Upgrading pipe sizes

[fezster]

Isn't the point of this forum to share advice and knowledge so that you're better informed when you do get somebody in? Whilst I appreciate the point you are making, it's not through lack of trying on my part. I've had multiple people in, and it's possible I've been unlucky. However, the reality is probably that every person has a different solution depending on their own experience. Just as on here, some have said accumulator, some have said blockage, some have said pipe size. They're all guesses based on experience, which I appreciate, as they have given me ideas to look into. There'll be some here who understand the science behind it, and it's those I'm asking to help to explain what I'm seeing.

One of the questions I asked at the beginning of this thread is quite a straightforward one. Would 28mm pipes be beneficial even though the megaflo inlets and outlets are 22mm. Hopefully amongst all the noise about secondary returns and how incompetent the plumbers I've had so far are, somebody might be kind enough to answer the questions I raised.

 

[macackau]

Where abouts do you live? Someone on here might be able to help

 

[fezster]

I'm in se london. If there is someone, that'd be great.

I had two more guys round. Both said they'd probably upgrade the pipe size, but they couldn't guarantee it would fix it. One was very honest and said he'd recommend getting a commercial plumber as the distances are quite large. How would I go about finding commercial / semi commercial installers?

I also spoke to haetre sadia. They said this cylinder is capable of 74 l/m. They did say that it's possible the pressure reducing valve is malfunctioning and restricting flow. The problem I have with testing that is the outlets I have immediately after the prv is 15mm. It gives me 28 l/m. I don't think it's capable of delivering 50 l/m. Other than changing the prv speculatively, is there any other way of checking the flow through it?

 

[Pro Action]

I'd advise you find an unvented registered plumber to check the Megaflo installation before upgrading the pipe sizes. By law for safety purposes you must be unvented registered to work on a Megaflo.
The unvented registered plumber should also be able to help with the pipe sizing if that is necessary.

 

[fezster]

I'd advise you find an unvented registered plumber to check the Megaflo installation before upgrading the pipe sizes. By law for safety purposes you must be unvented registered to work on a Megaflo.
The unvented registered plumber should also be able to help with the pipe sizing if that is necessary.

Every plumber so far has been G3 certified. The cylinder was also serviced two weeks ago and the strainer cleaned. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[Staffy85]

I may be wrong but it sounds to me like your overall local water main pressure isn't good enough to support multiple outlets running at the same time, from post #7

" I also measured the pressure from a washing machine outlet (after my 3 bar megaflo prv) and got just over 1 bar pressure, with both taps running. Static pressure before the prv is 4 bar."

drops to just 1bar! I highly doubt upping the size to 28mm will help at all but that's my opinion and not fact...

 

[fezster]

I may be wrong but it sounds to me like your overall local water main pressure isn't good enough to support multiple outlets running at the same time, from post #7

" I also measured the pressure from a washing machine outlet (after my 3 bar megaflo prv) and got just over 1 bar pressure, with both taps running. Static pressure before the prv is 4 bar."

drops to just 1bar! I highly doubt upping the size to 28mm will help at all but that's my opinion and not fact...

Drops to 1 bar with 50 l/m flowing. I don't pretend to fully understand working pressure, but I think those are pretty good figures for multiple outlets.

However, I think the long and short of it is that even one outlet after my prv cannot deliver more than 28 l/m. I tried the washing machine pipe on its own, gave 28 l/m. Then put outside tap on (after prv) got 14 l/m on both (total 28) put the utility tap on and got 10, 10 and 8. These are all outlets after the prv and all within a few metres of it. The upstairs pipework doesn't even come into the equation. I'm more and more suspecting the prv is restricting flow.

Before my prv, one tap delivers 33 l/m and two taps deliver 50. The prv or the pipework just before and after it looks the suspect!

 

[Scott_D]

Post some pictures
Everyone is guessing based on your info and figures

 

[fezster]

Yes, of course. Here's pics going from right to left:

32mm MDPE incoming main.
Reduced to 25mm MDPE.
Reduced to 22mm copper.

Then it tee's down to the kitchen tap and outside tap.
Then the speedfit tee goes to an outside tap.
Then the water softener input and output, with bypass.

Then you have the blue isolation valve before the megaflo pressure reducing valve.
Immediately after this you have a tee going up to the balanced cold.
Then the megaflow pressure relief valve.
Speedfit reducing tee to outside tap.
There's a gate valve to isolate the megaflo input (not visible in the picture)
And you can just see the washing machine style tap before the megaflo inlet.

Hope that's useful.

 

[Pro Action]

If you are getting 1 bar working pressure on the ground floor the pressure on the upper floors is going to be less than this, so yes the working pressure could be a factor.

It's also possible that it could be a combination of factors such as pipe sizing and working pressure.

 

[fezster]

If you are getting 1 bar working pressure on the ground floor the pressure on the upper floors is going to be less than this, so yes the working pressure could be a factor.

It's also possible that it could be a combination of factors such as pipe sizing and working pressure.

See post #19. Static pressure is 2.5 bar (0.5 bar drop for 5m in height presumably), and working pressure with one shower running at 18 l/m is 2.1 bar.

 

[Scott_D]

Have you tried with the softener bypass open?

 

[Pro Action]

Is there a gate valve after the pressure relief valve?
If so that shouldn't be there, get a G3 certified plumber to remove that.

 

[fezster]

Have you tried with the softener bypass open?

Yup. Exactly the same. Softener is a Tapworks AD11 with high flow kit, so *should* be capable of 54 l/m.

 

[fezster]

Is there a gate valve after the pressure relief valve?
If so that shouldn't be there, get a G3 certified plumber to remove that.

There is. That's interesting advice - could you tell me why it shouldn't be there? And would it be causing the flow issues, or do you mean it shouldnt be there from a safety point of view? (It was the original G3 certified installer who put it there btw).

One other thing which occurred to me. I was reading the installation guide for various Reliance pressure reducing valves. They advise a minimum distance between IT and the balanced cold water take off. The instructions say this is to ensure "laminar flow". The megaflo instructions have no such advice. I wonder if my balanced cold should be slightly further away from the prv.

Edit - I see it's in the megaflo MI:

vii) No valve should be fitted between the 8 bar pressure relief valve and the Megaflo eco unit.

I wonder what the reason is though.

 

[fezster]

Thinking about it logically, it's in case the gate valve is closed shut if the cylinder were to rise in pressure uncontrollably and if the T&P relief valve were to fail. Useful to know and will have it removed, but doubt it's the cause of my problem.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thinking about it logically, it's in case the gate valve is closed shut if the cylinder were to rise in pressure uncontrollably and if the T&P relief valve were to fail. Useful to know and will have it removed, but doubt it's the cause of my problem.

Look at it again 🙂 think it's just for draining down

 

[Staffy85]

Drops to 1 bar with 50 l/m flowing. I don't pretend to fully understand working pressure, but I think those are pretty good figures for multiple outlets.

pressure and flow rate are two separate things as you probably know but also work together hand in hand, {your problem is showers not great when more then 1 is in use } , my theory is showers can be {they are} restrictive depending on the make/model some are more suited to unvented supplys rather then gravity fed {i.e more restrictive so not ideal for pressures under 1bar} , max/min pressures are stated with all showers in there manual , flow rate isn't your problem as it seems you have plenty of water readily available, if you have a restriction i.e a shower then you need a force {pressure} to force the water through to get a better flow at the shower oulet. the way I see it is that if your incoming main was 5bar not 4 then it would drop down to 2bar and not 1bar which would mean they would be twice as good!...

 

[fezster]

pressure and flow rate are two separate things as you probably know but also work together hand in hand, {your problem is showers not great when more then 1 is in use } , .

I agree with all you've said, except I've attached a gauge to the shower with one other shower running. It read 2.1 bar. Static was 2.5 bar. I.e. a 0.4 bar drop with 18 l/m flowing.

The one thing which is ringing alarm bells for me is the drain off valve just before the megaflo (see my last picture). It is able to deliver 28 l/m. Ignoring the fact it isn't delivering more (I'd expect it to match the outside tap before the PRV), what is surprising is that if I run any other outlet after the PRV, it reduces in flow so that the total of the 2 outlets delivers 28 l/m. And with 3 outlets, again they total 28 l/m.

This says to me the flow rate after my PRV (pressure reducing valve) is restricted to 28 l/m. I found an old thread on diynot where somebody had the same problem (and the same 28 l/m restriction):

Megaflow Pressure and Flow Rates | Page 4 | DIYnot Forums

I wonder whether the megaflo PRV just isnt capable of higher flow rates. I'd be interested to hear if anybody has witnessed themselves to say otherwise.

 

[fezster]

Update on this for the benefit of others. Increased the pipe size attached to the 32mm incoming main from 22mm to 28mm. And increased the megaflo output to 28mm as well as the balanced cold, for approximately 2-3 metres - whatever was accessible in the garage.

This has made all the difference. A single shower feels much better, but more importantly, even with all 3 showers running, they are all extremely good. I wouldnt say there is no drop off in performance, as there is. But it's not as dramatic and because performance has increased anyway, the drop is now on par (or better) than what I was getting with just one shower previously.

A few notes which are important:

1. I have a 22mm/ 3/4" bsp water softener sitting in between the 28mm pipework at the start. To put paid to the myth that there is no benefit to increasing pipe size downstream.

2. My gut feeling is that the 28mm pressure reducing valve has had a big impact on performance. Looking at the haetre sadia 22mm one, the orifice is tiny - how they claim to get 70 l/m through that, I don't know.

Hope this helps someone else.