Customer reversed bank transfer

[JCSPLUMBING]

Hi. Finished a bathroom last week. All went great and looked great. However the customer couldn't pay me for at least 3-4 days later for financial reasons in not sure of. So they eventually paid me and then yesterday noticed that the payment has been reversed. I thought bank transfers were safe? I've contacted them and they are now saying the toilet is leaking around the bottom of the pan and are not happy. I asked why not call me first but they are acting very shifty and wont pay me back the money. I've contacted my bank as I never authorised this payment and as far as I'm concerned it's theft to take my money. What are my options as I've never been in this situation before?
Thanks

 

[Masood]

I also thought that bank transfers were non-reversible, even if you mistakenly typed the wrong account number in.

This is worrying! What have your bank said?

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

They have frozen my details and fraud team are on it. I'm the meantime I'm over 3 grand down. Surely I'm safe as I never authorised it?

 

[hammers4spanner]

I had someone who owed me money and accidentally put it into the wrong account of a n other.

When we chatted about it he said you get a window say 6 weeks or whatever to make the claim back, maybe something like this??

 

[Masood]

you get a window say 6 weeks or whatever to make the claim back, maybe something like this??

I never knew that! Bloody hell, it's like every which way you look at it, there's a way for unscrupulous customers to screw small businesses over. I always tell people I prefer BACS transfers as cheques can be cancelled and card payments reversed. Now even BACS isn't safe..

JCS - keep us informed please mate? Would be good to know how the bank deals with this.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Will do masood. I'm going into branch today as I hate waiting on hold. I've cancelled work today to sort this mess out as my head wouldn't be into it anyway. I was sure have BACS was safe also

 

[hammers4spanner]

I never knew that! Bloody hell, it's like every which way you look at it, there's a way for unscrupulous customers to screw small businesses over. I always tell people I prefer BACS transfers as cheques can be cancelled and card payments reversed. Now even BACS isn't safe..

JCS - keep us informed please mate? Would be good to know how the bank deals with this.

From what i recall my customer contacted his bank said he transferred money into wrong account . I think the bank themselves took money back so i would imagine JCS your bank would know if your customer is trying this route.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep they can the only safe method these days is cash sorry to say

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Just been into branch and they have found out what's going on. The client has basically said that payment has been made in error and that £330 should of been paid and not £3300. My bank has disputed this and claim that it was in fact correct the first time. My funds should be in my account by the end of today. Client will not answer the phone to me. Once money has been refunded back to me it will get withdrawn and a visit to the client will be order to demand answers.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

This is so bad, you'd have sorted a leaking toilet out if it was your error/supply and they called

Glad to hear the bank sounds like they are on your side

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Just been into branch and they have found out what's going on. The client has basically said that payment has been made in error and that £330 should of been paid and not £3300. My bank has disputed this and claim that it was in fact correct the first time. My funds should be in my account by the end of today. Client will not answer the phone to me. Once money has been refunded back to me it will get withdrawn and a visit to the client will be order to demand answers.

Just turn up sweet as pie and offer to fix the leak:wink:

Bet they have the right a hole when they find you have the full money back, some people will try anything!!

 

[oz-plumber]

Just been into branch and they have found out what's going on. The client has basically said that payment has been made in error and that £330 should of been paid and not £3300. My bank has disputed this and claim that it was in fact correct the first time. My funds should be in my account by the end of today. Client will not answer the phone to me. Once money has been refunded back to me it will get withdrawn and a visit to the client will be order to demand answers.

Just hold on until the money is in your account.
Then once it is - forget the customer.

Things will only go pear shaped if you confront the customer - and probably to your detriment.

 

[WaterTight]

You could easily have an account just to receive BACS and then immediately transfer them into your real account. Reverse that, bitches!

 

[WaterTight]

Oh and sounds like the WC won't be leaking anyway, just chancers.

 

[oz-plumber]

Oh and sounds like the WC won't be leaking anyway, just chancers.

They're not chancers,

Pre meditated, deliberate actions.
They had it planned all along.

They will find out that defrauding banks will end you up in more trouble than a hell of a lot of other more serious crimes.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I just hope that it works out. What happens if the money isn't there? Will they still refund it to me? Shouldn't have to feel this way about work and if customer is going to pay or not

 

[oz-plumber]

I just hope that it works out. What happens if the money isn't there? Will they still refund it to me? Shouldn't have to feel this way about work and if customer is going to pay or not

Welcome to the real world.

I assume you quote the job
You have an invoice and a payment into you bank account for the invoice amount.

Worst case - get a Lawyer and send all your info to the client.
If they don't pay - get a Judge to decide... and on top of the invoice they will have to pay all legal expenses - for both sides.

As stated earlier - these are tried and tested scammers.
They are waiting for you to turn up at their doorstep and have a go at them.
They want you to do that and traumatise them so the police will drag you away - not them.

Once that happens, you will be 'character assassinated ' in court.

Give it a day or two and then speak to the Bank and a Lawyer if the money doesn't come through...The Bank may be able to assist you if you play your cards right.
Keep the Bank on your side

 

[hammers4spanner]

If they don't have the money to pay the full amount then how are you going to get your money??

I am chasing a couple hundred at the moment and the general advice i have had is if you can afford it then write it off ,to chase your money the legal way can be a joke for small businesses .

The lads i chatted to who went to court said it was never worth it . they agree a payment deal and ultimately fail it because they have no money.Then a few months later you still chase payment .The impression i have is that its a complete joke of a system.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Welcome to the real world.

I assume you quote the job
You have an invoice and a payment into you bank account for the invoice amount.

Worst case - get a Lawyer and send all your info to the client.
If they don't pay - get a Judge to decide... and on top of the invoice they will have to pay all legal expenses - for both sides.

As stated earlier - these are tried and tested scammers.
They are waiting for you to turn up at their doorstep and have a go at them.
They want you to do that and traumatise them so the police will drag you away - not them.

Once that happens, you will be 'character assassinated ' in court.

Give it a day or two and then speak to the Bank and a Lawyer if the money doesn't come through...The Bank may be able to assist you if you play your cards right.
Keep the Bank on your side

I didn't invoice them I just quoted and they accepted. They have a nice house,car etc and look and talk like they have money. I'm sure it will work itself out. I'm being extra cautious from here in in however. My dad has always had a problem with the banking system as a whole and warned me plenty of times about trusting people's word. Trouble is that you can't demand cash only as it's seen as a bad thing also.

 

[Chalked]

Why haven't you invoiced them? A court would not look in your favour if you didn't. Quickly do one, post date it, email, post one recorded deliverery and drop one off.

 

[mfgs]

Why haven't you invoiced them? A court would not look in your favour if you didn't. Quickly do one, post date it, email, post one recorded deliverery and drop one off.

Agreed, you really should be invoicing.

I didn't know you could reverse a bank transfer though, its good to know and something I will have to watch out for. Not that I get many problems with customers paying.

 

[rpm]

Work all done word of mouth is dangerous on a 3k job, written quote with your T&C`s and acceptance signature next time mate.

 

[Masood]

Work all done word of mouth is dangerous on a 3k job, written quote with your T&C`s and acceptance signature next time mate.

I really need to start getting some sort of acceptance signature. Also some terms and conditions. Maybe something that says "payment of the deposit indicates acceptance of these terms".

How would people on here feel about getting a set of T&Cs drawn by a lawyer that we could all use. We all do similar work so it should be fairly universal. If a 100 of us chip in, say, £20 each that would cover it (based on a quote I had from a firm of lawyers working via the FSBs. It may have included a FSB members' discount, and obviously would vary if we wanted a lot of variable clauses to tailor-make the T & Cs for our individual firms).

I know some people have very generously shared theirs but unless drawn up by a lawyer I wouldn't be sure how watertight they are.

 

[mfgs]

I really need to start getting some sort of acceptance signature. Also some terms and conditions. Maybe something that says "payment of the deposit indicates acceptance of these terms".

How would people on here feel about getting a set of T&Cs drawn by a lawyer that we could all use. We all do similar work so it should be fairly universal. If a 100 of us chip in, say, £20 each that would cover it (based on a quote I had from a firm of lawyers working via the FSBs. It may have included a FSB members' discount, and obviously would vary if we wanted a lot of variable clauses to tailor-make the T & Cs for our individual firms).

I know some people have very generously shared theirs but unless drawn up by a lawyer I wouldn't be sure how watertight they are.

Sounds like a good idea to me and certainly something I would be interested in. I have had very few payment issues since I have worked for myself, but there is no harm in taking an extra precaution to protect myself and my business.

 

[Masood]

Sounds like a good idea to me and certainly something I would be interested in. I have had very few payment issues since I have worked for myself, but there is no harm in taking an extra precaution to protect myself and my business.

Ditto mate. I've had one bad debt of £75 (touch wood) and one guy quibbling but it's a worry as I'm getting involved with bigger and more valuable jobs. I always cover materials and part of my labour cost in the deposit, but it's just one less thing to worry about...

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I've had 3 in 10 or so years of being self employed. First one had postmix in his stopcock chamber for his troubles, Childish I know but I was only 22. Second one I went to court and won as they also stole tools off me and police found them and now this one. I would definitely be interested Masood. Every job needs to be signed and t&c's agreed upon.

 

[mfgs]

Ditto mate. I've had one bad debt of £75 (touch wood) and one guy quibbling but it's a worry as I'm getting involved with bigger and more valuable jobs. I always cover materials and part of my labour cost in the deposit, but it's just one less thing to worry about...

Do you find people get funny in giving deposits? I have never taken a deposit for any job and just trust they will pay. I have always had it in my head that it looks a bit dodgy asking for money upfront and people would either think that you may do a runner with the money or that you aren't successful enough to be able to afford the materials. Not that I am aiming either of those at you, just for clarification haha. Its just how it feels to me.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

[rpm]

Doesn`t have to be pages long, think it`s best to keep it simple.

All goods supplied remain property of xxxx until full payment is received and cleared.
Late payments will result in accruing interest being added at a daily rate of x%.
Old water valves and electrical items can develop faults once supply is turned off and then on.
Upon removing *** and finding additional unforeseen costs a revised quote will be given.

And so on.

 

[plumben]

I've had 3 in 10 or so years of being self employed. First one had postmix in his stopcock chamber for his troubles, Childish I know but I was only 22. Second one I went to court and won as they also stole tools off me and police found them and now this one. I would definitely be interested Masood. Every job needs to be signed and t&c's agreed upon.

Postmix and broken glass last thing at night, and whilst your at it a few drywall screws lightly threaded into the inside edge of both tyres on the cars 😉

 

[Masood]

All goods supplied remain property of xxxx until full payment is received and cleared.

See - that's not actually enforceable. Once installed in the customer's property, it's theirs (as I understand it). If you remove them, it's criminal damage.

It's things like that, that everyone puts on their T &Cs but wouldn't stand up to a legal challenge, that I want to avoid. If I start attaching T &Cs to quotes, I want them to be solid.

 

[rpm]

Agree you can`t remove it but it is still yours until paid for, that`s the way I understand it so again agree with you wanting it water tight but is there such a thing?

 

[Leo21]

I haven't read all the above posts, and this may have already been said.

For gods sake put it in writing that you have tried to contact them to try and arrange to fix the leak. Don't leave them any excuses to make a claim against you . There probably isn't a leak anyway.

 

[Millsy 82]

Do you find people get funny in giving deposits? I have never taken a deposit for any job and just trust they will pay. I have always had it in my head that it looks a bit dodgy asking for money upfront and people would either think that you may do a runner with the money or that you aren't successful enough to be able to afford the materials. Not that I am aiming either of those at you, just for clarification haha. Its just how it feels to me.

Sorry to go off topic.

Some people don't like it but majority of people don't hesitate with it. If people do query it then I just say I'm a one man band if I get knocked for a couple of grand that will mean I can't pay my mortgage, I had one person say what if you don't turn up to which I said I'm not going to get a bad name for a grand or 2 maybe a million I might think about it and he laughed and paid the deposit.

 

[mutley racers]

See - that's not actually enforceable. Once installed in the customer's property, it's theirs (as I understand it). If you remove them, it's criminal damage.

It's things like that, that everyone puts on their T &Cs but wouldn't stand up to a legal challenge, that I want to avoid. If I start attaching T &Cs to quotes, I want them to be solid.

I am up for that. Like you also I have never had problems with non paying customers but then if I think they are dodgy I don't get back to them.

I have looked at the terms and conditions on British gases quotes and they are something to behold. A bit ott I think

 

[Best]

Paper trail is what you depend on if things go to court, so you should have quotes, invoices, letters (texts, emails or in paper). If the customer makes a complaint - like this alleged leaking toilet, be sure to politely reply to them and have proof of that, plus proof you asked to look at it and any repair work you might do later. Reason why I am saying that is the courts will find a tradesman guilty if he has been accused of leaving bad workmanship and has not produced proof of what he did to try to resolve the alleged fault.
In Small Claims courts, as far as I know, if you win and the other person refuses to pay, then you can take it further and get the money from their wages, or other property, - that's if your customer has wages or assets.
I always understood a cheque is a promise to pay and anyone withdrawing a cheque would have to have a very good reason to be allowed to not pay, - such as fraud.

 

[Best]

If you get all your money and do go back to look at the toilet, take somebody, - (doesn't have to in the trade,) with you as a witness.
Also borrow a Porsche and drive up to their door.

 

[Masood]

Do you find people get funny in giving deposits? I have never taken a deposit for any job and just trust they will pay. I have always had it in my head that it looks a bit dodgy asking for money upfront and people would either think that you may do a runner with the money or that you aren't successful enough to be able to afford the materials. Not that I am aiming either of those at you, just for clarification haha. Its just how it feels to me.

Sorry to go off topic.

Only ever had one person quibble about a deposit. It was for about 2.5K for a boiler and unvented cylinder, when I had just started out on my own. I suggested they phone the merchant with their credit card details and pay for the materials. The merchant took the payment 2.5K, and the proportion of it that was covering part of my labour, he gave me in credit on my account. So all worked out in the end.

Actually, thinking about it, I had one other person refuse a deposit. It was only a small job - straight swap of an electric shower. But she refused to give me her address, email address or even her surname. Only knew first name and a mobile number. Insisted on meeting at the rental property and I had to text her the price (obviously couldn't post or email). No way I was doing that job without payment up front!

 

[oz-plumber]

Shouldn't have to feel this way about work and if customer is going to pay or not

Get used to it.

Probably the reason I haven't had a descent nights sleep in 15 years.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Large jobs always ask for part payment when materials on site 1st day, Clause that materials belong to you until paid for, just add if not paid then a rental or hire charge of your property will be made at so much per day !

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Update.
Money is back into my account. The bank basically take it out and put it into a holding account until it's disputed. However the one who recieved the funds is in favour. If they claim the money is rightfully there's then that's it. So transfers are safe after all. Still a crap feeling with worry as it took me 3 weeks to complete and the mortgage is due on monday.

 

[Roger Welton]

Now that's sorted wait 6 months for payback 😉

Good news you got it resolved though.

 

[mfgs]

Glad you got it sorted and thanks for the update, handy to know all the info in case it ever happens to any of us.

 

[Masood]

Happy for you that you got it back, and thanks for the update. Must have been a worrying few weeks!

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Love to see the look on the customers face when the money went back out 🙂

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Me too. :19:

 

[stani]

You could always send him a receipt, thanking him for finally paying, but due to the delay there is an extra £xx interest for late payment.

 

[Masood]

Me too. :19:

Have you spoken to him since? Any explanation (apart from him being a ****)?

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

He won't answer the phone.. I've sent an email explaining that I've informed the police and that the fraud team are on it as he's lied to the bank. I've withdrawn the amount in case he tries any more funny business the the nice manager of the bank has assured me that these things cannot be reversed. So they are safe and the only thing they can try is to claim it's an error. Like i said the whole thing favours the recipient of the funds.

 

[rpm]

Everytime I have sent funds to bail out my little sis there is a message to check the details before sending as it cannot be reversed.

Glad you got what was yours JCS

 

[quality]

I would knock on their door at 7.30 tomorrow morning (Sunday) and say that your there to fix the leak

 

[WaterTight]

... without a trace of a smile and tapping your stilsons into the palm of your hand.

 

[GQuigley67]

I'm asking for a 4 grand deposit on a 10k job, but only when kitchen is on site, he didn't reply to my email when I said the 4 grand but will need to speak with him to clarify it's OK, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for deposit on jobs that size.

I never asked for deposit before on jobs but most are under 4k. I have T&C's with my quote for customers to read and sign but not sure if they are worth anything? They sound the part anyway lol

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I generally try not to ask for a deposit as most of my jobs are under 4k. I can afford a £500-£1000 materials lay on. I always ask to be paid in Stages however. If a job is 3 weeks or more I ask to be paid weekly. I enjoy the lump sum at the end generally. This could now change though

 

[Millsy 82]

If I have to spend over £300 on materials I ask for a deposit, not that I'm untrusting but a late payment or 2 could put me in financial difficulty. If the customer doesn't want to pay that is fine but I won't do the job. If they send a cheque out then that is fine as they have shown that they are happy for me to go ahead with the work and if they cancel the cheque then (according to my dad who works for a builders merchants as an accountant) they have committed fraud. So just proceed with court.

 

[Best]

If they send a cheque out then that is fine as they have shown that they are happy for me to go ahead with the work and if they cancel the cheque then (according to my dad who works for a builders merchants as an accountant) they have committed fraud. So just proceed with court.

I always understood if someone cancels a cheque, then they have broken a signed promise to pay and would highly likely have to pay later, unless for very good reason.
I guess good reason would be things like, - not receiving goods they paid for, or seriously bad work, or if within a cooling off period where they decided not to purchase something, or if the person issuing the cheque discovered they were being frauded
So there would be cases where a cancelled cheque would be fine in law.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

So you can buy a house cash via bank transfer, move in & then ask for money back via bank?

No, it's got to be something to do with the bank

I've never heard of a bank transfer being given back once in someone's account.

If you're paid via transfer then it's in your bank

If they deposited a chq it'll show a credit but may bounce weeks after

Ie. The Nigerian 419 scam

Speak to your bank

I bet the money wasn't cleared funds in your account

 

[rocketmanbkk]

If they don't have the money to pay the full amount then how are you going to get your money??

I am chasing a couple hundred at the moment and the general advice i have had is if you can afford it then write it off ,to chase your money the legal way can be a joke for small businesses .

The lads i chatted to who went to court said it was never worth it . they agree a payment deal and ultimately fail it because they have no money.Then a few months later you still chase payment .The impression i have is that its a complete joke of a system.

Yep, for low amounts it'll cost & if they can't pay do you spend more to get bailiffs?

Total shambles.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Just been into branch and they have found out what's going on. The client has basically said that payment has been made in error and that £330 should of been paid and not £3300. My bank has disputed this and claim that it was in fact correct the first time. My funds should be in my account by the end of today. Client will not answer the phone to me. Once money has been refunded back to me it will get withdrawn and a visit to the client will be order to demand answers.

I'd say once you've got your money - all of it- block the custard, never return & let them deal with the toilet leak.

I wouldn't be wasting my time wanting any answers.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

I would knock on their door at 7.30 tomorrow morning (Sunday) and say that your there to fix the leak

Then make it worse & leave

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm sure that your electronic bank transfers are the same as ours.

You have to go through steps to transfer money from your account to someone else's.
Much the same as signing a cheque.

I would be getting the bank to investigate the whole procedure, and see who authorised the refund.

There was a case over here where a person was doing the same thing, and she worked for the bank.
She got caught out and was found to be logging into the banks internal logging in setup via one of her colleagues log-in details from a previous branch she worked at.

 

[oz-plumber]

As for retribution - I wouldn't take it any further.

As far as I would be concerned the money is in my account - end of transaction.

Any defects - let them take them up with you, personally.

I know what I would say if they called me after this debarcle

 

[rpm]

If a job is 3 weeks or more I ask to be paid weekly. I enjoy the lump sum at the end generally. This could now change though

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush springs to mind here.

From a customers perspective maybe writing 2 or 3 smaller cheques is less painful than writing one large one.