3 year old new build flat - Powerflush required??

[Steven Ross-Watt]

Hi all - looking for some quick advice and all opinions welcomed!

Question: Is it really possible for a 3 year old new build flat Ideal Combi 35 to have "Multiple component failure due to poor water quality - drain down & powerflush required to inhibit future related issues, which are now unlikely to be covered under T&Cs"? The radiators and boiler and pipes etc were all brand new when the flat was built in a large complex 3 years ago and it hasn't been touched by anyone but Scottish Gas on their contract.

The recommendation is a £700 powerflush for a 3 year old system. The suggestion is that the water has too much chemical in it and that has caused blockages and issues. When the boiler is working, it heats the water and the radiators fine so any blockages don't seem to be in the radiators or pipework but potentially could be in the smaller pipes that feed the sensors of the boiler? To be clear, just feeding the boiler more water pressure doesn't fix the issue.

The history is something like this:

2014 - collected keys of new flat
Jan 2016 - F1 error. Low Water Pressure switch wiring looks incorrect. Fixed
Apr 2016 - Cleaned out blockage leading to LWP
Jul 2016 - Blockage and sensor fault. Replaced PCB
1 Jul 2017 - F1 error. Drained boiler. Checked LWP. Re-charged expansion tank. Boiler checked out okay
11 Jul 2017 - F1 error. Replaced Low Pressure Warning switch
20 Jul 2017 - F1 error again.. seeking advice from UKPLUMBERSFORUM!

It is hard to believe such a new system needs a full on powerflush to fix it. My experience is a powerflush takes hours and is for really bringing to life an old tired heating system and radiators in a house that has had rust in the radiators etc. I'd welcome any views or questions I should ask.

Thanks - Steven RW (moved to central heating forum!)

 

[Chuck]

This is probably one you should discuss with the solicitor that did the conveyancing before going further. You may have a case (sale of goods, breach of contract, etc.) against the housebuilder for selling you a heating system that was not installed with reasonable skill and care.

The suggestion is that the water has too much chemical in it and that has caused blockages and issues.

What I'd start with is who has said this? What are their qualifications and what tests have they had done? At first sight the explanation of cause is implausible because none of the normal types of inhibitors that are added to a new system will cause blockages even at ridiculously high concentrations. It's rare for new systems to be overdosed in any case because the stuff ain't cheap.

Now, if the original system was installed by a cowboy was leaking and got fixed by someone pouring in a lot of 'leak sealer', then maybe the additives played a part.

Some householder insurance policies include 'legal protection', which can help in these cases.

 

[Gasmk1]

if it does then the system has serious faults i think you should still be covered under your NHBC certificate

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

if it does then the system has serious faults i think you should still be covered under your NHBC certificate

Hi. On the move at the mo so a v quick reply. Scottish gas engineer claimed it had dirty water in the system and needed the powerflush. Other than being installed the only people ever to touch it are Scottish gas for servicing and repair s and gas safety cert.

Can I ask them to prove its dirty water in the system?

Thanks to you both for your response replies.

Steven RW

 

[Gasmk1]

yes you can simple test but make sure you are there when they do it

 

[doitmyself]

the only people ever to touch it are Scottish gas for servicing and repair s and gas safety cert.

A gas safety certificate is only obligatory for rental properties. If you are renting the property you should talk to your landlord as it is his responsibility to keep the heating system working properly.

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

A gas safety certificate is only obligatory for rental properties. If you are renting the property you should talk to your landlord as it is his responsibility to keep the heating system working properly.

I am the landlord. I'm doing whatever I can to get this fixed and that's why I took out the Scottish gas maintenance contract on what I was hoping would be a quite simple to maintain modern heating system.

Thx

 

[GH77]

What do you mean by "low water pressure switch wiring looks incorrect " ?

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

What do you mean by "low water pressure switch wiring looks incorrect " ?

Hi.

When I called Scottish gas today I asked them to read out a history of their visits to the property so that I could work out what the pattern of failures was (if any). I then typed it up as it was read out to me over the phone by their service person. So basically your guess is as good as mine.

It seemed like a higher number of failures and visits for a modern boiler in a modern flat to me. Though I don't have much of a valid or experienced opinion.

Thanks

Steven RW

 

[GH77]

The reason i ask is that there is no way to alter the wiring on the low water pressure switch, it has a fitted plug on both ends, one that fits into the sensor and the other to the pcb?

I don't personally like service plans/ insurance I think they offer poor value to the customers,

I think you should get a second opinion from a local gsr with a good reputation and recommendations and if you do require a powerflush then you can get one for more like £400

 

[snowhead]

Have Scottish Gas made any recommendations to you in the past that you haven't followed through?

You need to establish what the chemical is that there is too much of.
Is it too much inhibitor or too much of something introduced when the system has been refilled or topped up?

Scottish Gas appear to have drained the boiler 4 times related to the Low Pressure switch.
Was the inhibitor level checked after the boiler was topped up, it doesn't say so?
What were the results of the inhibitor tests each time?

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

GH77: I am at the mercy of what the engineer wrote on their log. I hear your point about it being a simple plug in device so no idea how the wiring can be wrong.

snowhead: on the 11th of July 2017 they left the flat and subsequently posted out a recommendation that it needed a powerflush due to dirty water in the system. I hadn't taken up that recommendation yet as it only arrived last week and I wanted to understand this issue was possible on a new system. I was investigating that when the F1 error occurred again today so I reached out on here.

When I called to get the history today I asked for the engineer to call me to walk through the current situation and explain it properly to me. The call back promise is within 48 hours. I will update as soon as that has happened.

The next thing I will do is be on site when Scottish Gas visit this time (I hadn't been so far and had just left them to fix it at a time that suited the tenants) and walk through the log of previous work and have it explained and shown to me. Items such as "incorrect wiring of LWP switch" etc. should be interesting to be shown how that is possible.

I will also ask the question about what exactly is wrong with the water in the system and ask to be shown some sort of test to demonstrate the levels. Again I will share that as soon as I have it.

Assuming that Scottish Gas are correct and the water inside the system is bad, it will be interesting to work out how that is possible. Was it a bad install with leak fix added or how else could bad water have got into the system? The water used to top the system up is just straight from the mains, so should be fresh drinkable water.

Thanks to all for input so far.

Steven RW

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

Have Scottish Gas made any recommendations to you in the past that you haven't followed through?

You need to establish what the chemical is that there is too much of.
Is it too much inhibitor or too much of something introduced when the system has been refilled or topped up?

Scottish Gas appear to have drained the boiler 4 times related to the Low Pressure switch.
Was the inhibitor level checked after the boiler was topped up, it doesn't say so?
What were the results of the inhibitor tests each time?

I hear you loud and clear. I don't know what the test results were as they were never discussed. I also don't know if they added inhibitor each time. Seems overkill if they are just draining a small portion of the system. I will ask for that to be explained too.

Thanks,
Steven RW

 

[GH77]

The reason i asked about the lwp switch was that it doesn't make sense, i'm glad you are going to ask for an explanation and will be interested to hear about it

 

[AWheating]

Update?

Could always send water sample to fernox or adey for analysis

 

[Steven Ross-Watt]

Thanks for all the advice.


Steps that I took after receiving all the advice:

1. I called the builder and asked them for their assistance, explaining the series of breakdowns and the fact Scottish Gas has said they will no longer cover the breakdowns under contract without a powerflush. They said they would reach out to the original installer if I provided my evidence of first year boiler service and the letter from Scottish Gas.
   
   
2. I also reached out to another local company for another point of view. Their view was that the system shouldn’t need a powerflush if it was built properly, serviced properly and if any small drainage had happened, proper inhibitor topped up as required. The original installed probably didn’t do the work properly. Wait and see what comes back from the builder/original installer.
   
   
3. I also reached out to Logic and took their advice. They didn't agree that the boiler should experience so many LWP failures and asked if I had ever seen inside one that had been replaced to see the gunk? I hadn't unfortunately as I hadn't been onsite for the repairs. Logic were happy to come out and see the boiler for a price and if there was anything fundamentally wrong with the boiler they would fix it for a set fee. They also said that if there was no issue with the boiler itself I could then get it powerflushed by an independent firm, as long as the documentation was provided and then go on service contract with the company that they themselves recommend/use. All in the Logic call out fee and the independent powerflush would add to the same charge as the Scottish Gas powerflush.
   
   
4. The original installer came back through the builder and said the system was installed properly at the time, flushed out and sentient inhibitor added. Proper servicing should have highlighted any issues with the amount of inhibitor which could have been impacted by items such as radiator removal (never happened) leaks (none to date) or any other need to drain the system (if small amounts of drainage was required for the individual fixes it was completed under contract by Scottish Gas. If large amounts of drainage had been needed I expect that would have meant cleaner water in the system as now would be younger than 4 years old..). The system was commissioned 3.5 years ago and our company can no longer be held responsible.
   
   
5. I replied that all servicing had been completed with appropriate evidence and asked if many other flats in the large block had experienced the same issue (not expecting them to tell me..). Builder said they couldn’t help me as it was the first time it had been raised with them.
   
   
6. I replied that I had a maintenance contract with Scottish Gas and that they were fixing the boiler on what seemed a regular set of breakdowns and once they highlighted it wasn’t a regular set of issues, I raised it with you immediately. Are you suggesting that I should raise each issue with the boiler to you even when the contract covers the fix? Also highlighting that the system had been serviced and that I had reached out to the Gas Safe Register for their input.
   
   
7. The builder came back to me and said they could be of no further (lol?) assistance.

Soooo with the pressing need to get the boiler fixed, I had a couple of options. All in they looked like they were all going to cost me about the same as Scottish Gas powerflush and the risk with moving companies was that they would be taking on someone else’s problems and I would be at risk of paying extra for the initial investigation. So I paid for Scottish Gas to complete the powerflush to get the system back up and running. Guess what? The water that initially came out of the system was utterly black/brown horrible water. I also asked them to take a water sample before it was fixed so I could understand what was in the water and why it was so black.


My view on that is that highlights that the system had been running without inhibitor or a proper flush right from the build date 3.5 years ago.


I felt that I was getting nowhere with the builder and that moving to another contract would mean cancelling my current obligations and paying for an initial assessment and take on that wouldn’t have been much cheaper that Scottish Gas and the new company wouldn’t have the history with the system so they wouldn’t be in a position to accept responsibility to fix any other issues that occurred. I was worried I would get “yeah that just highlights something else they didn’t do right in the last 3 years, sorry we can’t cover that” but I now know Scottish Gas cannot do that because I have carried out their request for the powerflush.


The system is up and running perfectly and no issues in the last two weeks.


Thanks for all input, it was appreciated and I really did dig in with the builder mentioning Gas Safe Register, Citizens Advice, Independent company advice taken etc.


Steven RW

 

[jtsplumbing]

Why is it that the main gas company's BG & Scottish gas like nothing better than push there cure all solution the infamous Power Flush ! its about time this was looked into one of the biggest rip offs in the heating industry, and they are masters at it.

 

[jtsplumbing]

What a con ! SG have been looking after this system since new and you have to pay out for them to fix a problem that was Proberly caused by them in the first place how the water in your system is this bad after 4 years is almost unbelievable, Better of telling SG to stuff their contract & either sign up with boiler manufacture or use a local gas engineer I'm certain you would get much better service than SG, why do people think that using SG/BG they will get better service at a better price