recovery of latent heat. One of the reasons underfloor heating works well with condensing boilers. Any Building Control who think larger rads mean less efficiency should be challenged.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Have you got shares in Grundfos Dirk :lol:
Btw most bco's (and i'm sure we have met the same ones) couldn't tell the difference between a paraffin heater and a boiler

I wish I had shares with them. But then it is not exactly an exiting newcomer. Then rather Softing.

Must say I had little contact with building control in Central Scotland. I had been on new builds past Greenock and the islands. The guys there were pretty okay despite the fact you had to pribe them with a fresh coffee on arrival😉.

But the things I have come across in Central Scotland actually made me doubt seriously. Usually handed over buildings.

 

[tamz]

One of my mates is a bco with West Lothian council and i usually have a pint with him of a Friday along with a few other plumbers. We usually educate him on what to look out for (we all self certify so who cares) as he is totally clueless. He admits himself he hasn't a clue about services. Drain tests and asking for copies of the benchmarks are about his limit when it comes to plumbing and gas.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

One of my mates is a bco with West Lothian council and i usually have a pint with him of a Friday along with a few other plumbers. We usually educate him on what to look out for (we all self certify so who cares) as he is totally clueless...

Former workmate had been made to putty all plug holes in the building prior to the drain test and had to remove it afterwards again.

 

[tamz]

Probably because the numpty bco was insisting on a 100mm drain test (as on an open drain) which is near impossible on a 50mm wc trap seal (it can be done with a bit of luck if you pump it very slowly) because he knows no better. They are clowns.
If you know you are in the right argue your case with them and go over their head but when you do that you better be sure because the next guy who comes out will have read up on it.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Probably because the numpty bco was insisting on a 100mm drain test (as on an open drain) ...

Very so. That would make Mira shower trays illegal as well. At least the ones with the supplied trap. And a lot of bath traps, urinals with built in trap, some 6l and virtually all 4.5l liter toilets and and and.

By the way the mentioned building had six flats in it.

 

[tamz]

The final test should be done at 40mm as it can't be any higher than the trap seals but they want it as high as it will go
As i said they are mostly clueless clowns and they are supposed to be regulating us. They are not interested and have very little knowledge of what we do. More interest is a walk through the house for structural things which i can see the poit of.
They no longer concern me as i self cert my work so i am outwith their control even for drain tests.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

More interest is a walk through the house for structural things which i can see the point of.

But where are they when you need them. Been on a site, when I walked in I had been impressed by the extra long beam holding half of the houses roof without additional support to find its left hand side held up by an 2x2 upright.

Walked out to see the site manager (as well to request walls to hang the rads. The guy said to me that was found so when they removed the plaster board and they are not going to do anything about.

As the existing radiators were dangling on bowed brittle 10mm plaster board ready to fall of I just left the place to not be seen again. This "feature" was meant to be left as was as well.

 

[tamz]

But where are they when you need them. Been on a site, when I walked in I had been impressed by the extra long beam holding half of the houses roof without additional support to find its left hand side held up by an 2x2 upright.

Upholding and regulating standard my rse. Like all lines of work there are good and terrible and all the shades in between. Luck of the draw who comes out and even then in many cases there are the backhanders to sway there judgement and blight their vision.
Many years ago in Edinburgh it was common knowledge that it was a fiver a drain test if you were having problems with it standing (the tests were done (or not done) by an ex council plumber)

 

[chris watkins]

It sounds like it is country wide then & I though London was bad but reading you two, it just the same, back in my day there were D or S I's (drainage or sanitary inspectors) & that's all they did, so very difficult to pull the wool over their eye's.
Looking at what they sign off now days, it makes me mad.
The public's main protection & our policeman as far a cowboy workers, don't have a cue & don't care, it seems that all they want to do is take the money.
No enforcement mean the Law becomes an bum.

 

[joni os]

Lets not be unfair to building control officers. Thirty years ago Building Regs was a small book with much useful guidance. Now the document is so complex that by the time you have read it the regs will have changed and you have to go back and start at the beginning. Being required to know a little about everything means they will not be experts in a particular field. In general if treated with respect they will be open to discussion of evidence based practice and prove a valuable source of guidance on new rules. Beware of what you hope for. If they were really clued up on all the rules many plumbers would have costly claims against them for notching of floor joists in the wrong place and in the wrong manner. Electricians please also take note.

 

[SimonG]

A building control department should contain experts in all fields, it would be impossible to expect 1 individual to turn up on site and be proficient in all aspects of what needs to be signed off. We are out in the sticks so there is a lot of all, the bc know nothing about oil, things get missed and don't get picked up until you end up going out to somewhere with an issue and then explaining to the customer it's not right and needs this that and the other doing. The cust then gives it to you in the neck for trying to get extra work from the call out.
IMHO bc should send a 'team' to sign off. But that would be a perfect world.

 

[doitmyself]

Over sizing radiators can also be just as bad as under sizing as it will affect efficiency and correct temp returns of these new condensing boilers

It's not really oversizing; it's putting in the correct sized radiator, taking into account the required flow and return temperatures. The reason you have to do this is that radiator output varies with flow, return and room temperatures.

Most manufacturers' literature just quote the output according to BS EN442, which specifies temperatures of 75°C/65°C/20°C (flow, return, room). If you run the boiler at say 75°C/55°C (most boiler manufacturers now specify a 20°C differential) the radiator output will be reduced by about 15%. so you will have to install one which is about 20% larger.

Example:

A Stelrad 600 x 1000 K1 produces 1000W at 75/65/20, but only 850W at 75/55/20.
A Stelrad 600 x 1200 K1 produces 1200W at 75/65/20, but only 1025W at 75/55/20.

So if you need 1000W in a room and are running at 75/55/20 you need the 600 x 1200 rad to produce the required 1000W heat.

The rad may be physically larger, but it's not "oversized" as far as the heat is required.

 

[doitmyself]

The flow and returns at the boiler must only have 10c temp difference, so if the rads are too big for the boiler then the return to the boiler will be too cold and then the boiler won't condense . ... If you've done level3 about modern system design this should have been taught at that stage.

If that's what you were taught, then the teacher needs to go back to school as he was talking nonsense. Unless, of course, you completely misunderstood what he was saying.

 

[chris watkins]

Lets not be unfair to building control officers. Thirty years ago Building Regs was a small book with much useful guidance. Now the document is so complex that by the time you have read it the regs will have changed and you have to go back and start at the beginning. Being required to know a little about everything means they will not be experts in a particular field. In general if treated with respect they will be open to discussion of evidence based practice and prove a valuable source of guidance on new rules. Beware of what you hope for. If they were really clued up on all the rules many plumbers would have costly claims against them for notching of floor joists in the wrong place and in the wrong manner. Electricians please also take note.

A building control department should contain experts in all fields, it would be impossible to expect 1 individual to turn up on site and be proficient in all aspects of what needs to be signed off. We are out in the sticks so there is a lot of all, the bc know nothing about oil, things get missed and don't get picked up until you end up going out to somewhere with an issue and then explaining to the customer it's not right and needs this that and the other doing. The cust then gives it to you in the neck for trying to get extra work from the call out.
IMHO bc should send a 'team' to sign off. But that would be a perfect world.

I am expected to know a lot across a wide range of areas of the industry I work in, it's my job, its what I get payed to do. I am sure the individual BCO do their best & are not supported by there local counsels with either training or funding but that still don't help me & my customers who pay good money to be told "I don't know anything about these systems but if it an't blown up by now it is likely the be OK" oh & by the way here is your bit of paper that says it it approved / registered.
joni I don't go around cutting oversized notches in floor joist so would not have to worry about any claims. I sincerely hope that those who do carry out this dangerous illegal practise would be dealt with in some way don't you ????????????

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Do you always cut notches in the right places though, thats the hard part imho

 

[chris watkins]

Do you always cut notches in the right places though, thats the hard part imho

Oh yes, I know my cut zones all right.

 

[joni os]

No offence meant Chris, didn't mean you to take it personal. But like Gasman says not only at the right depth but in the right place.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

was it 1/7 only and 150mm away from the walls

 

[chris watkins]

No offence meant Chris, didn't mean you to take it personal. But like Gasman says not only at the right depth but in the right place.

No offence taken nor did I think it was solely aimed at me & you are both perfectly correct important to cut em in the right place.

 

[longboat]

around half of what youd have to pay me, so in my opinion you didnt pay enough to get a decent job done! monkeys and peanuts come to mind. Best to put the other 2.5k towards finishing the job properly and forget the legal battle you canyt afford in the long term.

Five grand for a two up two down! When did you start working for brittish gas?

 

[doitmyself]

I had a new central heating system fitted last year and always thought it was cold but because I didn't really use it, as the property was being renovated at the time, I didn't think much of it.

I've finally got round to measuring the temps this year and it's freezing! The temps are reaching a max of 12C-13C with the heating on. I found out about undersized rads and worked out the required BTUs from online BTU calculators and found out that the rads are nearly all undersized by a fair bit.

So this is really the first time that you have been able to check if the heating works correctly and found that it doesn't, as the rooms do not reach the required temperature. In that case it is not "fit for purpose". Nothing to do with breaking down or developing a fault. It just doesn't do what you want it to do, i.e heat your house to an acceptable temperature.

Is there anything I can do legally being that it has been over a year since the installation?

NO need to get "legal" about it. The installer has not met the requirement that the installation is "fit for purpose", so it is his responsibility to put it right at no cost to you. How long it has been in is not really relevant as the system was "not fit" when it was installed, but you have only now become aware of this.

The obvious solution is larger radiators, which would have cost you more money if put in originally. So a sensible compromise would be to pay the additional cost for the radiators but nothing for his labour.

 

[joni os]

On the room sizes given it would require 1200:1100:and 900 BTU just to cope with heat loss through ventilation.( one and a half air changes per hour). Heat loss through fabric of building to be added to these figures. The ceiling heights suggest this is not a property built with conservation of energy foremost in its design. As others have said get in someone who understands heat loss. ( not just someone with an app. on their iphone). The good news is it is only 3 rads. but when you get this second opinion be prepared to pay for the advice, get a check on the boiler instal and you may well save problems in the future. Unfortunately many in your situation go hunting for advice on the pretext of getting quotes and when they think they have the answer, fix it at the lowest price with the clown who did the original work. If you went to A&E would you want to be treated by a doctor or the hospital porter.

 

[aplombier]

I'll save you the trouble of looking
Older systems were based on an 11º drop. New systems on condensing boilers should be set for a 20º drop.
Condensing boilers only condense when the return temperature is below 55º. This requires oversized rads or a low flow rate and careful balancing.
Big rads that feel cool to touch and low return temperatures mean cheaper bills.

Thank you tamz I did look it up and ur quite correct